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RHS vs AOS Awards
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:36:36 GMT, "J Fortuna"
wrote: P.S.: Another thought: "K Barrett" wrote in message news:9npqd.110410$5K2.16436@attbi_s03... If you looked in Wildcatt for previous AOS awards remember that Wildcatt doesn't include any of the awards from the Register of Awards (the RA). So there's a whole mess o' previous awards that aren't listed. Both Kath and Joanna have points. I am going to try for another couple. Ever been the second to say something is beautiful? Most people don't want to reinforce another's position. So most judges will pass on a plant that has a high award or a reasonably high award. They will think they are not going to score the plant higher, so it is a waste of time to score it. Sometimes it is a case of "that is such an old cross we should be looking for something new and better." Few stop to ask if there is new and if it is better. All that said... Joanna's point that RHS and AOS judging is different. RHS judging never looks at the flower (even in ribbon judging) until the plant has pasted muster. If the plant is not in good shape the flower can not be at it's best. I recently ribbon judged with an RHS judge on our judging team. It was very interesting. Kath said it took one judge to nominate something for scoring. It also often takes one nay sayer to stop a judging. If one of the senior judges says something very negative about a breeding line, plant age, or style, often the process will stall. It is after all an educated opinion of the condition of the flower and/or plant on a specific day at a specific time in the bloom cycle of the plant. SuE http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php |
#2
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Hi Gene,
This is not a case of who is right. Judging is all about metrics. A metric is defined and plants are than compared to this metric and rated. There is no reason to think different organizations will select the same metric. Along those same lines, when I am considering plants to put in my greenhouses I use a metric based on profit potential. A few years back I had a two spike phal pulled from a show display, after measurements and judge discussions it was passed on. After judging, the head judge pulled me aside to discuss the plant. She told me the plant had everything for an award except the flower size was a bit small. She recommended that next year I cut off the second spike as soon as it started to show with the hope that the plant would put the extra energy into the remaining spike and maybe the flower size would cut mustard. When selling plants, I get more money for a two spike plant than a one spiker. Even at a higher price, the two spiker with its marginally smaller flowers will sell first. With my metric for plants, the recommendation of cutting off the second spike seemed silly, but when rating a plant by the AOS metric it made perfect sense. Around here we have a game. When AQ arrives we go to the color picture section and based solely on the picture and the award granted, we pick plants we think belong to judges. We are very good at it. I like to think this is not a sign that the judging system is corrupt or broken, but instead just shows that the judges are in tune to their metric and understand what will be awarded by their metric. When considering plants for your collection, in addition to the AOS judging metrics I think the consumer's metric should also rate traits such as plant vigor, bloom last time, number of bloomings a year, number of spikes produced, time till first bloom for seedlings, conditions required and personal preferences of flower colors, shapes and patterns. Pat |
#3
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All of what you say is pretty logical from where I am reading. The quoted
part below made me smile. What is fun is listening to one group of judges talk about the awards given by other groups as they decide if the flower in front of them is worth scoring. It seems each judging group develops a somewhat different culture or metric. It is too bad you can't take the same inflorescence to several area judgings to see whose metric best agrees with your own. From where I am setting it seems like the only thing they have to loose, if this were allowed, is their divergent metrics. If I say anymore about judging I'll just get myself all twisted up and be useless for the rest of the day. Love the judges, hate the judgments. ....unless they are in my favor, of course. "Pat Brennan" wrote in message ... Hi Gene, Around here we have a game. When AQ arrives we go to the color picture section and based solely on the picture and the award granted, we pick plants we think belong to judges. We are very good at it. I like to think this is not a sign that the judging system is corrupt or broken, but instead just shows that the judges are in tune to their metric and understand what will be awarded by their metric. |
#4
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When selling plants, I get more money for a two spike plant than a one spiker. Even at a higher price, the two spiker with its marginally smaller flowers will sell first. With my metric for plants, the recommendation of cutting off the second spike seemed silly, but when rating a plant by the AOS metric it made perfect sense. Well, size is only ten points... For phals, floriferousness is also ten points... So they should cancel out. Some points are more equal than others, it seems. Around here we have a game. When AQ arrives we go to the color picture section and based solely on the picture and the award granted, we pick plants we think belong to judges. We are very good at it. I like to think this is not a sign that the judging system is corrupt or broken, but instead just shows that the judges are in tune to their metric and understand what will be awarded by their metric. At least around here, most of the plants taken to a judging are owned by judges... Can't award something we don't see. I know that I don't take a plant to judging unless I think it is likely to get an award. I've been burned that way several times - we have awarded plants of the same cross that I have in my collection, my flowers are better but not at judging... I hate that. Actually since my standards are so high I don't take many plants to judging... Rob -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list ) |
#5
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Pat,
I agree with you on the profit potential metrics. It would be great for you to have lots of FCC certificates but it's customer demand that pays the heating bill. You have to grow plants that people want to display in their homes. Us crazy collectors don't buy enough to pay the bills. Do you feel an FCC from the RHS is equal to an FCC from the AOS? Does one award increase the value of the cross more than the other? I see lots of awards for plants from different groups. Is there a ranking of RHS awards are worth more than CSA, CSA worth more than HOS, etc? I guess I've always been tuned to look for AOS awards as a measure of a plant that has good potential. When I see these other awards from other groups I don't really give them the credit they deserve and maybe I should. Gene "Pat Brennan" wrote in message ... Hi Gene, This is not a case of who is right. Judging is all about metrics. A metric is defined and plants are than compared to this metric and rated. There is no reason to think different organizations will select the same metric. Along those same lines, when I am considering plants to put in my greenhouses I use a metric based on profit potential. A few years back I had a two spike phal pulled from a show display, after measurements and judge discussions it was passed on. After judging, the head judge pulled me aside to discuss the plant. She told me the plant had everything for an award except the flower size was a bit small. She recommended that next year I cut off the second spike as soon as it started to show with the hope that the plant would put the extra energy into the remaining spike and maybe the flower size would cut mustard. When selling plants, I get more money for a two spike plant than a one spiker. Even at a higher price, the two spiker with its marginally smaller flowers will sell first. With my metric for plants, the recommendation of cutting off the second spike seemed silly, but when rating a plant by the AOS metric it made perfect sense. Around here we have a game. When AQ arrives we go to the color picture section and based solely on the picture and the award granted, we pick plants we think belong to judges. We are very good at it. I like to think this is not a sign that the judging system is corrupt or broken, but instead just shows that the judges are in tune to their metric and understand what will be awarded by their metric. When considering plants for your collection, in addition to the AOS judging metrics I think the consumer's metric should also rate traits such as plant vigor, bloom last time, number of bloomings a year, number of spikes produced, time till first bloom for seedlings, conditions required and personal preferences of flower colors, shapes and patterns. Pat |
#6
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:08:29 GMT, "Gene Schurg"
wrote: Pat, I agree with you on the profit potential metrics. It would be great for you to have lots of FCC certificates but it's customer demand that pays the heating bill. I guess I've always been tuned to look for AOS awards as a measure of a plant that has good potential. When I see these other awards from other groups I don't really give them the credit they deserve and maybe I should. Gene "Pat Brennan" wrote in message ... Hi Gene, This is not a case of who is right. Judging is all about metrics. A metric is defined and plants are than compared to this metric and rated. There are really 3 judging points in an AOS judging. First the plant as picked from a table of entries to be looked at closely. Second the judges decide to score or pass on judging this blooming of the plant. Third they each receive a score card on which they write a numeric value for color, size, number of flowers, shape and form of the dorsal, of the petals, of the lip/pouch. The sum of all these individual points is averaged over the team and we have our numeric score. It is the first and second decision points that are often the most difficult to cross. This is where the eye has to be caught and the mind engaged favorably for the plant. Many judges are more influenced by the 'size' of the flower or the different color when they decide to score or not score a plant. When they do score the plants these items have a much smaller influence. As to Metrics - - Other than the RHS requiring a well grown plant under a well grown flower, just by their judging style; I know of none that suggests a lesser requirement for beautiful flowers from one group or another. I would just remember that as someone noted HCC's here sometimes are a dime a dozen. That the judging is one groups (usually 5-7 people) opinion on a specific day of a specific bloom spike. If YOU like it, if YOU think it is as perfect an example of its type, YOU should celebrate it and enjoy. SuE http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php |
#7
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Your first step may or may not happen. In the Atlanta center every plant
goes to a judging team for consideration. -danny There are really 3 judging points in an AOS judging. First the plant as picked from a table of entries to be looked at closely. Second the judges decide to score or pass on judging this blooming of the plant. Third they each receive a score card on which they write a numeric value for color, size, number of flowers, shape and form of the dorsal, of the petals, of the lip/pouch. The sum of all these individual points is averaged over the team and we have our numeric score. |
#8
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Gene,
I do not know much about the CSA and HOS awards, sorry. I have seen some pretty weak BM & SM/WOC, but it could be they were just old awards. I have seen plants with awards from orchid societies in Asia and expect it is time to learn about these award systems. As has already been said, AOS and RHS awards measure different things. I think of RHS as sort of AOS award and AOS ribbon judging combined into one. It is a special plant that can carry both awards. As to which award raises the plant value more . . .I could get myself into so much trouble here. I have made my living selling blooming plants for over a decade now and I have found that an award does not really change a plants value. I know this is not true for all orchid businesses, especially those marketing non blooming plants. Before anyone calls me nuts, look at the flask and plug offerings from the major cloning labs, very few of the plants will be carrying awards and those which do have awards carry no premium; look at the orchids for sale in the box stores or other major outlets and try to find a price difference between awarded and nonawarded plants; or even go to an orchid show and try to find a relationship between price and award level of the blooming plants being offered. I disagree with those that say an AOS award is a good measure for selecting plants for ownership or breeding. The system does not consider factors essential for making those measures. Instead I view the judging system as the AOS means for tracking and documenting the current state of orchid flowers. In a recent survey of judges, 23% of the judges said they would not award a plant if an equal plant from the same cross had been awarded a year before. The second plant is just as good as the first with or without the award, AOS has documented the cross with the first award and it is time to move on. The state of orchid flowers moves fairly quickly. In many cases flower quality that was awarded five years ago would not even be considered today. An award without knowing the date of the award is pretty meaningless for assessing the flower quality. A cross is most likely to be at least 4 years old before a plant is mature enough to be awarded. If after the award it is sent to the lab, it is another two years before clone flasks start to be return. Compot, 2.5" pot, 4" pot - at least another 3 years before the clones are blooming, nine years after the cross was first made. Buying awarded clone might not always put the best quality flowers in your collection when seedlings a couple of generations ahead of the clones are also offered. In all of this please do not get me wrong. I am always honored and a bit humbled when granted an AOS award. I addition it is always very cool when a plant you are currently breeding with or have already sent out for cloning is pulled out of an exhibit and granted an award. Pat "Gene Schurg" wrote in message ink.net... Pat, I agree with you on the profit potential metrics. It would be great for you to have lots of FCC certificates but it's customer demand that pays the heating bill. You have to grow plants that people want to display in their homes. Us crazy collectors don't buy enough to pay the bills. Do you feel an FCC from the RHS is equal to an FCC from the AOS? Does one award increase the value of the cross more than the other? I see lots of awards for plants from different groups. Is there a ranking of RHS awards are worth more than CSA, CSA worth more than HOS, etc? I guess I've always been tuned to look for AOS awards as a measure of a plant that has good potential. When I see these other awards from other groups I don't really give them the credit they deserve and maybe I should. Gene |
#9
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Pat,
All good points. Nothing beats seeing a plant in bloom so you can judge for yourself if you like it. No one wants to grow a flower and not enjoy it. I hope all is well out in the valley. Gene "Pat Brennan" wrote in message ... Gene, I do not know much about the CSA and HOS awards, sorry. I have seen some pretty weak BM & SM/WOC, but it could be they were just old awards. I have seen plants with awards from orchid societies in Asia and expect it is time to learn about these award systems. As has already been said, AOS and RHS awards measure different things. I think of RHS as sort of AOS award and AOS ribbon judging combined into one. It is a special plant that can carry both awards. As to which award raises the plant value more . . .I could get myself into so much trouble here. I have made my living selling blooming plants for over a decade now and I have found that an award does not really change a plants value. I know this is not true for all orchid businesses, especially those marketing non blooming plants. Before anyone calls me nuts, look at the flask and plug offerings from the major cloning labs, very few of the plants will be carrying awards and those which do have awards carry no premium; look at the orchids for sale in the box stores or other major outlets and try to find a price difference between awarded and nonawarded plants; or even go to an orchid show and try to find a relationship between price and award level of the blooming plants being offered. I disagree with those that say an AOS award is a good measure for selecting plants for ownership or breeding. The system does not consider factors essential for making those measures. Instead I view the judging system as the AOS means for tracking and documenting the current state of orchid flowers. In a recent survey of judges, 23% of the judges said they would not award a plant if an equal plant from the same cross had been awarded a year before. The second plant is just as good as the first with or without the award, AOS has documented the cross with the first award and it is time to move on. The state of orchid flowers moves fairly quickly. In many cases flower quality that was awarded five years ago would not even be considered today. An award without knowing the date of the award is pretty meaningless for assessing the flower quality. A cross is most likely to be at least 4 years old before a plant is mature enough to be awarded. If after the award it is sent to the lab, it is another two years before clone flasks start to be return. Compot, 2.5" pot, 4" pot - at least another 3 years before the clones are blooming, nine years after the cross was first made. Buying awarded clone might not always put the best quality flowers in your collection when seedlings a couple of generations ahead of the clones are also offered. In all of this please do not get me wrong. I am always honored and a bit humbled when granted an AOS award. I addition it is always very cool when a plant you are currently breeding with or have already sent out for cloning is pulled out of an exhibit and granted an award. Pat "Gene Schurg" wrote in message ink.net... Pat, I agree with you on the profit potential metrics. It would be great for you to have lots of FCC certificates but it's customer demand that pays the heating bill. You have to grow plants that people want to display in their homes. Us crazy collectors don't buy enough to pay the bills. Do you feel an FCC from the RHS is equal to an FCC from the AOS? Does one award increase the value of the cross more than the other? I see lots of awards for plants from different groups. Is there a ranking of RHS awards are worth more than CSA, CSA worth more than HOS, etc? I guess I've always been tuned to look for AOS awards as a measure of a plant that has good potential. When I see these other awards from other groups I don't really give them the credit they deserve and maybe I should. Gene |
#10
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and I have found that an award does not really change a
plants value. Not for clonable plants but for Paphs and Phrags the value definately goes up. Depending on what the plant is newly awarded plants command a big premium. Some whites seem to demand an tremendous premium some well over 2k, while others are usually in the $250-500 range per growth. In time the cost does come down somewhat unless the plant is a good breeder. Prior to cloning most other awarded orchids also commanded premiums but with the advent of the cloning process and production of thousands of identical plants the prices came down to less than $25 for a mature plant and in some cases under $10. |
#11
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Yeah...Look at Paph rothchildianum.
An FCC awarded plant is outrageously expensive. Gene "TRAINMAN9" wrote in message ... and I have found that an award does not really change a plants value. Not for clonable plants but for Paphs and Phrags the value definately goes up. Depending on what the plant is newly awarded plants command a big premium. Some whites seem to demand an tremendous premium some well over 2k, while others are usually in the $250-500 range per growth. In time the cost does come down somewhat unless the plant is a good breeder. Prior to cloning most other awarded orchids also commanded premiums but with the advent of the cloning process and production of thousands of identical plants the prices came down to less than $25 for a mature plant and in some cases under $10. |
#12
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and I have found that an award does not really change a
plants value. Not for clonable plants but for Paphs and Phrags the value definately goes up. Depending on what the plant is newly awarded plants command a big premium. Some whites seem to demand an tremendous premium some well over 2k, while others are usually in the $250-500 range per growth. In time the cost does come down somewhat unless the plant is a good breeder. Prior to cloning most other awarded orchids also commanded premiums but with the advent of the cloning process and production of thousands of identical plants the prices came down to less than $25 for a mature plant and in some cases under $10. |
#13
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"Gene Schurg" wrote in
nk.net: I have a Paphiopedilum F. C. Puddle 'Bodnant' FCC/RHS (Actaeus x Astarte) division about to come into bloom. I noticed it was awarded an FCC from the RHS but I don't seem to find any AOS awards for this or any F. C. Puddle. Why is this? Are the RHS awards easier to get than an AOS award? Or was this awarded a long long time ago? Good growing, Gene Gene, That is a classic plant, and was awarded years ago. It is still a goody to have I'm sure. As for the award by AOS, it could be for several reasons that it was not granted an AOS award, but this is not because the RHS has lower standards. I think most of us regard the RHS (and JOS and other organizations) as having equal standards. And, let's not let AOS get too high on the horse either. I've spoken to commercial growers who have expressed wonder why some plants ever got an AOS award. One even cynically remarked that it was because of judges giving awards to their friends' plants! ...But that was probably sour grapes talking, no? Bob Dickow, Moscow Idaho ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#14
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Susan,
I'm not sure I understand your point. If a plant gets an FCC/RHS then AOS judges will pass on scoring it? If this is what you are saying then is an FCC/RHS as "valuable" as an FCC/AOS? Somehow it doesn't seem that way. Gene "Susan Erickson" wrote in message ... On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:36:36 GMT, "J Fortuna" wrote: P.S.: Another thought: "K Barrett" wrote in message news:9npqd.110410$5K2.16436@attbi_s03... If you looked in Wildcatt for previous AOS awards remember that Wildcatt doesn't include any of the awards from the Register of Awards (the RA). So there's a whole mess o' previous awards that aren't listed. Both Kath and Joanna have points. I am going to try for another couple. Ever been the second to say something is beautiful? Most people don't want to reinforce another's position. So most judges will pass on a plant that has a high award or a reasonably high award. They will think they are not going to score the plant higher, so it is a waste of time to score it. Sometimes it is a case of "that is such an old cross we should be looking for something new and better." Few stop to ask if there is new and if it is better. All that said... Joanna's point that RHS and AOS judging is different. RHS judging never looks at the flower (even in ribbon judging) until the plant has pasted muster. If the plant is not in good shape the flower can not be at it's best. I recently ribbon judged with an RHS judge on our judging team. It was very interesting. Kath said it took one judge to nominate something for scoring. It also often takes one nay sayer to stop a judging. If one of the senior judges says something very negative about a breeding line, plant age, or style, often the process will stall. It is after all an educated opinion of the condition of the flower and/or plant on a specific day at a specific time in the bloom cycle of the plant. SuE http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php |
#15
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I don't know how often the AOS and other organizaitons award and FCC
to the same clone but it is not unheard of. A quick search of my picture reference database found pictures for 11 different plants given FCC's by both the AOS and RHS. That doesn't include plants which received FCC's from both organizations, but were not labeled with both in the book or catalogue at the time of publication of the picture. The plants I found we Angulocaste Tudor 'Bill Rinaman' Brassolaeliacattleya. Norman's Bay 'Low' Cymbidium Bourgondian 'Chateau' or 'Chateaux' Doritaenopsis Red Coral 'Fuschia' Laelia tenebrosa 'Walton Grange' Paphiopedilum Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable' Phragmipedium Memoria Dick Clements 'Jersey' Sophrolaeliocattleya. Falcon 'Alexanderi' Sophrolaeliocattleya. Falcon 'Westonbirt' Vuylstekeara Cambria 'Plush' Vuylstekeara Edna 'Stamperland' On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:53:32 GMT, "Gene Schurg" wrote: Susan, I'm not sure I understand your point. If a plant gets an FCC/RHS then AOS judges will pass on scoring it? If this is what you are saying then is an FCC/RHS as "valuable" as an FCC/AOS? Somehow it doesn't seem that way. Gene "Susan Erickson" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:36:36 GMT, "J Fortuna" wrote: P.S.: Another thought: "K Barrett" wrote in message news:9npqd.110410$5K2.16436@attbi_s03... If you looked in Wildcatt for previous AOS awards remember that Wildcatt doesn't include any of the awards from the Register of Awards (the RA). So there's a whole mess o' previous awards that aren't listed. Both Kath and Joanna have points. I am going to try for another couple. Ever been the second to say something is beautiful? Most people don't want to reinforce another's position. So most judges will pass on a plant that has a high award or a reasonably high award. They will think they are not going to score the plant higher, so it is a waste of time to score it. Sometimes it is a case of "that is such an old cross we should be looking for something new and better." Few stop to ask if there is new and if it is better. All that said... Joanna's point that RHS and AOS judging is different. RHS judging never looks at the flower (even in ribbon judging) until the plant has pasted muster. If the plant is not in good shape the flower can not be at it's best. I recently ribbon judged with an RHS judge on our judging team. It was very interesting. Kath said it took one judge to nominate something for scoring. It also often takes one nay sayer to stop a judging. If one of the senior judges says something very negative about a breeding line, plant age, or style, often the process will stall. It is after all an educated opinion of the condition of the flower and/or plant on a specific day at a specific time in the bloom cycle of the plant. SuE http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php |
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