I don't know how often the AOS and other organizaitons award and FCC
to the same clone but it is not unheard of.
A quick search of my picture reference database found pictures for 11
different plants given FCC's by both the AOS and RHS. That doesn't
include plants which received FCC's from both organizations, but were
not labeled with both in the book or catalogue at the time of
publication of the picture.

The plants I found we

Angulocaste Tudor 'Bill Rinaman'
Brassolaeliacattleya. Norman's Bay 'Low'
Cymbidium Bourgondian 'Chateau' or 'Chateaux'
Doritaenopsis Red Coral 'Fuschia'
Laelia tenebrosa 'Walton Grange'
Paphiopedilum Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable'
Phragmipedium Memoria Dick Clements 'Jersey'
Sophrolaeliocattleya. Falcon 'Alexanderi'
Sophrolaeliocattleya. Falcon 'Westonbirt'
Vuylstekeara Cambria 'Plush'
Vuylstekeara Edna 'Stamperland'

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:53:32 GMT, "Gene Schurg"
wrote:

Susan,

I'm not sure I understand your point. If a plant gets an FCC/RHS then AOS
judges will pass on scoring it?

If this is what you are saying then is an FCC/RHS as "valuable" as an
FCC/AOS? Somehow it doesn't seem that way.

Gene


"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:36:36 GMT, "J Fortuna"
wrote:

P.S.: Another thought:
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:9npqd.110410$5K2.16436@attbi_s03...
If you looked in Wildcatt for previous AOS awards remember that
Wildcatt
doesn't include any of the awards from the Register of Awards (the
RA).
So
there's a whole mess o' previous awards that aren't listed.


Both Kath and Joanna have points. I am going to try for another
couple. Ever been the second to say something is beautiful?
Most people don't want to reinforce another's position. So most
judges will pass on a plant that has a high award or a reasonably
high award. They will think they are not going to score the
plant higher, so it is a waste of time to score it. Sometimes it
is a case of "that is such an old cross we should be looking for
something new and better." Few stop to ask if there is new and
if it is better. All that said...

Joanna's point that RHS and AOS judging is different. RHS
judging never looks at the flower (even in ribbon judging) until
the plant has pasted muster. If the plant is not in good shape
the flower can not be at it's best. I recently ribbon judged
with an RHS judge on our judging team. It was very interesting.

Kath said it took one judge to nominate something for scoring.
It also often takes one nay sayer to stop a judging. If one of
the senior judges says something very negative about a breeding
line, plant age, or style, often the process will stall. It is
after all an educated opinion of the condition of the flower
and/or plant on a specific day at a specific time in the bloom
cycle of the plant.


SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Bob,

First of all...great site you have. I use it often to check names of plants
and where to go to find a picture.

My point of this thread is that I would expect that a plant awarded an FCC
from the RHS (or other group) should also score very high by other
organizations. At least that is what I thought until this discussion. I
find it interesting that a search of your files only yielded a short list of
plants with FCCs from both organizations.

It appears that a plant with an FCC from AOS may not get equal consideration
by the RHS and vice versa.

Not that any of this really matters in the big scheme of things....just
interesting observation.

Good Growing,
Gene





"Bob Betts" wrote in message
...
I don't know how often the AOS and other organizaitons award and FCC
to the same clone but it is not unheard of.
A quick search of my picture reference database found pictures for 11
different plants given FCC's by both the AOS and RHS. That doesn't
include plants which received FCC's from both organizations, but were
not labeled with both in the book or catalogue at the time of
publication of the picture.

The plants I found we

Angulocaste Tudor 'Bill Rinaman'
Brassolaeliacattleya. Norman's Bay 'Low'
Cymbidium Bourgondian 'Chateau' or 'Chateaux'
Doritaenopsis Red Coral 'Fuschia'
Laelia tenebrosa 'Walton Grange'
Paphiopedilum Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable'
Phragmipedium Memoria Dick Clements 'Jersey'
Sophrolaeliocattleya. Falcon 'Alexanderi'
Sophrolaeliocattleya. Falcon 'Westonbirt'
Vuylstekeara Cambria 'Plush'
Vuylstekeara Edna 'Stamperland'

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:53:32 GMT, "Gene Schurg"
wrote:

Susan,

I'm not sure I understand your point. If a plant gets an FCC/RHS then
AOS
judges will pass on scoring it?

If this is what you are saying then is an FCC/RHS as "valuable" as an
FCC/AOS? Somehow it doesn't seem that way.

Gene


"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:36:36 GMT, "J Fortuna"
wrote:

P.S.: Another thought:
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:9npqd.110410$5K2.16436@attbi_s03...
If you looked in Wildcatt for previous AOS awards remember that
Wildcatt
doesn't include any of the awards from the Register of Awards
(the
RA).
So
there's a whole mess o' previous awards that aren't listed.


Both Kath and Joanna have points. I am going to try for another
couple. Ever been the second to say something is beautiful?
Most people don't want to reinforce another's position. So most
judges will pass on a plant that has a high award or a reasonably
high award. They will think they are not going to score the
plant higher, so it is a waste of time to score it. Sometimes it
is a case of "that is such an old cross we should be looking for
something new and better." Few stop to ask if there is new and
if it is better. All that said...

Joanna's point that RHS and AOS judging is different. RHS
judging never looks at the flower (even in ribbon judging) until
the plant has pasted muster. If the plant is not in good shape
the flower can not be at it's best. I recently ribbon judged
with an RHS judge on our judging team. It was very interesting.

Kath said it took one judge to nominate something for scoring.
It also often takes one nay sayer to stop a judging. If one of
the senior judges says something very negative about a breeding
line, plant age, or style, often the process will stall. It is
after all an educated opinion of the condition of the flower
and/or plant on a specific day at a specific time in the bloom
cycle of the plant.


SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Thanks for the complement. I am happy you (and hopefully others) find
it useful. The small project of indexing our own small collection of
orchid books (about 170 at last count) to help my wife find a picture
seems to have gotten out of hand over the last few years. I sometimes
wonder whether I should keep doing it since it takes a lot of time.
Comments like yours tell me it is worth continuing to do.

As far as the few hits go, I am sure there are a lot of reasons - not
the least of which is that FCC's are few and far between to begin
with.
Also, I have learned, from typing over 120,000 records, that even
though pretty clear guidelines or rules exist for typing the name of a
plant, they are often not followed, even by people and organizations
that should know better. Plants that have been awarded sometimes
appear in picture lables without the award designation, either because
the book was printed before the plant was awarded or the author and
publisher simply didn't put it in. Of the 120,212 records in the
database, only 1,976 of them have the string FCC in them and of course
that is not 1,976 different plants because pictures of some plants
appear many times (e.g. Blc. Malworth 'Orchidglade' appears 29 times
with the FCC designation but is in the database 35 times in total
including once with no award designation at all.

Also, when the plant is awarded by multiple organizations, the way it
is shown in the label may vary. A common way seems to be FCC/AOS-RHS
or FCC/RHS-AOS but I have also seen it printed as FCC/AOS, FCC/RHS and
the variations go on from there. The lack of consistancy makes it
difficult to find all the hits without doing multiple searches and
without being clairvoyant enough to guess all the search strings to
use.



On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 03:54:27 GMT, "Gene Schurg"
wrote:

Bob,

First of all...great site you have. I use it often to check names of plants
and where to go to find a picture.

My point of this thread is that I would expect that a plant awarded an FCC
from the RHS (or other group) should also score very high by other
organizations. At least that is what I thought until this discussion. I
find it interesting that a search of your files only yielded a short list of
plants with FCCs from both organizations.

It appears that a plant with an FCC from AOS may not get equal consideration
by the RHS and vice versa.

Not that any of this really matters in the big scheme of things....just
interesting observation.

Good Growing,
Gene





"Bob Betts" wrote in message
...
I don't know how often the AOS and other organizaitons award and FCC
to the same clone but it is not unheard of.
A quick search of my picture reference database found pictures for 11
different plants given FCC's by both the AOS and RHS. That doesn't
include plants which received FCC's from both organizations, but were
not labeled with both in the book or catalogue at the time of
publication of the picture.

The plants I found we

Angulocaste Tudor 'Bill Rinaman'
Brassolaeliacattleya. Norman's Bay 'Low'
Cymbidium Bourgondian 'Chateau' or 'Chateaux'
Doritaenopsis Red Coral 'Fuschia'
Laelia tenebrosa 'Walton Grange'
Paphiopedilum Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable'
Phragmipedium Memoria Dick Clements 'Jersey'
Sophrolaeliocattleya. Falcon 'Alexanderi'
Sophrolaeliocattleya. Falcon 'Westonbirt'
Vuylstekeara Cambria 'Plush'
Vuylstekeara Edna 'Stamperland'

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:53:32 GMT, "Gene Schurg"
wrote:

Susan,

I'm not sure I understand your point. If a plant gets an FCC/RHS then
AOS
judges will pass on scoring it?

If this is what you are saying then is an FCC/RHS as "valuable" as an
FCC/AOS? Somehow it doesn't seem that way.

Gene


"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:36:36 GMT, "J Fortuna"
wrote:

P.S.: Another thought:
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:9npqd.110410$5K2.16436@attbi_s03...
If you looked in Wildcatt for previous AOS awards remember that
Wildcatt
doesn't include any of the awards from the Register of Awards
(the
RA).
So
there's a whole mess o' previous awards that aren't listed.


Both Kath and Joanna have points. I am going to try for another
couple. Ever been the second to say something is beautiful?
Most people don't want to reinforce another's position. So most
judges will pass on a plant that has a high award or a reasonably
high award. They will think they are not going to score the
plant higher, so it is a waste of time to score it. Sometimes it
is a case of "that is such an old cross we should be looking for
something new and better." Few stop to ask if there is new and
if it is better. All that said...

Joanna's point that RHS and AOS judging is different. RHS
judging never looks at the flower (even in ribbon judging) until
the plant has pasted muster. If the plant is not in good shape
the flower can not be at it's best. I recently ribbon judged
with an RHS judge on our judging team. It was very interesting.

Kath said it took one judge to nominate something for scoring.
It also often takes one nay sayer to stop a judging. If one of
the senior judges says something very negative about a breeding
line, plant age, or style, often the process will stall. It is
after all an educated opinion of the condition of the flower
and/or plant on a specific day at a specific time in the bloom
cycle of the plant.


SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

I don't think an award from a different organization would affect a plant's
chances of getting an AOS award. There are a couple very good reasons why
most clones wouldn't have awards from both organizations:

- AOS gives a lot more awards than any other organization. There are more
judges, more judging centers, more judging sessions (probably 500-600 a year
including shows?) with AOS. RHS doesn't give very many awards.

- The plant would probably have to be exhibited in both the U.S. and U.K. to
get AOS and RHS awards. (I'm not sure if RHS does any overseas shows, I know
AOS judges who have gone to some shows in Asia and South America).

Also, if a plant is given an award by one organization and then is shown to
a different organization 10 or 20 (or more) years later, the plant may not
measure up to the current standards any more.

-danny

Gene Schurg wrote:

My point of this thread is that I would expect that a plant awarded an FCC
from the RHS (or other group) should also score very high by other
organizations. At least that is what I thought until this discussion. I
find it interesting that a search of your files only yielded a short list of
plants with FCCs from both organizations.

It appears that a plant with an FCC from AOS may not get equal consideration
by the RHS and vice versa.


Hmmm. Ok, I'll give my personal opinion as a probationary AOS judge
here. They can kick me out if I'm wrong... *grin* In my opinion, it is
not worthwhile to give a plant the same quality award from the AOS and
the RHS simultaneously. The purpose of the award system is to
acknowledge superior plants for purposes of advancing the horticultural
desirability of orchids. In other words, plants with awards are more
desirable than plants without awards, and the award designation helps
the public select better plants, and helps the breeder select better
crosses. Probably most importantly, although it shouldn't be, it is a
system for financially rewarding the grower of the awarded plant.

What does all that mean? It means as a breeder and plantsman, I
know that Paph. Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable' FCC/RHS is a damn fine
specimen of paphly beauty. I don't even need to see the picture, and
pictures lie anyway. I can purchase this plant and be assured that it
is of high quality. I can breed with this plant and presume that the
progeny will have a higher probability of being 'successful' than if I
use the Winston Churchill "Joe Schmoe" clone that I picked up off the
raffle table (although "Indomitable" is a more successful parent, if I
recall correctly). Does it supercede my own aesthetic reasoning? It
shouldn't. If my "Joe Schmoe" clone is nicer in some respect (color,
shape, etc) than some FCC or AM plant, then it is my choice to use it, I
just can't be assured that the plant buying public will be as apt to
purchase my cross. Their loss, and mine, if I'm a commercial grower.

Anyway, an FCC/RHS or an FCC/AOS is pretty much the same in my
book. The plants would be equally valuable. I don't see much point in
giving an AOS award to an RHS awarded plant. It just makes the
exhibitor pay another 35 dollars. It is quite another thing to promote
an AM/RHS to an FCC/AOS (or vice versa, I suppose). That is a higher
ranked award, and makes the plant correspondingly more valuable. I am
in favor of promoting awards when that is merited. We just did that on
a Phrag a few weeks ago (78pt HCC/AOS promoted to something well over 80
points AM).

Random ramblings on my last day of work...

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

Right on Rob, I love your "Random ramblings" & "Rob's rules"!
You say it's your last day of work, are you going on vacation or
are you retiring?
Also what is the name of the Phrag that was given 80 points?
--
Cheers Wendy

Remove PETERPAN for email reply

Rob Halgren wrote:
Gene Schurg wrote:

My point of this thread is that I would expect that a plant awarded
an FCC from the RHS (or other group) should also score very high by
other organizations. At least that is what I thought until this
discussion. I find it interesting that a search of your files only
yielded a short list of plants with FCCs from both organizations.

It appears that a plant with an FCC from AOS may not get equal
consideration by the RHS and vice versa.


Hmmm. Ok, I'll give my personal opinion as a probationary AOS
judge here. They can kick me out if I'm wrong... *grin* In my
opinion, it is not worthwhile to give a plant the same quality award
from the AOS and the RHS simultaneously. The purpose of the award
system is to acknowledge superior plants for purposes of advancing
the horticultural desirability of orchids. In other words, plants
with awards are more desirable than plants without awards, and the
award designation helps the public select better plants, and helps
the breeder select better crosses. Probably most importantly,
although it shouldn't be, it is a system for financially rewarding
the grower of the awarded plant.
What does all that mean? It means as a breeder and plantsman, I
know that Paph. Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable' FCC/RHS is a damn fine
specimen of paphly beauty. I don't even need to see the picture, and
pictures lie anyway. I can purchase this plant and be assured that it
is of high quality. I can breed with this plant and presume that the
progeny will have a higher probability of being 'successful' than if I
use the Winston Churchill "Joe Schmoe" clone that I picked up off the
raffle table (although "Indomitable" is a more successful parent, if I
recall correctly). Does it supercede my own aesthetic reasoning? It
shouldn't. If my "Joe Schmoe" clone is nicer in some respect (color,
shape, etc) than some FCC or AM plant, then it is my choice to use
it, I just can't be assured that the plant buying public will be as
apt to purchase my cross. Their loss, and mine, if I'm a commercial
grower.
Anyway, an FCC/RHS or an FCC/AOS is pretty much the same in my
book. The plants would be equally valuable. I don't see much point
in giving an AOS award to an RHS awarded plant. It just makes the
exhibitor pay another 35 dollars. It is quite another thing to
promote an AM/RHS to an FCC/AOS (or vice versa, I suppose). That is
a higher ranked award, and makes the plant correspondingly more
valuable. I am in favor of promoting awards when that is merited. We just
did that on a Phrag a few weeks ago (78pt HCC/AOS promoted to
something well over 80 points AM).

Random ramblings on my last day of work...

Rob

wendy7 wrote:

Right on Rob, I love your "Random ramblings" & "Rob's rules"!
You say it's your last day of work, are you going on vacation or
are you retiring?


I wish I was retiring... Actually I'm quite outspoken. No, I've
been offered a different position (still at MSU) at faculty rank, in a
different department. It would be stupid not to take it. However, I'm
treating myself to a month off in between. Although that will be more
like a month of working like a slave around the house (and greenhouse)
trying to catch up on 3 years worth of unfinished projects.

Also what is the name of the Phrag that was given 80 points?

What, I'm supposed to remember names? *grin* I remember what it looked like (pink). I remember the owner (Dot Potter Barnett). I remember that the previous award was last year (78pt HCC/AOS). I remember that we didn't realize it had a previous award (since it hadn't been published yet), and only discovered the HCC after we had given it... oh, 83 points, i think. I remember that the previous award was to one flower and one bud, this award had 9 flowers and multiple buds on a single inflorescence. And for those keeping score at home, it was growing in Ray's Prime Agra semihydroponic medium. Enough to convince me to try it, anyway. All that and I can't remember the name...

Rob


--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

Why wouldn't you want to give the same level AOS award to the plant? That
would put the plant in the AOS judging system, so that it could be used for
future comparison when considering other awards for the species/grex. Are
the RHS awards looked at by AOS judges when they are scoring a plant? I
didn't think that was the case. If someone didn't put XX/RHS on the tag,
would you even know it was an RHS awarded plant when you were looking at it
on the judging table?

If someone brings a plant to a monthly judging session, then your "It would
cost them another $35 dollars" argument wouldn't apply at all. If an
exhibitor in a show doesn't want to pay $35, they can simply mark their
plant "Not for AOS Judging". I know many judges are reluctant to do
something like upgrading an 80 point AM/AOS to an 85 point AM/AOS because
they don't think there's any point, and I kinda agree with them there.
Witholding an award from a plant because it has an award from a judging
organization in another country doesn't make any sense at all.

-danny

"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Gene Schurg wrote:

My point of this thread is that I would expect that a plant awarded an
FCC
from the RHS (or other group) should also score very high by other
organizations. At least that is what I thought until this discussion. I
find it interesting that a search of your files only yielded a short list
of
plants with FCCs from both organizations.

It appears that a plant with an FCC from AOS may not get equal
consideration
by the RHS and vice versa.


Hmmm. Ok, I'll give my personal opinion as a probationary AOS judge
here. They can kick me out if I'm wrong... *grin* In my opinion, it is
not worthwhile to give a plant the same quality award from the AOS and
the RHS simultaneously. The purpose of the award system is to
acknowledge superior plants for purposes of advancing the horticultural
desirability of orchids. In other words, plants with awards are more
desirable than plants without awards, and the award designation helps
the public select better plants, and helps the breeder select better
crosses. Probably most importantly, although it shouldn't be, it is a
system for financially rewarding the grower of the awarded plant.

What does all that mean? It means as a breeder and plantsman, I
know that Paph. Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable' FCC/RHS is a damn fine
specimen of paphly beauty. I don't even need to see the picture, and
pictures lie anyway. I can purchase this plant and be assured that it
is of high quality. I can breed with this plant and presume that the
progeny will have a higher probability of being 'successful' than if I
use the Winston Churchill "Joe Schmoe" clone that I picked up off the
raffle table (although "Indomitable" is a more successful parent, if I
recall correctly). Does it supercede my own aesthetic reasoning? It
shouldn't. If my "Joe Schmoe" clone is nicer in some respect (color,
shape, etc) than some FCC or AM plant, then it is my choice to use it, I
just can't be assured that the plant buying public will be as apt to
purchase my cross. Their loss, and mine, if I'm a commercial grower.

Anyway, an FCC/RHS or an FCC/AOS is pretty much the same in my
book. The plants would be equally valuable. I don't see much point in
giving an AOS award to an RHS awarded plant. It just makes the
exhibitor pay another 35 dollars. It is quite another thing to promote
an AM/RHS to an FCC/AOS (or vice versa, I suppose). That is a higher
ranked award, and makes the plant correspondingly more valuable. I am
in favor of promoting awards when that is merited. We just did that on
a Phrag a few weeks ago (78pt HCC/AOS promoted to something well over 80
points AM).

Random ramblings on my last day of work...

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

"danny" wrote in message
...
Why wouldn't you want to give the same level AOS award to the plant? That
would put the plant in the AOS judging system, so that it could be used
for
future comparison when considering other awards for the species/grex.


For what its worth, danny, I agree with you.


Are the RHS awards looked at by AOS judges when they are scoring a plant?


No they are not because they are not AOS awards. Nor are HOS or CSA awards
taken into account.



I didn't think that was the case. If someone didn't put XX/RHS on the
tag,
would you even know it was an RHS awarded plant when you were looking at
it on the judging table?


No you would not know it was an RHS awarded plant if you saw it on the
judging table. Because the RHS award aren't taken into account.



If someone brings a plant to a monthly judging session, then your "It
would
cost them another $35 dollars" argument wouldn't apply at all. If an
exhibitor in a show doesn't want to pay $35, they can simply mark their
plant "Not for AOS Judging". I know many judges are reluctant to do
something like upgrading an 80 point AM/AOS to an 85 point AM/AOS because
they don't think there's any point, and I kinda agree with them there.
Witholding an award from a plant because it has an award from a judging
organization in another country doesn't make any sense at all.


Again, for what its worth, I agree too. But I do see the value in awarding
a higher AM. Again it gets the flower's quality into the system.

K Barrett


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Gene Schurg wrote:

My point of this thread is that I would expect that a plant awarded an
FCC
from the RHS (or other group) should also score very high by other
organizations. At least that is what I thought until this discussion.
I
find it interesting that a search of your files only yielded a short
list
of
plants with FCCs from both organizations.

It appears that a plant with an FCC from AOS may not get equal
consideration
by the RHS and vice versa.


Hmmm. Ok, I'll give my personal opinion as a probationary AOS judge
here. They can kick me out if I'm wrong... *grin* In my opinion, it is
not worthwhile to give a plant the same quality award from the AOS and
the RHS simultaneously. The purpose of the award system is to
acknowledge superior plants for purposes of advancing the horticultural
desirability of orchids. In other words, plants with awards are more
desirable than plants without awards, and the award designation helps
the public select better plants, and helps the breeder select better
crosses. Probably most importantly, although it shouldn't be, it is a
system for financially rewarding the grower of the awarded plant.

What does all that mean? It means as a breeder and plantsman, I
know that Paph. Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable' FCC/RHS is a damn fine
specimen of paphly beauty. I don't even need to see the picture, and
pictures lie anyway. I can purchase this plant and be assured that it
is of high quality. I can breed with this plant and presume that the
progeny will have a higher probability of being 'successful' than if I
use the Winston Churchill "Joe Schmoe" clone that I picked up off the
raffle table (although "Indomitable" is a more successful parent, if I
recall correctly). Does it supercede my own aesthetic reasoning? It
shouldn't. If my "Joe Schmoe" clone is nicer in some respect (color,
shape, etc) than some FCC or AM plant, then it is my choice to use it, I
just can't be assured that the plant buying public will be as apt to
purchase my cross. Their loss, and mine, if I'm a commercial grower.

Anyway, an FCC/RHS or an FCC/AOS is pretty much the same in my
book. The plants would be equally valuable. I don't see much point in
giving an AOS award to an RHS awarded plant. It just makes the
exhibitor pay another 35 dollars. It is quite another thing to promote
an AM/RHS to an FCC/AOS (or vice versa, I suppose). That is a higher
ranked award, and makes the plant correspondingly more valuable. I am
in favor of promoting awards when that is merited. We just did that on
a Phrag a few weeks ago (78pt HCC/AOS promoted to something well over 80
points AM).

Random ramblings on my last day of work...

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

danny wrote:

Why wouldn't you want to give the same level AOS award to the plant? That
would put the plant in the AOS judging system, so that it could be used for
future comparison when considering other awards for the species/grex. Are
the RHS awards looked at by AOS judges when they are scoring a plant? I
didn't think that was the case. If someone didn't put XX/RHS on the tag,
would you even know it was an RHS awarded plant when you were looking at it
on the judging table?



That is an excellent point, and well taken. And no, we don't look
at the RHS awards (we should, and I was just thinking about writing a
paper on that topic). However, I don't really believe in putting
something into the AOS judging system just to put it on record. I know
that many people do, there is an honest difference of opinion there. If
somebody didn't put the RHS award on the tag, then it is likely to get
an AOS award if it is sufficiently new. Older plants get judged by the
current standards, it would be hard to give some of the old FCCs an HCC
today. But even if the RHS award is on the tag, it can still get an AOS
award, there is no rule against it.

All that said, if somebody knows enough about the plant to put the
RHS award on the tag, then they know that the plant is valuable. I
don't know why an exhibitor would want to add an AOS award to the list.
You wouldn't get any more money for selling it or its progeny, at least
to the kind of people who would pay extra for that kind of thing. The
awards are equally good. That is my opinion, of course, and others feel
differently.

And as a final point, I definitely think that the AOS should
consider looking at RHS awards in the research phase of judging. The
systems are similar enough that they can be rationally compared, and the
more information the better, in my opinion. I base my score on a
representation of the 'ideal flower' for a given type of breeding. Sure
would be nice to know what is possible on the other side of the pond,
for developing my image of what is possible.

If someone brings a plant to a monthly judging session, then your "It would
cost them another $35 dollars" argument wouldn't apply at all. If an
exhibitor in a show doesn't want to pay $35, they can simply mark their
plant "Not for AOS Judging". I know many judges are reluctant to do
something like upgrading an 80 point AM/AOS to an 85 point AM/AOS because
they don't think there's any point, and I kinda agree with them there.
Witholding an award from a plant because it has an award from a judging
organization in another country doesn't make any sense at all.


I debated mentioning that in the last post... Yes, if a plant is
brought specifically for AOS judging, then obviously the owner would
like to pay for an award. We see about half our award plants at shows,
and you would be surprised at how many people don't put "Not for AOS
judging" on their tags.

As for withholding an award, I don't think I said we would do
that... A plant will be judged on its merits. If a plant has a
previous AOS award to the same clone, we know what to compare it to. Is
it better than the previous award? How does this improvement compare to
the current state of the art? If a plant has an RHS award, we lack the
literature to see what it looked like at the time it was awarded. That
doesn't prevent us from comparing it to what we think is current.
Nothing on the tag precludes a plant from an AOS quality award.

Would I pull an awarded plant for judging out of an exhibit at a
show? Probably not, unless I know that the bloom is superior to its
previous award. It just isn't time efficient (or customary, for that
matter) to pull every awarded plant and reevaluate it to see if it is
better than the previous award. Nobody has time for that. But if a
person brings it to AOS judging, we will look at it. In our region we
look at everything that comes to the judging center, rather than
nominating plants from the floor.

It is certainly complicated...

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

"danny" wrote in message
...
Why wouldn't you want to give the same level AOS award to the plant? That
would put the plant in the AOS judging system, so that it could be used
for
future comparison when considering other awards for the species/grex.


For what its worth, danny, I agree with you.


Are the RHS awards looked at by AOS judges when they are scoring a plant?


No they are not because they are not AOS awards. Nor are HOS or CSA awards
taken into account.



I didn't think that was the case. If someone didn't put XX/RHS on the
tag,
would you even know it was an RHS awarded plant when you were looking at
it on the judging table?


No you would not know it was an RHS awarded plant if you saw it on the
judging table. Because the RHS award aren't taken into account.



If someone brings a plant to a monthly judging session, then your "It
would
cost them another $35 dollars" argument wouldn't apply at all. If an
exhibitor in a show doesn't want to pay $35, they can simply mark their
plant "Not for AOS Judging". I know many judges are reluctant to do
something like upgrading an 80 point AM/AOS to an 85 point AM/AOS because
they don't think there's any point, and I kinda agree with them there.
Witholding an award from a plant because it has an award from a judging
organization in another country doesn't make any sense at all.


Again, for what its worth, I agree too. But I do see the value in awarding
a higher AM. Again it gets the flower's quality into the system.

K Barrett


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Gene Schurg wrote:

My point of this thread is that I would expect that a plant awarded an
FCC
from the RHS (or other group) should also score very high by other
organizations. At least that is what I thought until this discussion.
I
find it interesting that a search of your files only yielded a short
list
of
plants with FCCs from both organizations.

It appears that a plant with an FCC from AOS may not get equal
consideration
by the RHS and vice versa.


Hmmm. Ok, I'll give my personal opinion as a probationary AOS judge
here. They can kick me out if I'm wrong... *grin* In my opinion, it is
not worthwhile to give a plant the same quality award from the AOS and
the RHS simultaneously. The purpose of the award system is to
acknowledge superior plants for purposes of advancing the horticultural
desirability of orchids. In other words, plants with awards are more
desirable than plants without awards, and the award designation helps
the public select better plants, and helps the breeder select better
crosses. Probably most importantly, although it shouldn't be, it is a
system for financially rewarding the grower of the awarded plant.

What does all that mean? It means as a breeder and plantsman, I
know that Paph. Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable' FCC/RHS is a damn fine
specimen of paphly beauty. I don't even need to see the picture, and
pictures lie anyway. I can purchase this plant and be assured that it
is of high quality. I can breed with this plant and presume that the
progeny will have a higher probability of being 'successful' than if I
use the Winston Churchill "Joe Schmoe" clone that I picked up off the
raffle table (although "Indomitable" is a more successful parent, if I
recall correctly). Does it supercede my own aesthetic reasoning? It
shouldn't. If my "Joe Schmoe" clone is nicer in some respect (color,
shape, etc) than some FCC or AM plant, then it is my choice to use it, I
just can't be assured that the plant buying public will be as apt to
purchase my cross. Their loss, and mine, if I'm a commercial grower.

Anyway, an FCC/RHS or an FCC/AOS is pretty much the same in my
book. The plants would be equally valuable. I don't see much point in
giving an AOS award to an RHS awarded plant. It just makes the
exhibitor pay another 35 dollars. It is quite another thing to promote
an AM/RHS to an FCC/AOS (or vice versa, I suppose). That is a higher
ranked award, and makes the plant correspondingly more valuable. I am
in favor of promoting awards when that is merited. We just did that on
a Phrag a few weeks ago (78pt HCC/AOS promoted to something well over 80
points AM).

Random ramblings on my last day of work...

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )