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#31
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Mike Lyle schreef
I don't think what I said was matter of faith, surely? The dictionaries have a better chance than I do of identifying the first published use of a word, given that thousands of people like us are constantly sending in verifiable dated references: this isn't guesswork. When they quote examples from other dictionaries, they say so. Or do you mean they're not 100% reliable about the *meanings* of words? Of course you have to use your judgement, as with any reference book. No argument there. Mike. + + + I am not up to a detailed discussion of the relative merits of dictionaries. Still, I went to the Merriam Webster on-line and typed in "redcedar" to see when this was first used and if originally it might have been "red cedar". However the (by now universally accepted?) "redcedar" is not even in there, just "red cedar", which in all likelyhood is something entirely different (probably Toona spp?). Someone putting his faith in this dictionary would go badly wrong here. PvR |
#32
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Mike Lyle schreef
Meanwhile, Google has 17,200 *redcedar*, of which many are web addresses, and 890,000 *red cedar*. Google counts aren't the strongest evidence, of course; but they do give an impression of what people are typing. + + + Caution here! - redcedar will generate only hits for "redcedar" - while "red cedar" will present a cross-section of the sites using "cedar" (4.000.000) and those using "red" (54.000.000). To draw any kind of conclusion requires lots (and lots) of handwork or the application of statistics. Just to give an indication: + cedar just the color red 870.000 54.000.000 blue 200.000 2.000.000 white 1.240.000 61.000.000 black 810.000 84.000.000 I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway. PvR PvR |
#33
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
In article , P van
Rijckevorsel writes I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway. Googling for the phrase "black cedar" gives nearly a thousand hits; restricting it to pages also referring to Thuja cuts it down to 18. Black cedar seems to be current for Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'. I would understand "blue cedar" as Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca', tho' I would use "Blue Atlas Cedar". Googling additionally finds Alaskan Weeping Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkaensis 'Glauca Pendula), Blue Cedar (Juniperus virginica 'Glauca'), Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani 'Glauca'), Weeping Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani '(Glauca) Pendula'), Oregon Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue') and Blue Cedar (Cedrus 'Feeling Blue'), at which point I stopped looking further. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
#34
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
In article , P van
Rijckevorsel writes I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway. Googling for the phrase "black cedar" gives nearly a thousand hits; restricting it to pages also referring to Thuja cuts it down to 18. Black cedar seems to be current for Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'. I would understand "blue cedar" as Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca', tho' I would use "Blue Atlas Cedar". Googling additionally finds Alaskan Weeping Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkaensis 'Glauca Pendula), Blue Cedar (Juniperus virginica 'Glauca'), Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani 'Glauca'), Weeping Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani '(Glauca) Pendula'), Oregon Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue') and Blue Cedar (Cedrus 'Feeling Blue'), at which point I stopped looking further. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
#35
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
Stewart Robert Hinsley schreef
Googling for the phrase "black cedar" gives nearly a thousand hits; restricting it to pages also referring to Thuja cuts it down to 18. Black cedar seems to be current for Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'. I would understand "blue cedar" as Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca', tho' I would use "Blue Atlas Cedar". Googling additionally finds Alaskan Weeping Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkatensis 'Glauca Pendula), Blue Cedar (Juniperus virginica 'Glauca'), Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani 'Glauca'), Weeping Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani '(Glauca) Pendula'), Oregon Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue') and Blue Cedar (Cedrus 'Feeling Blue'), at which point I stopped looking further. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley + + + Yes, this means descending into the depths of cultivardom. Might be more interesting to look for the ratio between Chamaecyparis nootkatensis and its competing names, although offhand I will guess that it is no contest. PvR |
#36
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
In article ,
P van Rijckevorsel wrote: Mike Lyle schreef That's interesting: the one-word form hasn't yet reached my corner of the universe. I'll keep my eye open for it. Meanwhile, Google has 17,200 *redcedar*, of which many are web addresses, and 890,000 *red cedar*. Google counts aren't the strongest evidence, of course; but they do give an impression of what people are typing. I don't know about *toona*, though I do eat *tuna*: you're probably more up-to-date than I am , as I still place Western red cedar in *Thuja*. Mike. + + + Well, to me usage in this case is not very interesting since I already have a fair idea: - redcedar is a US term, and dominates the official documentation. It refers to eastern, southern and western redcedar. This last is Thuja plicata and will be the wood referred to by the general US populace as "redcedar", "red cedar" or (especially, and by a comfortable margin) "cedar" whenever a wood is being discussed. - red cedar in the same official US documentation will be a cedar that is red, or more particular has red wood. This will usually be Toona (fam Meliaceae), yielding "Australian red cedar" and "Asian red cedar" My point was that the dictionary consulted was absolutely clueless and off by at least two orders of magnitude. Dictionaries are fine in their place, but no use when you really need them (sort of like banks, only worse) Here in Ontario we call Thuja occidentalis (eastern) white cedar and Juniperus virginiana (eastern) red cedar. The intensely aromatic red heartwood of the latter has long been used to make chests and line closets to deter moths. North of the range of red cedar, people put branches of white cedar in with woolen clothes to deter moths. White cedar is sometimes called arborvitae here. I've never seen "redcedar", only "red cedar", until this thread, FWIW. |
#37
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:23:56 GMT, "P van Rijckevorsel"
wrote: Mike Lyle schreef Meanwhile, Google has 17,200 *redcedar*, of which many are web addresses, and 890,000 *red cedar*. Google counts aren't the strongest evidence, of course; but they do give an impression of what people are typing. + + + Caution here! - redcedar will generate only hits for "redcedar" - while "red cedar" will present a cross-section of the sites using "cedar" (4.000.000) and those using "red" (54.000.000). To draw any kind of conclusion requires lots (and lots) of handwork or the application of statistics. Just to give an indication: + cedar just the color red 870.000 54.000.000 blue 200.000 2.000.000 white 1.240.000 61.000.000 black 810.000 84.000.000 I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway. PvR PvR when using two words, put them into quotes, like "red cedar" with that google gave me 163, 000 hits "blue cedar" gives 1,420 of course the first three are for BnBs or Inns with "blue cedar" -bed -breakfast -lodge -Inn -coaster (for roller coaster" and you get 924 "white cedar" 42,200 "black cedar" 956 of course the first two are for pencils, then there are the boxes, schools, etc. |
#38
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Tamarisk: origin of "salt cedar"
P van Rijckevorsel wrote:
Well, to me usage in this case is not very interesting since I already have a fair idea: - redcedar is a US term, and dominates the official documentation. It refers to eastern, southern and western redcedar. This last is Thuja plicata and will be the wood referred to by the general US populace as "redcedar", "red cedar" or (especially, and by a comfortable margin) "cedar" whenever a wood is being discussed. - red cedar in the same official US documentation will be a cedar that is red, or more particular has red wood. This will usually be Toona (fam Meliaceae), yielding "Australian red cedar" and "Asian red cedar" Beverly Erlebacher schreef Here in Ontario we call Thuja occidentalis (eastern) white cedar and Juniperus virginiana (eastern) red cedar. The intensely aromatic red heartwood of the latter has long been used to make chests and line closets to deter moths. North of the range of red cedar, people put branches of white cedar in with woolen clothes to deter moths. White cedar is sometimes called arborvitae here. I've never seen "redcedar", only "red cedar", until this thread, FWIW. + + + As I noted above "redcedar" is a US term and has its stronghold in the official documentation. In everything I have of the USFS (Forestry Service) this is used, but my set of USFS-publications does not appear to extend further back than 1948. It is also in the field guides, both the Audubon and Peterson. Or to be accurate: of the three Peterson guides, all by the same author, the modern ones (Eastern, 1988, 1998 and Western Trees, 1992, 1998) use "redcedar", while the old one (Trees and Shrubs, 1958, 1986) uses "red cedar". In Western Trees the author notes that he would welcome Canoe-cedar instead of Western redcedar. The average US-citizen uses "cedar" (when not used as a general category) for Thuja plicata (western redcedar) and "aromatic cedar" for Juniperus virginiana (eastern redcedar). The use of "cedar" is connected to the size of the stands rather than to a particular tree. To call Thuja "arbor-vitae" goes back quite some time (perhaps long enough for Mike Lyle's dictionaries to have captured usage? :^). PvR |
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