open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
Hi Len,
That's a very intense and angry (and not completely clear) post there, but it certainly brought people out, glad to know i'm not the only lurker :o) Permaculture is a great thing, and sadly there is always an element of human nature that likes to cash in on great things, tho I don't think it's the only solution, it's a good one. Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie: there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word out there? Hope all is well and you're getting some healthy offers on your place, Yours Andrea PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one, ta :o) "len gardener" wrote in message ... hey permie friends world wide? lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey? what do we really want hey? permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we are ever gong to have to call home ok? SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY????????? lets get back to grass roots hey? lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey. we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to pee get the message? OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a seppo)[sorry just how i see it] ok getting the message hey? cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet we are likely to have to live on. so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates. i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK. so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and forget the bloody money ok! let that come later. you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off. and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't understand. so lets SUCK it and SEE hey. to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time coming for the chardeney set ok. len proudly trying to tip the balance. -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
thanks andrea,
i was a bit emotional on the day i guess, but yes it was bought on by the fact that others keep saying there is no just simply promotion of pc and the ideals, and this is borne out if one does a search. and then those that wish to bleed it to death never seem to want to offer much help free. and lurking is what seems to go on an awful lot in pc forums/groups whatever, one forum has over 300 members and generates app' i post every 2 days, some posts have had over 400 visits and only 8 or so responses, to me sort of sounds like hey why? even here alt.pc up to a couple of years agao and for the 3 or so years before that after i joined (is the only period i can talk about) there was lots of banta going on new people coming in and the word was being spread but now to all appearance sakes it is fairly much null and void (refraining from using dead as may upset the few good people still here). i don't profess to know anything about anything let alone everything i just go along and give it my best shot and if something works then hope to share that with others in their efforts. we had hoped to simply be able to show people how without much more than perusing a book that realy pc is from the heart, and so very simple and the results although not as visibly obvious are there to be seen. i'll try and get some inspiration going on the suggestion for my web page, just it's a bit hard to portray even in pics what processes are going on and how they are working or that they are working at all. we did have plans of some eco' tourism and then use that as the foot inthe door to explain what we are doing. but in life things never quiet go the way we'd like so now must look to other plans. len On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:47:31 GMT, "Pinky" wrote: Hi Len, That's a very intense and angry (and not completely clear) post there, but it certainly brought people out, glad to know i'm not the only lurker :o) Permaculture is a great thing, and sadly there is always an element of human nature that likes to cash in on great things, tho I don't think it's the only solution, it's a good one. Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie: there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word out there? Hope all is well and you're getting some healthy offers on your place, Yours Andrea PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one, ta :o) "len gardener" wrote in message .. . hey permie friends world wide? lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey? what do we really want hey? permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we are ever gong to have to call home ok? SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY????????? lets get back to grass roots hey? lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey. we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to pee get the message? OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a seppo)[sorry just how i see it] ok getting the message hey? cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet we are likely to have to live on. so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates. i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK. so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and forget the bloody money ok! let that come later. you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off. and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't understand. so lets SUCK it and SEE hey. to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time coming for the chardeney set ok. len proudly trying to tip the balance. -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Pinky" wrote in message
... Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie: there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word out there? Thats a good way to look at it, if we think about it, those of us who are using pc techniques daily dont think to take pics and notes to pass on ..we just get on with it. I personally think there is room for the teachers and if there's a market for a weekend crash course into pc then why wouldnt people who are able to teach it offer that service ? I understand what Len meant though, it could be very daunting for newcommers if they think that to be able to use permaculture means you have to be taught by someone who has a diploma in pc design, and if you search for pc on the net thats what comes across. We (this newsgroup) should be here as a resource for people who want simple and down to earth banter/advice/brain storming/idea echange about pc without it costing them anything, if they want to pursue a course then fine ... if not then fine.... but its important to get the message across I think Len was trying to make ... that you don't need to pay someone to teach you permaculture techniques anymore than you need to pay someone to teach you how to plant cabbages. Of course there was "fluff" on this NG .... it was a community and thats what made it so ....IMO thats why new folks jumped in and started posting cos it felt like a community not just an information exchange. PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one, ta :o) tim-tam for you .....and seeing as the female/male ratio looks pretty good from where I'm sitting .......I also think a group hug would be nice. :-) Just keep Len away from the red cordial |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
exactly pete,
i too did a 2 day intro course which is more than enough to start people into working towards pc ideals. but with the other side that chagrges huge bucks everyone who goes that way thinks there is a magic bottomless cash cow pit that they too have the right to tap into, just isn't so. yes this group was a live online community, i rmemeber when i first came wet behind the ears it had the feeling of belonging about it, and we ahd some good banta we don't always all agree but hey we are individuals but we don't carry it to the point of the detriment of the group. and yes back then new folks could jump in and where made so welcome but now nothing well almost. in the early days i used to think how great could it be if we could all amass together just to meet each other and break down the unknown barriers, i have been fortunate to meet a number of pc'ers face to face it just puts a whole new concept to the name you chat with online. we met ted and sheena this way and no we don't agree on everything but we are good friends and although they live app' 1 hour away we help each other, i get to grow all the garlic while ted gets on top of his slight salt problems and gets his system working and every season the changes can be seen. now back to that red ah-um cordial of course. tim tams put too mauch weight on hey pete?? enjoy take care len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"len gardener" wrote in message
but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do (snip) and for discenteres just do a search under pc and see what you get lots and lots of certificates and diplomas, none of here is how simple pc can be so get started today. pc is a mind set not a design course. Well that is true to some extent, but if you think about it for a moment, just how many home veggie gardening pages do you find when you do a google search? If I just do a hunt using the word "vegetables" I'm going to get up every page with veggies on it whether I want it or not AND most of those pages will be about commercial ventures:- vegetable wholesalers, vegetarian restaurants, health practitioners extolling the value of their diet services that use vegetables, etc, etc etc. People like you, who put up a homepage that includes veggies growing, won't necessarily know how to put in the info needed for search engines to pick up the site. Also, since you also probably have to pay for your home page you are less likely to put in much info that the rest of us would like to see. The commercial world will always be to the forefront in putting the info out there because they will pay for professionals to make their page and they will pay to do it well and for it to come up in each and every search that uses the keyword of "permaculture". You may object to the making money approach and think that all pc practisioners should all do it for free and gratis but it has never been that way from what I can tell. Friends of mine ran a pc course way, way back in the very early days. They had met Mollison or knew him somehow and asked him to come and run a session. He agreed if he was put up for the time he was there. To get interested people they advertised it locally (at their own cost) and didn't ask a penny from anyone. In their course information they told people that they should bring basic camping stuff and the course attendees could have free use of camping space and showers. Many free loaders arrived who were either broke or disorganised without event he basics that my friends ended up providing meals and all sorts of other things to the participants. By the end of the long weekend course they were so appalled at the participants that they have stayed clear of pcers ever since. Mollison did give them some sort of Permaculture Award for their efforts before and during the course. I've seen it but I don't remember what it is actually called. Anyway, my friends are unbelievably generous people and the situation must have been appalling for them to have got the hump. I do know that there was one PC person who went to their workshop and who now "instructs" and advertises widely. He sounds like a right nut case and a very nasty piece of work into the bargain - he's violent. He can't control his temper and then turns violent - he should be locked away as should anyone who does that. Anyway I suspect that the grassroots bodies who are doing pc are probably all busily out there doing it and not spending as much time on the computer. Just ignore the pc yuppies. You don't have to buy their way of doing it and as I said earlier I don't ever recall anyone who posted here regularly ever having had a cert or an interest in making money out of pc. Better to stick around here than those other forums. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Pete" wrote in message
... The whale would have to be pretty big these days cos the good life is erm catchin up with me ...if ya know what I mean... Now that sounds like one very contented fisher person who wouldn't be dead for quids. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"len gardener" wrote in message
we had hoped to simply be able to show people how without much more than perusing a book that realy pc is from the heart, and so very simple and the results although not as visibly obvious are there to be seen. It is sometims a bit hard to explain to people who aren't in the know about the simple joys of being outside rooting around in the dirt. Years ago before we moved out here from the village, I was helping a woman friend of mine unload a trailer load of compost she'd brought to her home from 50 kms away. She got the compost at her mother's place because her mother was going into an old folks home and my friend wasn't going to leave this lovely stuff for the tenants. As we were unloading this rich friable yummy chocolate brown stuff into her cement clay like courtyard we often came across worms which we'd gently pick up and put aside into a bucket which we'd filled with some compost which we'd set aside for just this purpose - didn't want to harm any of the worms did we? Anyway at some stage she got the giggles as I yelled at her yet again to stop shovelling 'cos I needed to rescue another worm. When I asked her what the matter was she replied: "No-one where we work would EVER understand 2 highly paid women looking like a couple of derros shovelling dirt and rescuing worms". She was right of course. I'll remember her comment till I eventually get Alzheimers. It's all about what one values and some people will spend more on hiring videos in a week that they would on buying fresh fruit. Me, I like worms and animal poo and my chooks and my poor dry garden. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Pete" wrote in message
We (this newsgroup) should be here as a resource for people who want simple and down to earth banter/advice/brain storming/idea echange about pc without it costing them anything, if they want to pursue a course then fine ... if not then fine.... but its important to get the message across I think Len was trying to make ... that you don't need to pay someone to teach you permaculture techniques anymore than you need to pay someone to teach you how to plant cabbages. That sounds like a good idea, but where do we get the fresh meat from? You, me, Len, Tara, Andrea and Janet are all quite old meat and we've allc hewed this fat before. :-)) Of course there was "fluff" on this NG .... it was a community and thats what made it so ....IMO thats why new folks jumped in and started posting cos it felt like a community not just an information exchange. You mean just like we are doing now? :-P tim-tam for you .....and seeing as the female/male ratio looks pretty good from where I'm sitting .......I also think a group hug would be nice. :-) Pete you really do need to play harder to get! Just keep Len away from the red cordial LOL |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
g'day fran,
there was a post or 2 here quiet some time ago if i recal i then raised the issue of pc 4 sale only to those who can afford it. i am currently in or lurking if you wish in 5 pc forums this one and 4 other forums. this one was by far the best some time back but has all but faded away but for a few cross posts and smutt material. i am also inviolved in quiet a number of gardening and related news groups and forums even exclusively aussie forums, the difference between the 2 that is pc and the others is that on all the others there are gardeners and related chatting about what they are doing, asking about help for porblems and otehrs providing help or assistance where possible, people are not only excahnging ideas and pics online but they are exchanging seeds and plant material where they can. i myself have recieved all sorts of material from others and from you as well and to all i am very grateful, i have been able to reciprocagte buy sending stuff to others so the circle goes around, but those gardening forums are vibrant and alive with chat, and they are all at grass roots level no one is flogging lessons in growing things or how to organic garden or even how to fix a mower it all comes gratis to all and sundry. i can emphasize with your pc friends and feel for their honest efforts but unfortunately the world is full of those that would take advantage, it's like some who take advantage of whooffers they think these people travelling around are little more than slaves. back to the serf's and lord's days. in all those other forums there are dozens upon dozens probably hundreds of posts daily, but perma-c would be lucky to generate up to 4 a day on any given day this topic excluded. and for the maion the most topiced product in those permy posts is you guessed it yet another fresh from someone's institute certified with diploma who now wants the right to earn their money back. i have tried to have chat on those forums about all sorts of things but usually if just fades away. anyhow fran it is not a personal attack on you or any of the handful of regulars still er um lurking. yes i can ingnore the yuppies but those out there that we want to come onto pc aren't and they aren't coming into pc, we realy need to get it promoted very strongly at grass roots level, or i for one can't see it going far. the reason i frequent those other forums is that i am looking for chat, knowledge and the sharing of it not knowledge from a carriculum but knowledge from applying it and succeeding. i can only invite people to come to pc i ca't make them come. take care len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
hey pete,
at least it's only catching up with you i'm so slow nowadays it's gone right by me lol len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
a couple of deros' and loving it hey fran?
way to go would love to ahve bee there getting me hand dirty with you. len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
that's the sad point fran,
pc is losing relevence and from all the feed back i get from others they see it as something expensive before they can even think about what it is all about. we need that new um "meat" all avenues of common interest needs it all otehr gardening related forums i am involved in have new converts almost daily, things have gone terribly wrong and it can't farely be blamed on this forum, the results of search engines is a good point to start with. forget which post you mentioned in about web pages and their costs and how they are set up. but my homepage (as distinct from a web page there seems to be a difference or perception that there is) doesn't cost money but i am only allocagted so much space in this caes 5 meg by my isp, also homepages like mine lose lots of contacts when we change isp's for one reason or another, so literally we have to start all over again when we make those changes. us simple folk can't afford domain name nor can we afford web masters to set our pages up and make sure we get all the top search positions but the money chasers can it si after all a legitimate tax deduction for them, and they flood the market so to speak. when people do searches they rarely peruse past the first 20 hits (there could be over a hundred hits to select from)so if those positions are flooded then us little people don't even get noticed. before i left brissy i was contacted by a lady seeking help with pc she ahd consulted with a certified pc designer, who spoke way over this ladies head and after collecting her fee the convert had little or nothing to go on, she found me somehow and for free i went to her place abotu a 2 hour round trip and discussed things as i saw it (she ahd seen my layout) then i took her to her local demolition yard to show her different material she could use for garden edges, she's still pc gardening. and i think that near most of us here would do the same thing. if she hadn't stumbled across me then would she still be interested in pc today? i dunno my crystal ball is broken. i think that 1 of the glasses of red cordail may have been bad the other day mmm wot u reckon? enjoy & take care len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
Howdy again, I'm chiming in all over the place *sigh*
"Fran" wrote in message ... "len gardener" wrote in message but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do (snip) and for discenteres just do a search under pc and see what you get lots and lots of certificates and diplomas, none of here is how simple pc can be so get started today. pc is a mind set not a design course. Well that is true to some extent, but if you think about it for a moment, just how many home veggie gardening pages do you find when you do a google search? If I just do a hunt using the word "vegetables" I'm going to get up every page with veggies on it whether I want it or not AND most of those pages will be about commercial ventures:- vegetable wholesalers, vegetarian restaurants, health practitioners extolling the value of their diet services that use vegetables, etc, etc etc. People like you, who put up a homepage that includes veggies growing, won't necessarily know how to put in the info needed for search engines to pick up the site. Also, since you also probably have to pay for your home page you are less likely to put in much info that the rest of us would like to see. The commercial world will always be to the forefront in putting the info out there because they will pay for professionals to make their page and they will pay to do it well and for it to come up in each and every search that uses the keyword of "permaculture". Too true, web advertising is budgeted for in businesses now days, it's hard to compete with that if you're an 'owner/builder' web page, but keep plugging away there (lol, i also think if you put 'vegetables' into a search engine you'd probably get a load of strange and probably unhygenic sounding porn judging by the crap that's been flooding this group lately :op) You may object to the making money approach and think that all pc practisioners should all do it for free and gratis but it has never been that way from what I can tell. Friends of mine ran a pc course way, way back in the very early days. They had met Mollison or knew him somehow and asked him to come and run a session. He agreed if he was put up for the time he was there. snip, but that must have been incredibly disheartening Mollison hasn't done too badly off permaculture either, which is reasonable since he & David Holmgren coined the phrase, then, iirc, copyrighted it, so making a bob off the idea has always been there, but it is a bit of a pain in the butt if you're given the impression that the only way to get into it is to shell out a large amount of dosh to 'learn' it... I'm with you there Len Anyway I suspect that the grassroots bodies who are doing pc are probably all busily out there doing it and not spending as much time on the computer. Just ignore the pc yuppies. You don't have to buy their way of doing it and as I said earlier I don't ever recall anyone who posted here regularly ever having had a cert or an interest in making money out of pc. Better to stick around here than those other forums. Excellent advice Fran :oD And everyone who used to post here was busily doing their own thing and learning as we went and sharing their experiences, it'd be great to get that back, but i suppose monitoring the group, responding to q's etc (which I know you guys do) and being welcoming to any new people is probably the best way to get the ng back from the spammers and breathe some life back into it... just to save replying further down: I loved your story about the compost and the worms, Fran - only people with gardeners hearts (and maybe fisherperson hearts) would think to save the worms, it did make me laugh, I'd be doing the same thing I think, and as to being 'old meat', I resemble... er... resent that remark, lmao Have a good weekend all, Andrea |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Fran" wrote in message ... Now that sounds like one very contented fisher person who wouldn't be dead for quids. Contented yessss very .... and fat I now know why I got married .............. its the food preparation |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Fran" wrote in message ... That sounds like a good idea, but where do we get the fresh meat from? You, me, Len, Tara, Andrea and Janet are all quite old meat and we've allc hewed this fat before. :-)) Mmmm meat .... mmmm fat..... oops Problem iniit ? Mark used to say it best when he said "we can't JUST talk about pc continually without the fluff" or something similar ... because unless new folks are coming into the group we would just grind to a halt saying the same things to each other over and over. Pete you really do need to play harder to get! Ok .... only female permaculturists can hug me ........is that better ? |
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