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open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
hey permie friends world wide?
lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey? what do we really want hey? permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we are ever gong to have to call home ok? SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY????????? lets get back to grass roots hey? lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey. we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to pee get the message? OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a seppo)[sorry just how i see it] ok getting the message hey? cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet we are likely to have to live on. so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates. i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK. so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and forget the bloody money ok! let that come later. you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off. and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't understand. so lets SUCK it and SEE hey. to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time coming for the chardeney set ok. len proudly trying to tip the balance. -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
The message
from len gardener contains these words: ok getting the message hey? No, I have absolutely no idea what you're going on about. you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off. Speak for yourself. I haven't seen anything to complain about, or anybody else complaining. You certainly don't represent me. Altpc doesn't need another Lawrence laying down crazed foul-mouthed smutty edicts about who can post here. Janet |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
i'm not laying anything down janet and i'm no whomever, and this
response is about your standard. and the only thing i am addicted to is passing on this planet to the next generations in as good a condition as it can be. get eyes wide open all this selling pc and making money from it is killing the goose so to say. sometimes we need to get outside the square. this forum is a good example of the demise. len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
The message
from len gardener contains these words: i'm not laying anything down janet Telling people who post here to **** off and **** off isn't "laying it down"? and i'm no whomever, and this response is about your standard. What does that mean? get eyes wide open all this selling pc and making money from it is killing the goose so to say. Aren't you also trying to make money by selling something on this group? this forum is a good example of the demise. Rubbish. The demise of this forum had nothing whatever to do with the commercial side of permaculture. It happened because one idiot attempted to dictate the agenda of a newsgroup and drive out anyone who had different views from his; just as you're doing now. Janet |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"len gardener" wrote in message
get eyes wide open all this selling pc and making money from it is killing the goose so to say. Len I'd have to say that your post came like a bolt from the blue. I can understand why you object to the "get certified, make money from pc" approach but then I have seen nothing like that here for ages. In fact all I have seen here for ages is smut from slimy porn posters - absolutely nothing to do with pc at at all. And as far as pc stuff goes here well it is more a matter of keeping things hanging there so that they can survive this bloody drought. I'm sick to death of hauling our shoer water to keep my plants alive. this forum is a good example of the demise. Well in tha case you might like to help by suggesting a few drought strategies and see if we can get this ng back from the smutters and pornsters.........hmmmmm? |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
g'day fran,
i didn't post this as a personal thing, i am involved in a few permy forums etc.,. and this news group up to a couple or so years ago was a vibrant forum of people sharing ideas and discussing what they were doing and how. that all stopped and in my opinion which i am voicing ok sorry it came out a bit strong, but there is an undercurrent of these diploma yuppies out there and all they see pc as is a way to a healthy bank account or some sort of notoriety. this group which was attracting new players which is needed to keep the flow going has slowly but surely ground to a halt, and the way i see largely due to this premise that unless you have a diploma and set up and institute you just aren't doing permaculture (this was not necessarily caused by posters in this group but surely it has been by other forums). yes i know that some sort of bad politics played it's part here as well and from where i see it not all that can be pointed one way there was lots of bad karma going on between what appeared to be factions. permaculture is people interested in the betterment of the planet, what their personal perferences or biases are do not count. now for those who do not believe in freedom of speech i stick to my opinion, so if the shoe fits you wear it, i'm afraid to me it looks like there are those that cannot handle the resposibilty that comes with the anonimity that the 'net guarantees. i have never been this vocal before but i hold the right to say it as i see it as everyone has that right. i feel for all our friends and otehrs who are sharing this drought, yes we ahve been lucky this last summer and gotten some good falls and some good falls alst year as well, and a lot of the practises we have incorporated here have maximised those falls of rain. we bought and lost lots of trees in the early stages there was just no way know we coyuld keep the water up to them, that has now truned around, but it was very distressing especially when not only water was short but so was money, not counting the tiem & effort involved. we too keep our plants going with our grey water and our night water, our main supply is tanks one is already shut down so we are on the last 2, we are hoping and praying for rain for one and all in the coming summer. the otehr down side that is disheartening is ok (no accolades sort) but in the time we have planted 500 trees just around us our estimate is that anywhere up to or mere than 1000+ trees have been pushed over or felled for the mill or the chippers, so when our mr jack thompson illustrious actor and tree ambassador says we are a bit behind the 8 ball boy have i got a message for, he mentions 8 million trees planted but no mention that maybe there is around 10 times that amount destroyed in the same period of time. if we don't start getting some common sense land management going in this country alone and pc was maybe still is if we can get it back to grass roots, the best way to instil that need in people, for if we don't in simple terms i can't see our rain situation returning to normal. take care len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
that's our janet,
tucked inside your comfort zone, not daring to come outside the square and taking cheep shots from behind the protective anonimity curtain that the 'net provides all of us. i don't recall using yours or anyones name in my post or should i say open letter, but you seem to revel in turning things into a personal afront. i will say 'if the shoe fits then you wear it'. len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
Anyone wanna biscuit ?
Ya can have a coffee too ...everyone except Len ... I'm putting you on a caffeine free diet mate :-) "len gardener" wrote in message ... hey permie friends world wide? lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey? what do we really want hey? permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we are ever gong to have to call home ok? SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY????????? lets get back to grass roots hey? lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey. we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to pee get the message? OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a seppo)[sorry just how i see it] ok getting the message hey? cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet we are likely to have to live on. so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates. i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK. so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and forget the bloody money ok! let that come later. you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off. and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't understand. so lets SUCK it and SEE hey. to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time coming for the chardeney set ok. len proudly trying to tip the balance. -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
thanks pete,
yeh maybe i am drinking a little too much of it nowadays caffeine that is. len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
The message
from len gardener contains these words: now for those who do not believe in freedom of speech i stick to my opinion, Straw man. so if the shoe fits you wear it, i'm afraid to me it looks like there are those that cannot handle the resposibilty that comes with the anonimity that the 'net guarantees. i have never been this vocal before but i hold the right to say it as i see it as everyone has that right. Really? Don't forget that "everyone" includes me, those you disrespect in your post, and people who value permaculture courses, diplomas, and earning a living from teaching. Telling them to **** off and shut up, shows you're a blinkered hypocrite who doesn't give a damn about other peoples' freedom to express their opinion. Your appalling lie that I post anonymously to avoid responsibility for what I say, is just pitiful. A year back you emailed me to arrange for your friend's wife to visit me on her trip to Scotland; and you have spoken to her since she did. You know perfectly well that this my real name, and exactly where I live. Janet |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
The message
from len gardener contains these words: that's our janet, tucked inside your comfort zone, not daring to come outside the square and taking cheep shots from behind the protective anonimity curtain that the 'net provides all of us. Liar. There's nothing anonymous or behind the curtain about my posts and never has been. You're the one sounding off behind the protective curtain of altpc, aiming your bile at OTHER FORUMS safe in the knowledge that they won't see it here. i don't recall using yours or anyones name in my post or should i say open letter, but you seem to revel in turning things into a personal afront. When you said " **** OFF ...(..)you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off", you intended the targets of your views to believe that other users of this group share that opinion. Other users of altpc includes me. For you to behave like that while pretending to represent other people, is dishonest, and an affront to all of us. Freedom of speech applies equally to all, Len. That includes me and anyone else who disagrees with you, and people who want to discuss aspects of permaculture that don't appeal to you. Freedom of speech does not mean a license to abuse people and it does not mean that you can dictate who posts in this group. Janet. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Pete" wrote in message
Now that couldn't be Wibbers the fisher person could it? If it is, then the rumours that you were swallowed by a whale must have been exaggerated. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"len gardener" wrote in message
g'day fran, i didn't post this as a personal thing, i am involved in a few permy forums etc.,. and this news group up to a couple or so years ago was a vibrant forum of people sharing ideas and discussing what they were doing and how. Yes it was that all stopped and in my opinion which i am voicing ok sorry it came out a bit strong, but there is an undercurrent of these diploma yuppies out there and all they see pc as is a way to a healthy bank account or some sort of notoriety. this group which was attracting new players which is needed to keep the flow going has slowly but surely ground to a halt, and the way i see largely due to this premise that unless you have a diploma and set up and institute you just aren't doing permaculture (this was not necessarily caused by posters in this group but surely it has been by other forums). Len, the group here has ground to a halt BUT none of the regular posters here ever had a permie cert, or ever (from what I remember) sought to make money from pc. I don't know what is going on in other forums and what is happening there may be the reason why you are cross now and posted such a heavy comment. There has been no pc activity here in this newsgroup from the regulars for so long now that you couldn't possibly still be cross about anything that happened in the dim past. I still can't understand why we all got a blast from you in this newsgroup. Obviously there are a few of us old regulars who are still hanging around here and checking in here regularly. It would seem that Pete, Tara, Janet and myself are all lurking. Because we are all still checking this ng regularly that should tell you that we are still interested in both pc and this newsgroup. We (Janet, Pete, Tara and myself) didn't do or say anything nasty to you but suddenly you have given us a serve whether we deserved it or not. Janet got cross with you in response to your post. She hadn't posted here for so long that nothing she previously posted could have caused you to post what you did. Has something happened that upset you in another forum? Or are you just shitty with life generally? I don't think we deserved your post. We were all lurking here very very quietly. We weren't posting so how could you be cross with a bunch of lurkers? Why don't you have that cup of coffee that Pete won't give you and have a biscuit and then post and tell us all why you are really shitty. No-one here has ever claimed to be interested in money or certificates or looked down on anyone for being interested in pc. We have had a go at people who have lied but then I don't recall ever thinking that you had ever lied. yes i know that some sort of bad politics played it's part here as well and from where i see it not all that can be pointed one way there was lots of bad karma going on between what appeared to be factions. Yes Len but that is ancient history. What is up now? if we don't start getting some common sense land management going in this country alone and pc was maybe still is if we can get it back to grass roots, the best way to instil that need in people, for if we don't in simple terms i can't see our rain situation returning to normal. Now ain't that the truth! |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
g'day fran,
it wasn't directed an any particular person in the group, there are so few of us who lurk here now anyway. but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do to some degree you along with pete and others i hope we can count ourselves in as well are out there doing it and untill all that factional garbage this group was full of help and ideas going back and forth but now that the only thrust is from those chardinay yuppies looking for an easy buck. but please fran i think you and pete and others would know that i did not aim this personaly, just as others have said and what the feed back i get from the common man pc is rapidly turning into a here today gone tomorrrow yuppie fad. i love sharing ideas and experiences and as you would know am not known for getting into personal afronts like some others live for. i'm with fukuoka he says plant the trees/plants and the rain will come, i believe that is our only hope to reversing what is occuring trouble is it won't happen over night it took us 200 hundred years to get to this stage so guess it is going to take us some of that time to get some of the way back. so if this form of pc that is gets out of the reach of the common man the grass roots people then it will lose it's relevence and change will never come or when people realise that they can't afford to buy food then it will be too late. like i said we alone have planted 500 trees in this area on our block but it is a mere spit in the bucket to what is ripped out of the place. people are of the opinion if they own it then they can do what they like with it. i think if we don't get more responsible and say ok we are the custodians of these resources then the situation cannot change. so if we get a benefit from selling and our land is more attractive due to pc principlas well so be it that to us shows others that pc is tangible and beneficial, just imagine if everyone who bought land like tis could see those benefits and turn them into a benefit for them thibngs would start to change, but that is not about to happen anytime soon. and for discenteres just do a search under pc and see what you get lots and lots of certificates and diplomas, none of here is how simple pc can be so get started today. pc is a mind set not a design course. take care len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Fran" wrote in message
... "Pete" wrote in message Now that couldn't be Wibbers the fisher person could it? I think it's me .... Yes it is I just checked wiv the wife If it is, then the rumours that you were swallowed by a whale must have been exaggerated. The whale would have to be pretty big these days cos the good life is erm catchin up with me ...if ya know what I mean... |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
Hi Len,
That's a very intense and angry (and not completely clear) post there, but it certainly brought people out, glad to know i'm not the only lurker :o) Permaculture is a great thing, and sadly there is always an element of human nature that likes to cash in on great things, tho I don't think it's the only solution, it's a good one. Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie: there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word out there? Hope all is well and you're getting some healthy offers on your place, Yours Andrea PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one, ta :o) "len gardener" wrote in message ... hey permie friends world wide? lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey? what do we really want hey? permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we are ever gong to have to call home ok? SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY????????? lets get back to grass roots hey? lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey. we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to pee get the message? OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a seppo)[sorry just how i see it] ok getting the message hey? cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet we are likely to have to live on. so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates. i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK. so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and forget the bloody money ok! let that come later. you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off. and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't understand. so lets SUCK it and SEE hey. to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time coming for the chardeney set ok. len proudly trying to tip the balance. -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
thanks andrea,
i was a bit emotional on the day i guess, but yes it was bought on by the fact that others keep saying there is no just simply promotion of pc and the ideals, and this is borne out if one does a search. and then those that wish to bleed it to death never seem to want to offer much help free. and lurking is what seems to go on an awful lot in pc forums/groups whatever, one forum has over 300 members and generates app' i post every 2 days, some posts have had over 400 visits and only 8 or so responses, to me sort of sounds like hey why? even here alt.pc up to a couple of years agao and for the 3 or so years before that after i joined (is the only period i can talk about) there was lots of banta going on new people coming in and the word was being spread but now to all appearance sakes it is fairly much null and void (refraining from using dead as may upset the few good people still here). i don't profess to know anything about anything let alone everything i just go along and give it my best shot and if something works then hope to share that with others in their efforts. we had hoped to simply be able to show people how without much more than perusing a book that realy pc is from the heart, and so very simple and the results although not as visibly obvious are there to be seen. i'll try and get some inspiration going on the suggestion for my web page, just it's a bit hard to portray even in pics what processes are going on and how they are working or that they are working at all. we did have plans of some eco' tourism and then use that as the foot inthe door to explain what we are doing. but in life things never quiet go the way we'd like so now must look to other plans. len On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:47:31 GMT, "Pinky" wrote: Hi Len, That's a very intense and angry (and not completely clear) post there, but it certainly brought people out, glad to know i'm not the only lurker :o) Permaculture is a great thing, and sadly there is always an element of human nature that likes to cash in on great things, tho I don't think it's the only solution, it's a good one. Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie: there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word out there? Hope all is well and you're getting some healthy offers on your place, Yours Andrea PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one, ta :o) "len gardener" wrote in message .. . hey permie friends world wide? lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey? what do we really want hey? permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we are ever gong to have to call home ok? SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY????????? lets get back to grass roots hey? lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey. we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to pee get the message? OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a seppo)[sorry just how i see it] ok getting the message hey? cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet we are likely to have to live on. so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates. i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK. so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and forget the bloody money ok! let that come later. you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off. and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't understand. so lets SUCK it and SEE hey. to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time coming for the chardeney set ok. len proudly trying to tip the balance. -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Pinky" wrote in message
... Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie: there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word out there? Thats a good way to look at it, if we think about it, those of us who are using pc techniques daily dont think to take pics and notes to pass on ..we just get on with it. I personally think there is room for the teachers and if there's a market for a weekend crash course into pc then why wouldnt people who are able to teach it offer that service ? I understand what Len meant though, it could be very daunting for newcommers if they think that to be able to use permaculture means you have to be taught by someone who has a diploma in pc design, and if you search for pc on the net thats what comes across. We (this newsgroup) should be here as a resource for people who want simple and down to earth banter/advice/brain storming/idea echange about pc without it costing them anything, if they want to pursue a course then fine ... if not then fine.... but its important to get the message across I think Len was trying to make ... that you don't need to pay someone to teach you permaculture techniques anymore than you need to pay someone to teach you how to plant cabbages. Of course there was "fluff" on this NG .... it was a community and thats what made it so ....IMO thats why new folks jumped in and started posting cos it felt like a community not just an information exchange. PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one, ta :o) tim-tam for you .....and seeing as the female/male ratio looks pretty good from where I'm sitting .......I also think a group hug would be nice. :-) Just keep Len away from the red cordial |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
exactly pete,
i too did a 2 day intro course which is more than enough to start people into working towards pc ideals. but with the other side that chagrges huge bucks everyone who goes that way thinks there is a magic bottomless cash cow pit that they too have the right to tap into, just isn't so. yes this group was a live online community, i rmemeber when i first came wet behind the ears it had the feeling of belonging about it, and we ahd some good banta we don't always all agree but hey we are individuals but we don't carry it to the point of the detriment of the group. and yes back then new folks could jump in and where made so welcome but now nothing well almost. in the early days i used to think how great could it be if we could all amass together just to meet each other and break down the unknown barriers, i have been fortunate to meet a number of pc'ers face to face it just puts a whole new concept to the name you chat with online. we met ted and sheena this way and no we don't agree on everything but we are good friends and although they live app' 1 hour away we help each other, i get to grow all the garlic while ted gets on top of his slight salt problems and gets his system working and every season the changes can be seen. now back to that red ah-um cordial of course. tim tams put too mauch weight on hey pete?? enjoy take care len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"len gardener" wrote in message
but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do (snip) and for discenteres just do a search under pc and see what you get lots and lots of certificates and diplomas, none of here is how simple pc can be so get started today. pc is a mind set not a design course. Well that is true to some extent, but if you think about it for a moment, just how many home veggie gardening pages do you find when you do a google search? If I just do a hunt using the word "vegetables" I'm going to get up every page with veggies on it whether I want it or not AND most of those pages will be about commercial ventures:- vegetable wholesalers, vegetarian restaurants, health practitioners extolling the value of their diet services that use vegetables, etc, etc etc. People like you, who put up a homepage that includes veggies growing, won't necessarily know how to put in the info needed for search engines to pick up the site. Also, since you also probably have to pay for your home page you are less likely to put in much info that the rest of us would like to see. The commercial world will always be to the forefront in putting the info out there because they will pay for professionals to make their page and they will pay to do it well and for it to come up in each and every search that uses the keyword of "permaculture". You may object to the making money approach and think that all pc practisioners should all do it for free and gratis but it has never been that way from what I can tell. Friends of mine ran a pc course way, way back in the very early days. They had met Mollison or knew him somehow and asked him to come and run a session. He agreed if he was put up for the time he was there. To get interested people they advertised it locally (at their own cost) and didn't ask a penny from anyone. In their course information they told people that they should bring basic camping stuff and the course attendees could have free use of camping space and showers. Many free loaders arrived who were either broke or disorganised without event he basics that my friends ended up providing meals and all sorts of other things to the participants. By the end of the long weekend course they were so appalled at the participants that they have stayed clear of pcers ever since. Mollison did give them some sort of Permaculture Award for their efforts before and during the course. I've seen it but I don't remember what it is actually called. Anyway, my friends are unbelievably generous people and the situation must have been appalling for them to have got the hump. I do know that there was one PC person who went to their workshop and who now "instructs" and advertises widely. He sounds like a right nut case and a very nasty piece of work into the bargain - he's violent. He can't control his temper and then turns violent - he should be locked away as should anyone who does that. Anyway I suspect that the grassroots bodies who are doing pc are probably all busily out there doing it and not spending as much time on the computer. Just ignore the pc yuppies. You don't have to buy their way of doing it and as I said earlier I don't ever recall anyone who posted here regularly ever having had a cert or an interest in making money out of pc. Better to stick around here than those other forums. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Pete" wrote in message
... The whale would have to be pretty big these days cos the good life is erm catchin up with me ...if ya know what I mean... Now that sounds like one very contented fisher person who wouldn't be dead for quids. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"len gardener" wrote in message
we had hoped to simply be able to show people how without much more than perusing a book that realy pc is from the heart, and so very simple and the results although not as visibly obvious are there to be seen. It is sometims a bit hard to explain to people who aren't in the know about the simple joys of being outside rooting around in the dirt. Years ago before we moved out here from the village, I was helping a woman friend of mine unload a trailer load of compost she'd brought to her home from 50 kms away. She got the compost at her mother's place because her mother was going into an old folks home and my friend wasn't going to leave this lovely stuff for the tenants. As we were unloading this rich friable yummy chocolate brown stuff into her cement clay like courtyard we often came across worms which we'd gently pick up and put aside into a bucket which we'd filled with some compost which we'd set aside for just this purpose - didn't want to harm any of the worms did we? Anyway at some stage she got the giggles as I yelled at her yet again to stop shovelling 'cos I needed to rescue another worm. When I asked her what the matter was she replied: "No-one where we work would EVER understand 2 highly paid women looking like a couple of derros shovelling dirt and rescuing worms". She was right of course. I'll remember her comment till I eventually get Alzheimers. It's all about what one values and some people will spend more on hiring videos in a week that they would on buying fresh fruit. Me, I like worms and animal poo and my chooks and my poor dry garden. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Pete" wrote in message
We (this newsgroup) should be here as a resource for people who want simple and down to earth banter/advice/brain storming/idea echange about pc without it costing them anything, if they want to pursue a course then fine ... if not then fine.... but its important to get the message across I think Len was trying to make ... that you don't need to pay someone to teach you permaculture techniques anymore than you need to pay someone to teach you how to plant cabbages. That sounds like a good idea, but where do we get the fresh meat from? You, me, Len, Tara, Andrea and Janet are all quite old meat and we've allc hewed this fat before. :-)) Of course there was "fluff" on this NG .... it was a community and thats what made it so ....IMO thats why new folks jumped in and started posting cos it felt like a community not just an information exchange. You mean just like we are doing now? :-P tim-tam for you .....and seeing as the female/male ratio looks pretty good from where I'm sitting .......I also think a group hug would be nice. :-) Pete you really do need to play harder to get! Just keep Len away from the red cordial LOL |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
g'day fran,
there was a post or 2 here quiet some time ago if i recal i then raised the issue of pc 4 sale only to those who can afford it. i am currently in or lurking if you wish in 5 pc forums this one and 4 other forums. this one was by far the best some time back but has all but faded away but for a few cross posts and smutt material. i am also inviolved in quiet a number of gardening and related news groups and forums even exclusively aussie forums, the difference between the 2 that is pc and the others is that on all the others there are gardeners and related chatting about what they are doing, asking about help for porblems and otehrs providing help or assistance where possible, people are not only excahnging ideas and pics online but they are exchanging seeds and plant material where they can. i myself have recieved all sorts of material from others and from you as well and to all i am very grateful, i have been able to reciprocagte buy sending stuff to others so the circle goes around, but those gardening forums are vibrant and alive with chat, and they are all at grass roots level no one is flogging lessons in growing things or how to organic garden or even how to fix a mower it all comes gratis to all and sundry. i can emphasize with your pc friends and feel for their honest efforts but unfortunately the world is full of those that would take advantage, it's like some who take advantage of whooffers they think these people travelling around are little more than slaves. back to the serf's and lord's days. in all those other forums there are dozens upon dozens probably hundreds of posts daily, but perma-c would be lucky to generate up to 4 a day on any given day this topic excluded. and for the maion the most topiced product in those permy posts is you guessed it yet another fresh from someone's institute certified with diploma who now wants the right to earn their money back. i have tried to have chat on those forums about all sorts of things but usually if just fades away. anyhow fran it is not a personal attack on you or any of the handful of regulars still er um lurking. yes i can ingnore the yuppies but those out there that we want to come onto pc aren't and they aren't coming into pc, we realy need to get it promoted very strongly at grass roots level, or i for one can't see it going far. the reason i frequent those other forums is that i am looking for chat, knowledge and the sharing of it not knowledge from a carriculum but knowledge from applying it and succeeding. i can only invite people to come to pc i ca't make them come. take care len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
hey pete,
at least it's only catching up with you i'm so slow nowadays it's gone right by me lol len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
a couple of deros' and loving it hey fran?
way to go would love to ahve bee there getting me hand dirty with you. len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
that's the sad point fran,
pc is losing relevence and from all the feed back i get from others they see it as something expensive before they can even think about what it is all about. we need that new um "meat" all avenues of common interest needs it all otehr gardening related forums i am involved in have new converts almost daily, things have gone terribly wrong and it can't farely be blamed on this forum, the results of search engines is a good point to start with. forget which post you mentioned in about web pages and their costs and how they are set up. but my homepage (as distinct from a web page there seems to be a difference or perception that there is) doesn't cost money but i am only allocagted so much space in this caes 5 meg by my isp, also homepages like mine lose lots of contacts when we change isp's for one reason or another, so literally we have to start all over again when we make those changes. us simple folk can't afford domain name nor can we afford web masters to set our pages up and make sure we get all the top search positions but the money chasers can it si after all a legitimate tax deduction for them, and they flood the market so to speak. when people do searches they rarely peruse past the first 20 hits (there could be over a hundred hits to select from)so if those positions are flooded then us little people don't even get noticed. before i left brissy i was contacted by a lady seeking help with pc she ahd consulted with a certified pc designer, who spoke way over this ladies head and after collecting her fee the convert had little or nothing to go on, she found me somehow and for free i went to her place abotu a 2 hour round trip and discussed things as i saw it (she ahd seen my layout) then i took her to her local demolition yard to show her different material she could use for garden edges, she's still pc gardening. and i think that near most of us here would do the same thing. if she hadn't stumbled across me then would she still be interested in pc today? i dunno my crystal ball is broken. i think that 1 of the glasses of red cordail may have been bad the other day mmm wot u reckon? enjoy & take care len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
Howdy again, I'm chiming in all over the place *sigh*
"Fran" wrote in message ... "len gardener" wrote in message but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do (snip) and for discenteres just do a search under pc and see what you get lots and lots of certificates and diplomas, none of here is how simple pc can be so get started today. pc is a mind set not a design course. Well that is true to some extent, but if you think about it for a moment, just how many home veggie gardening pages do you find when you do a google search? If I just do a hunt using the word "vegetables" I'm going to get up every page with veggies on it whether I want it or not AND most of those pages will be about commercial ventures:- vegetable wholesalers, vegetarian restaurants, health practitioners extolling the value of their diet services that use vegetables, etc, etc etc. People like you, who put up a homepage that includes veggies growing, won't necessarily know how to put in the info needed for search engines to pick up the site. Also, since you also probably have to pay for your home page you are less likely to put in much info that the rest of us would like to see. The commercial world will always be to the forefront in putting the info out there because they will pay for professionals to make their page and they will pay to do it well and for it to come up in each and every search that uses the keyword of "permaculture". Too true, web advertising is budgeted for in businesses now days, it's hard to compete with that if you're an 'owner/builder' web page, but keep plugging away there (lol, i also think if you put 'vegetables' into a search engine you'd probably get a load of strange and probably unhygenic sounding porn judging by the crap that's been flooding this group lately :op) You may object to the making money approach and think that all pc practisioners should all do it for free and gratis but it has never been that way from what I can tell. Friends of mine ran a pc course way, way back in the very early days. They had met Mollison or knew him somehow and asked him to come and run a session. He agreed if he was put up for the time he was there. snip, but that must have been incredibly disheartening Mollison hasn't done too badly off permaculture either, which is reasonable since he & David Holmgren coined the phrase, then, iirc, copyrighted it, so making a bob off the idea has always been there, but it is a bit of a pain in the butt if you're given the impression that the only way to get into it is to shell out a large amount of dosh to 'learn' it... I'm with you there Len Anyway I suspect that the grassroots bodies who are doing pc are probably all busily out there doing it and not spending as much time on the computer. Just ignore the pc yuppies. You don't have to buy their way of doing it and as I said earlier I don't ever recall anyone who posted here regularly ever having had a cert or an interest in making money out of pc. Better to stick around here than those other forums. Excellent advice Fran :oD And everyone who used to post here was busily doing their own thing and learning as we went and sharing their experiences, it'd be great to get that back, but i suppose monitoring the group, responding to q's etc (which I know you guys do) and being welcoming to any new people is probably the best way to get the ng back from the spammers and breathe some life back into it... just to save replying further down: I loved your story about the compost and the worms, Fran - only people with gardeners hearts (and maybe fisherperson hearts) would think to save the worms, it did make me laugh, I'd be doing the same thing I think, and as to being 'old meat', I resemble... er... resent that remark, lmao Have a good weekend all, Andrea |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Fran" wrote in message ... Now that sounds like one very contented fisher person who wouldn't be dead for quids. Contented yessss very .... and fat I now know why I got married .............. its the food preparation |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Fran" wrote in message ... That sounds like a good idea, but where do we get the fresh meat from? You, me, Len, Tara, Andrea and Janet are all quite old meat and we've allc hewed this fat before. :-)) Mmmm meat .... mmmm fat..... oops Problem iniit ? Mark used to say it best when he said "we can't JUST talk about pc continually without the fluff" or something similar ... because unless new folks are coming into the group we would just grind to a halt saying the same things to each other over and over. Pete you really do need to play harder to get! Ok .... only female permaculturists can hug me ........is that better ? |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie: there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word out there? Here's a site I put together with beginners in mind... Elements of it could proabably be updated (i put it together as an experiment with some free software I got with some computer mag a few years ago) but it's still generally OK i think... http://www.gburnett.unisonplus.net/Perma/ Graham --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 02/07/2004 |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
"Graham Burnett" wrote in message
Here's a site I put together with beginners in mind... http://www.gburnett.unisonplus.net/Perma/ Nice site. and I see you mention "Beauty of Bath" apples. I've never tried these but put some grafts on a seedling apple last year along with a number of other very British apple scions. I have only lost a few of the grafts and that has been because I can't keep the water up to them because of the drought. Nice to see you back again Graham. Are you still pcing? |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:30:02 GMT, "Graham Burnett"
wrote: Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie: there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word out there? Here's a site I put together with beginners in mind... Elements of it could proabably be updated (i put it together as an experiment with some free software I got with some computer mag a few years ago) but it's still generally OK i think... http://www.gburnett.unisonplus.net/Perma/ I was planning to comment today and point out your site, Graham....it's a fabulous resource for the beginner, wanting to get a feel for what pc is all about. There are definitely non-commercial resources out there for those who want to fidn them. The question, I think, would have to be how can they be made easier to find? Geodyne |
open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots
Permaculture and the internet/google is basically a dead end or a long
winded search. But like most information that needs more than the 'spin' permaculture, in theory form, does not work well on the internet (for me anyway) What the internet/permaculture needs is visible examples to give it strength, and inspire. Below are the web sites I have found on permaculture or permaculture related, that offer more than 'I can sell you a pc' or have been designed badly/ have minimal information and do not give permaculture justice. http://pathtofreedom.com/ http://www.diggers.com.au/ http://www.ata.org.au/ http://www.organicdownunder.com/ http://www.seedsavers.net/index.html http://users.easystreet.com/ersson/ While I am not averse to reading, I have over half a dozen permaculture books on my shelf, my wants from the internet are different. To me, the internet needs 'documented' examples and resource links. Joining your local permaculture group, may assist you in keeping in touch with what others are doing and resources, but often they do have different approaches, live in different 'scenarios' etc. It would be great to see more 'good' permaculture examples being visible in the first 10 pages of a google search, but as one of you did point out, not everyone has the knowledge or resources to aquire this 'status'. And quite possible, those who practice permaculture do not always have time or resources to document it for the net. I personally kept a 2 year blogg on our development, but this year, while I have photographed the yards progress, I have not uploaded this information to any site. Mostly due to lack of time. http://www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty/ 2002/2003 My local permaculture group set up a in house mail list, which we use to converse (like you seem to here) with short queries. ie where to find a good timer supplier from last week, which my partner put up in html. http://www.auckett.net/permaculture/..._2nd_hand.html But wouldn't it be great if this was all found on one good site !! Hopefully our new site will soon be moved and I will be unemployed. I may have time in the near future to 'finish' off the new site and get it on some search engines. A friend site who has lots of interesting information is www.snakeshow.net In short : Permaculture is definately a grass roots movement. Unfortunately we are living in a word where 'high' advertising is now the selling movement, or possible it's saturation drowns out every other 'selling' product. I don't personally believe Permaculture lends itself well to the 'selling' approach, However, Permaculture may not be losing revelance as len points out, but rather I find it suffers from a 'all theory/few examples/you need the certificate' scenario. I personally find many permaculturists, or those who want to 'attempt' permaculture get bogged down with the theory, and achieve very little because of they are constantly in some 'design' process. People need examples they can relate to and achive on whatever level, and the internet could provide them. In reality Permaculture should be now thriving, and growing, as more and more people are opting for the 'down shift' or 'sea change' lifestyle, are concerned about the planet, eat more organic food etc etc. All which is fundemental to permaculture. This is my personal opinion :) Kirsty "Pete" wrote in message ... "Pinky" wrote in message ... Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie: there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word out there? Thats a good way to look at it, if we think about it, those of us who are using pc techniques daily dont think to take pics and notes to pass on ...we just get on with it. I personally think there is room for the teachers and if there's a market for a weekend crash course into pc then why wouldnt people who are able to teach it offer that service ? I understand what Len meant though, it could be very daunting for newcommers if they think that to be able to use permaculture means you have to be taught by someone who has a diploma in pc design, and if you search for pc on the net thats what comes across. We (this newsgroup) should be here as a resource for people who want simple and down to earth banter/advice/brain storming/idea echange about pc without it costing them anything, if they want to pursue a course then fine ... if not then fine.... but its important to get the message across I think Len was trying to make ... that you don't need to pay someone to teach you permaculture techniques anymore than you need to pay someone to teach you how to plant cabbages. Of course there was "fluff" on this NG .... it was a community and thats what made it so ....IMO thats why new folks jumped in and started posting cos it felt like a community not just an information exchange. PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one, ta :o) tim-tam for you .....and seeing as the female/male ratio looks pretty good from where I'm sitting .......I also think a group hug would be nice. :-) Just keep Len away from the red cordial |
Hi Kirsty,
"Kirsty" wrote in message news:411775ac@tyson... What the internet/permaculture needs is visible examples to give it strength, and inspire. I found that quite frustrating when i first got into permaculture (and the internet around the same time). Below are the web sites I have found on permaculture or permaculture related, that offer more than 'I can sell you a pc' or have been designed badly/ have minimal information and do not give permaculture justice. http://pathtofreedom.com/ http://www.diggers.com.au/ http://www.ata.org.au/ http://www.organicdownunder.com/ http://www.seedsavers.net/index.html http://users.easystreet.com/ersson/ bit of snippage for brevity It would be great to see more 'good' permaculture examples being visible in the first 10 pages of a google search, but as one of you did point out, not everyone has the knowledge or resources to aquire this 'status'. And quite possible, those who practice permaculture do not always have time or resources to document it for the net. I personally kept a 2 year blogg on our development, but this year, while I have photographed the yards progress, I have not uploaded this information to any site. Mostly due to lack of time. http://www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty/ 2002/2003 Nice site, you and your partner have obviously put in a lot of work at your place, where in Melbourne are you (no need to be too specific obviously :) i'm in the Dandenong Ranges for 115 more days then it's off to northern NSW and sunshine and subtropical climate for me!) My local permaculture group set up a in house mail list, which we use to converse (like you seem to here) with short queries. ie where to find a good timer supplier from last week, which my partner put up in html. http://www.auckett.net/permaculture/..._2nd_hand.html But wouldn't it be great if this was all found on one good site !! Yes it would, it would be a handy local resource. Hopefully our new site will soon be moved and I will be unemployed. I may have time in the near future to 'finish' off the new site and get it on some search engines. A friend site who has lots of interesting information is www.snakeshow.net Interesting site In short : Permaculture is definately a grass roots movement. Unfortunately we are living in a word where 'high' advertising is now the selling movement, or possible it's saturation drowns out every other 'selling' product. I don't personally believe Permaculture lends itself well to the 'selling' approach, However, Permaculture may not be losing revelance as len points out, but rather I find it suffers from a 'all theory/few examples/you need the certificate' scenario. I personally find many permaculturists, or those who want to 'attempt' permaculture get bogged down with the theory, and achieve very little because of they are constantly in some 'design' process. People need examples they can relate to and achive on whatever level, and the internet could provide them. In reality Permaculture should be now thriving, and growing, as more and more people are opting for the 'down shift' or 'sea change' lifestyle, are concerned about the planet, eat more organic food etc etc. All which is fundemental to permaculture. This is my personal opinion :) Kirsty Welcome to alt.permaculture Kirsty, it's dead as a doornail at the moment, tho we seem to spark up occassionally :) Andrea :) |
Welcome to alt.permaculture Kirsty, it's dead as a doornail at the moment, Mmmm where did everybody go? Maybe its a good sign - They are all to busy implementing permaculture in their lives Myk |
more like trying to work out how to turn a dollar or 2
len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/ my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send. |
Howdy again Myk! Glad to see you are still in the land of the living! I've
been doing some co-teaching with our mutual friend Merlyn, we are running the next Naturewise Design Course in North London along with Mark Warner this Autumn- drop me a line off list if you want to, you can contact me via my web page at www.spiralseed.co.uk Cheers for now, Graham "Myk Rushton" wrote in message ... Welcome to alt.permaculture Kirsty, it's dead as a doornail at the moment, Mmmm where did everybody go? Maybe its a good sign - They are all to busy implementing permaculture in their lives Myk --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 30/07/2004 |
Hi all,
PC Novice here so really just getting started in this field.. This person has hit the nail on the head for me.. I found this to be the case here on the web too. Another thing I find is that there is a ton of stuff for folks living in places they can do this year around and almost zilch for a cold climate newbie permie like myself.. Not being critical, just a plea for some help and maybe a nudge from you big brothers and sisters who have been doing this for years now.. my 2 cents smitty but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do to some degree you along with pete and others i hope we can count ourselves in as well are out there doing it and untill all that factional garbage this group was full of help and ideas going back and forth but now that the only thrust is from those chardinay yuppies looking for an easy buck. |
Hiya Smitty
Good to read ya. Permaculture can be as hard or easy as you want it to be. It's more than just planting food, it's how each element within the whole system interacts with each other to benefit not only you or me but benefits the system itself to make it work better and more efficiently. Some simple examples are using space within or around a chicken coop to grow not only food for the chickens but food for you which directly benefits from the chicken "outputs" manure, body warmth, pest control (careful thought needed there though) etc ... of course the chickens could be rabbits with a worm farm underneath to use the manure and convert it to vermicompost or ducks for more reliable snail control (and slightly safer veggies), but the point is the "system" is built up with a wholistic plan that integrates any and all those different elements so that they compliment each other. The climate of a particular area can be a major factor in deciding what you can grow or what species of livestock you can keep but its not really a factor as far as the principles of PC go .... you can create your own system wherever you live ... each system uses what is available within the constraints of that climate ... it's a matter of honing the system to work best for your situation and location. *The grass is always greener section* I came from the UK to Australia thinking I could grow anything here .... not so ... the climatic differences whilst helping some things stop me from growing things I used to take for granted in the UK, here its as dry as England was wet, as hot as England was cold .. where I stayed indoors in England because of the knee deep snow ... now I stay indoors because its 40 deg C outside and the effect on any plants trying to stay alive is just as dramatic, here is crunchy dry grass where there was wet soggy or frozen grass, here is furnace hot drying Northerly winds where there was freezing 'cutting you to the bone' North winds .... its a tricky old world * end of grass is greener section* Point is ... it will never be wet enough/dry enough/sunny enough/cool enough wherever we live to do what we all want to do when we want to do it, the good news is that as far as PC is concerned it really doesn't matter ...... cos what ya got is exactly what your PC system can use, how its used depends on how you plan it and that determines how well each element works within the whole system. Not sure how many of the regulars are left on the NG, but there used to be a wealth of experience on here ...prolly still is ... the main thing to remember is we are all learning all the time ... no matter how long someone has been using PC, theres always another point of view to consider or another problem/solution that can be of interest to others. So ask away ...post away ... I'll help if I can and hopefully others will get involved too. (hope at least some of that makes sense) Pete wrote: Hi all, PC Novice here so really just getting started in this field.. This person has hit the nail on the head for me.. I found this to be the case here on the web too. Another thing I find is that there is a ton of stuff for folks living in places they can do this year around and almost zilch for a cold climate newbie permie like myself.. Not being critical, just a plea for some help and maybe a nudge from you big brothers and sisters who have been doing this for years now.. my 2 cents smitty but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do to some degree you along with pete and others i hope we can count ourselves in as well are out there doing it and untill all that factional garbage this group was full of help and ideas going back and forth but now that the only thrust is from those chardinay yuppies looking for an easy buck. |
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