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Thesis: all fruits that are vegetables are berries
PvR |
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mel turner schreef
Would "berries" include "pepos"? [Probably it should.] + + + Yes + + + Is an avocado a regarded as a "vegetable" or an oily nonsweet "fruit"? If a "vegetable", is it a drupe or a 1-seeded berry? Drupe, as I recall. There reportedly is a thin stony endocarp, not just a seed coat. + + + The lecture I attended had them as berries, but the lecturer was notably unsure of his ground, making some other errors as well. Actually we were worried also about Callicarpa. The local flora (the equivalent of Stewart Robert Hinsley's Stace) describes them as berry-like drupes (which is wonderful for education purposes). Their being drupes is supported by http://www.biosurvey.ou.edu/shrub/caam2.htm one of the examples of a drupe with multiple stones in them, I suppose. Hard to demonstrate (their being drupes) in the field anyway! PvR |
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mel turner schreef
Is an avocado a regarded as a "vegetable" or an oily nonsweet "fruit"? If a "vegetable", is it a drupe or a 1-seeded berry? Drupe, as I recall. There reportedly is a thin stony endocarp, not just a seed coat. + + + I am not sure. I don't seem to have very many books at hand to go into the matter. However "Fruits of the Guianan flora", by van Roosmalen, says berry. Websites tend to avoid the question but this one is in favor of berry: http://cal.nbc.upenn.edu/poison/plan...e/lectavoc.htm It seems to me that there is regular on this NG who knows all about avocados, and who might be willing to put in a definite word ;-) PvR |
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Avocado is a one-seeded berry. The papery membrane surrounding the cotyledons
is seedcoat. In the Mexican (Persea americana ssp. drymifolia) and Guatemalan (P. americana ssp. nubigena) races, there is a single seedcoat. In the West Indian race (P. americana ssp. americana), the coat is separated into two distinct layers. But I've never heard anyone suggest that the outer one is endocarp. |
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MMMavocado schreef
Avocado is a one-seeded berry. The papery membrane surrounding the cotyledons is seedcoat. In the Mexican (Persea americana ssp. drymifolia) and Guatemalan (P. americana ssp. nubigena) races, there is a single seedcoat. In the West Indian race (P. americana ssp. americana), the coat is separated into two distinct layers. But I've never heard anyone suggest that the outer one is endocarp. + + + Thank you! Well, Mel, it is official now ... PvR |
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Avocado is a one-seeded berry.
How does it differ from a drupe, like peaches and cherries? Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
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Avocado is a one-seeded berry.
Iris Cohen schreef How does it differ from a drupe, like peaches and cherries? + + + He just explained that. In avocado the tissue arising out of the carpel that is closest to the seed is fleshy. An avocado consists of exocarp, mesocarp and seed. In a drupe the seed is inside a 'stone' which means that the tissue arising out of the carpel closest to the seed is quite hard. A drupe consists of exocarp, mesocarp, endocarp and seed. PvR |
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And yet you insist the pulpy (not fleshy) fruit of a banana is a berry when
in fact it is not. The classical definition of a drupe is that it is a one seeded berry. Having a woody stone endocarp surrounding the seed has nothing at all to do with the definition. If the fruit has two seeds, it automatically becomes a berry by default. So what about those plants that have fleshy fruit with 1 to 3 seeds in them? P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message ... Avocado is a one-seeded berry. Iris Cohen schreef How does it differ from a drupe, like peaches and cherries? + + + He just explained that. In avocado the tissue arising out of the carpel that is closest to the seed is fleshy. An avocado consists of exocarp, mesocarp and seed. In a drupe the seed is inside a 'stone' which means that the tissue arising out of the carpel closest to the seed is quite hard. A drupe consists of exocarp, mesocarp, endocarp and seed. PvR |
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Cereoid-UR12- schreef
And yet you insist the pulpy (not fleshy) fruit of a banana is a berry when in fact it is not. + + + A banana is berry by default, it is not worthwhile to come up with a different term. Since plantains are eaten more or less as vegetables these support the thesis! + + + The classical definition of a drupe is that it is a one seeded berry. + + + By "classical" you mean the ancient Romans? Or maybe the Greeks? + + + Having a woody stone endocarp surrounding the seed has nothing at all to do with the definition. + + + That is only because you are using the "classical definition". If you were to look at contemporary definitions you would find otherwise + + + If the fruit has two seeds, it automatically becomes a berry by default. + + + Nope. It is less and less surprising you are confused about bananas. + + + So what about those plants that have fleshy fruit with 1 to 3 seeds in them? + + + Depends on the presence of an endocarp. Easy, isn't it? PvR |
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The same way you are a schmendrick by default, Rinkytink.
It shows the true extent of your lack of enlightenment on the subject. It does appear that you never do your own homework. In Spjut, R.W. (1994) A SYSTEMATIC TREATMENT OF FRUIT TYPES. Memoires of the N. Y. Bot. Gard. 70: 93, the fruit of a banana would be considered to be a Pepo! The use of the term is not restricted to the Cucurbitaceae. The more specific term that has been given is a Musidium. P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message ... Cereoid-UR12- schreef And yet you insist the pulpy (not fleshy) fruit of a banana is a berry when in fact it is not. + + + A banana is berry by default, it is not worthwhile to come up with a different term. Since plantains are eaten more or less as vegetables these support the thesis! + + + The classical definition of a drupe is that it is a one seeded berry. + + + By "classical" you mean the ancient Romans? Or maybe the Greeks? + + + Having a woody stone endocarp surrounding the seed has nothing at all to do with the definition. + + + That is only because you are using the "classical definition". If you were to look at contemporary definitions you would find otherwise + + + If the fruit has two seeds, it automatically becomes a berry by default. + + + Nope. It is less and less surprising you are confused about bananas. + + + So what about those plants that have fleshy fruit with 1 to 3 seeds in them? + + + Depends on the presence of an endocarp. Easy, isn't it? PvR |
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In article ,
wrote... MMMavocado schreef Avocado is a one-seeded berry. The papery membrane surrounding the cotyledons is seedcoat. In the Mexican (Persea americana ssp. drymifolia) and Guatemalan (P. americana ssp. nubigena) races, there is a single seedcoat. In the West Indian race (P. americana ssp. americana), the coat is separated into two distinct layers. But I've never heard anyone suggest that the outer one is endocarp. + + + Thank you! Well, Mel, it is official now ... I wasn't quite completely convinced by the above, since I'd seen some equally authoritative-sounding [for all that's worth!] statements elsewhere that conflicted. [But see below for strong support.] I'd hesitated at first because I'd vaguely remembered reading somewhere that avocados actually varied as to whether there was an appreciable development of a hard endocarp [possibly the same differences pointed to above?], and thus would vary as to whether the fruit would be classified as a drupe or as a 1-seeded berry. I then checked briefly, and initially didn't find anyone calling the fruit a berry, but did find several calling it a drupe: http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilson/pp/f97/fruits.htm or http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...u98/fruits.htm "II. Other fruits and fruit-like structures: 3. DRUPE: Single carpel, single-seeded, pericarp tissue differentiated into THREE layers: EXOCARP, MESOCARP, ENDOCARP: Peach - exocarp with fuzz Nectarine and Plum - exocarp without fuzz Almond - exocarp/mesocarp removed, just PYRENE [=endocarp and seed] Avocado - endocarp VERY thin Coconut - mesocarp fibrous ,[dispersal], testa thin, endosperm both solid [meat] and liquid [milk] Raspberry - an AGGREGATE (separate ovaries of one flower joined together) of small drupes [druplets]" [...] "TAXA EXAMINED - FRUIT LAB LOCAL NAME GENUS SPECIES FAMILY CLASS FRUIT TYPE Carpel# [...] Avocado Persea americana Lauraceae Dicot Drupe 1" http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...g/laupage1.htm "The Magnoliidae Family Overview - The Laurales Lauraceae - the Laurel Family The typical fruit type for the family - a drupe - is encountered with the avocado (Persea americana) - the exocarp is peeled, the mesocarp is fleshy, and the endocarp is reduced to a thin, brown covering of the avocado seed." http://flora.huh.harvard.edu:8080/fl...taxon_id=10479 "5. Lauraceae Jussieu Laurel Family [..] Fruits drupes, drupe borne on pedicel with or without persistent tepals at base, or seated in ± deeplycup-shaped receptacle (cupule), or enclosed in accrescent floral tube. Seed 1; endosperm absent." [...] "8. Persea Miller, Gard. Dict. Abr. ed. 4. 1754. [...] Drupe dark blue to black, nearly globose, borne on pedicel with tepals persistent at base; cupule absent." http://pas.byu.edu/AgHrt100/avocado.htm "The fruit is a drupe, having a stony endocarp." But the "berry" description is gaining strong support: http://www.cas.muohio.edu/~meicenrd/...logy/dln11.htm Lauraceae (Laurel Family) [...] "III. Fruit A. 1-seeded berry or drupe" http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/bot...sea/index.html "This berry is truly unusual, not only because it is oily, not sweet, but also because it never softens while still on the tree, where it remains hard and continues to grow. [...] The peel or rind (exocarp) consists of an epidermis with a cuticle, but in the warty fruits, the epidermis is replaced with cork from a cork cambium. The warts or bumps are airy zones in the cork called lenticels. Beneath this are several layers of cells, the innermost ones being sclerenchyma. The thick, green mesocarp is composed of millions of small parenchyma cells, some that are specialized for oil storage and others that have smaller amounts of oils. The endocarp consists of several layers of thin-walled cells. In the center, the seed has a double seed coat, two cotyledons rich in starch, and a relatively small embryo." http://www.cabi-publishing.org/books...1993575Ch2.pdf Seems like a nice botanical treatment of the avocado. ["p. 16" (= 2nd page of the link)]: "Fruit small, globose to large fleshy, obovoid one-seeded berry in subgenus _Persea_." [p. 30] "The avocado fruit is botanically a one-seeded berry (Fig. 2.3f), and is very variable in size (50 g to nearly 2 kg), shape (round, oval, pyriform), rind characteristics (thickness, surface features, colour), flesh, and seed characteristics (size, tightness in cavity, etc.). Cummings and Schroeder (1942) described basic fruit anatomy. [...] The innermost flesh is a rather indistinct endocarp, made up of a few rows of smaller, more flattened parenchyma cells. It is botanically incorrect to refer to the flesh as a mesocarp, as by definition the flesh of a berry fruit comprises mesocarp plus endocarp." [p 32] "The role of previously unreported tissues in avocado fruit development has been outlined by Steyn et al. (1993) they not that the vascularized part of the seed coat is actually a pachychalaza, with the testa (the contribution of the integuments) representing only a very small non-vascularized portion." refs cited above: Cummings, K and Schroeder, C. A. 1942. Anatomy of the avocado fruit. California Avocado SocietyYearbook 1942, 56-64. Steyn, E. M. A., Robbertse, P. J., and D. Smith. 1993. An anatomical study of ovary-to-cuke development in consistently low-producing trees of the "Fuerte" avocado (Persea americana Mill.) with special reference to seed abortion. Sexual Plant Reproduction 6: 87-97. cheers |
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In article ,
wrote... And yet you insist the pulpy (not fleshy) fruit of a banana is a berry when in fact it is not. Why isn't it? Well, I've seen a wild banana species with more or less dehiscent, self-peeling rinds, but other than that dehiscence, why not call it a "berry"? I've seen bananas called thus, e.g.: http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...99/fruits2.htm [I do recall a bright student in class stumping an instructor with "Apart from not belonging to Cucurbitaceae, why isn't a banana a 'pepo'?" The instructor had to agree that there was little or no difference from the general definition of "pepo" that he'd given the class.] The classical definition of a drupe is that it is a one seeded berry. Where can one find this definition? It's unfamiliar to me. As I understand the usual definitions, "berries" can be one-seeded, and "drupes" can be several-seeded, either with one several-seeded stone or with several separate stones in one fruit. See the "berries" of Ilex for an example of the latter form of drupe: http://biodiversity.uno.edu/delta/an...w/aquifoli.htm "Fruit fleshy; indehiscent; a drupe. The drupes with separable pyrenes (as many pyrenes as locules)." Having a woody stone endocarp surrounding the seed has nothing at all to do with the definition. Not your "classical definition" perhaps, but it has everything to do with the only botanical definition of "drupe" I'm familiar with. If the fruit has two seeds, it automatically becomes a berry by default. Unless there is a stony endocarp, in which case it's a drupe. So what about those plants that have fleshy fruit with 1 to 3 seeds in them? Berries or drupes, most likely, depending on whether there are hard stony endocarps present. P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message ... Avocado is a one-seeded berry. Iris Cohen schreef How does it differ from a drupe, like peaches and cherries? + + + He just explained that. In avocado the tissue arising out of the carpel that is closest to the seed is fleshy. An avocado consists of exocarp, mesocarp and seed. The question seems to be, is there a thin hard endocarp present in avocados or not? Is the apparent seed coat really just a seed coat? Accounts I've seen differ, but http://www.cabi-publishing.org/books...1993575Ch2.pdf seems to definitively say "it's a berry". In a drupe the seed is inside a 'stone' which means that the tissue arising out of the carpel closest to the seed is quite hard. A drupe consists of exocarp, mesocarp, endocarp and seed. Well, technically, all fruits will consist of these three pericarp layers, but they obviously differ in their patterns of histological differentiation. Drupes have fleshy mesocarps and stony endocarps. cheers |
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Cereoid-UR12- schreef
It does appear that you never do your own homework. In Spjut, R.W. (1994) A SYSTEMATIC TREATMENT OF FRUIT TYPES. Memoires of the N. Y. Bot. Gard. 70: 93, the fruit of a banana would be considered to be a Pepo! The use of the term is not restricted to the Cucurbitaceae. The more specific term that has been given is a Musidium. + + + Hey, progress! You actually went and opened the book. Maybe there is hope for you yet! PvR |
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mel turner schreef
I'd hesitated at first because I'd vaguely remembered reading somewhere that avocados actually varied as to whether there was an appreciable development of a hard endocarp [possibly the same differences pointed to above?], and thus would vary as to whether the fruit would be classified as a drupe or as a 1-seeded berry. I then checked briefly, and initially didn't find anyone calling the fruit a berry, but did find several calling it a drupe: http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilson/pp/f97/fruits.htm or http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...u98/fruits.htm + + + This is not very convincing, as these don't meet what you yourself said about berries and drupes. This actually goes a long way in supporting Cereoid! + + + http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...g/laupage1.htm The typical fruit type for the family - a drupe - + + + This is a remarkable statement. In his Flowering plants of the world, Heywood states that the fruit in Lauraceae is a berry or drupaceous Also note: http://biodiversity.uno.edu/delta/an...w/lauracea.htm + + + http://flora.huh.harvard.edu:8080/fl...taxon_id=10479 + + + dead + + + http://pas.byu.edu/AgHrt100/avocado.htm "The fruit is a drupe, having a stony endocarp." + + + ? ? ? This is a remarkable statement, maybe unique? + + + http://www.cas.muohio.edu/~meicenrd/...logy/dln11.htm + + + This site has interesting view of taxonomy: " Artificial Group Floriferae Polypetalae Subclass Rosidae " + + + http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/bot...y/Persea/index ..html "This berry is truly unusual, not only because it is oily, not sweet, but also because it never softens while still on the tree, where it remains hard and continues to grow. + + + What I think noteworthy is that the Lauraceae expert at the Missouri Bot Garden is avoiding the use of terms like "berry" and "drupe" when describing new species. PvR |
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A drupe consists of exocarp, mesocarp, endocarp and seed.
And if the amateur botanist is in the dark about all these distinctions, is it called carpel tunnel syndrome? Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
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A drupe consists of exocarp, mesocarp, endocarp and seed.
Iris Cohen schreef And if the amateur botanist is in the dark about all these distinctions, is it called carpel tunnel syndrome? + + + Depends. The professional botanist is said to suffer from carpel tunnel vision. The amateur likely just feels lost at sea, and is on the lookout for a carpel tunnel steamer. PvR |
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I've been doing actual research and citing references all along.
You might try doing the same, Arsewipe. You might learn something and actually know what you are talking about for a change. You are the hopeless one, Rinkytink. P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message ... Cereoid-UR12- schreef It does appear that you never do your own homework. In Spjut, R.W. (1994) A SYSTEMATIC TREATMENT OF FRUIT TYPES. Memoires of the N. Y. Bot. Gard. 70: 93, the fruit of a banana would be considered to be a Pepo! The use of the term is not restricted to the Cucurbitaceae. The more specific term that has been given is a Musidium. + + + Hey, progress! You actually went and opened the book. Maybe there is hope for you yet! PvR |
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You pretty much answered you own question as to why a banana is actually a
pepo. The banana-like fruit of some Yucca would be considered a pepo also. Why not try looking in botanical dictionaries for the definitions? I know it seems a radical thing to suggest but books in libraries are still far more reliable as sources of info than the Internet. You don't want to be like Rinkytink and just make it all up off the top of your head, do you? If a fleshy fruit has several seeds with a stone endocarp, they would still be called berries not drupes. 1 seed = drupe, several seeds = berry. That's all there is to it. The presence or absence of a stone endocarp has nothing to do with it. mel turner wrote in message ... In article , wrote... And yet you insist the pulpy (not fleshy) fruit of a banana is a berry when in fact it is not. Why isn't it? Well, I've seen a wild banana species with more or less dehiscent, self-peeling rinds, but other than that dehiscence, why not call it a "berry"? I've seen bananas called thus, e.g.: http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...99/fruits2.htm [I do recall a bright student in class stumping an instructor with "Apart from not belonging to Cucurbitaceae, why isn't a banana a 'pepo'?" The instructor had to agree that there was little or no difference from the general definition of "pepo" that he'd given the class.] The classical definition of a drupe is that it is a one seeded berry. Where can one find this definition? It's unfamiliar to me. As I understand the usual definitions, "berries" can be one-seeded, and "drupes" can be several-seeded, either with one several-seeded stone or with several separate stones in one fruit. See the "berries" of Ilex for an example of the latter form of drupe: http://biodiversity.uno.edu/delta/an...w/aquifoli.htm "Fruit fleshy; indehiscent; a drupe. The drupes with separable pyrenes (as many pyrenes as locules)." Having a woody stone endocarp surrounding the seed has nothing at all to do with the definition. Not your "classical definition" perhaps, but it has everything to do with the only botanical definition of "drupe" I'm familiar with. If the fruit has two seeds, it automatically becomes a berry by default. Unless there is a stony endocarp, in which case it's a drupe. So what about those plants that have fleshy fruit with 1 to 3 seeds in them? Berries or drupes, most likely, depending on whether there are hard stony endocarps present. |
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Cereoid-UR12- schreef
If a fleshy fruit has several seeds with a stone endocarp, they would still be called berries not drupes. 1 seed = drupe, several seeds = berry. That's all there is to it. The presence or absence of a stone endocarp has nothing to do with it. + + + And the earth is flat and we should be careful not to go near the edge, for fear of falling of. PvR |
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Cereoid-UR12- schreef
You might try doing the same. What, eat banana's? Or whatever passes for research with you ... PvR |
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Too late for you, Rinkytink. Your head is flat and you've gone over the edge
long ago. In any case, you are by far the most obnoxious flaming fruit in this group. P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message ... Cereoid-UR12- schreef If a fleshy fruit has several seeds with a stone endocarp, they would still be called berries not drupes. 1 seed = drupe, several seeds = berry. That's all there is to it. The presence or absence of a stone endocarp has nothing to do with it. + + + And the earth is flat and we should be careful not to go near the edge, for fear of falling of. PvR |
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Its a shame that your monkey brain cannot handle the concept. Most of your
kind loves bananas. Research is a lot more than just surfing the Internet with your toes, Bonzo. P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message ... Cereoid-UR12- schreef You might try doing the same. What, eat banana's? Or whatever passes for research with you ... PvR |
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Cereoid-UR12- schreef
Research is a lot more than just surfing the Internet + + + Another glimmer of insight! Now apply it to yourself. PvR |
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Rinkytink, you are still hold the title as the biggest garden troll and
freelance fluffboy fruit on the internet. Nobody can touch you nor would ever want to. Now go and munch on some holly berries and see if they are really drupes! P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message ... Cereoid-UR12- schreef Research is a lot more than just surfing the Internet + + + Another glimmer of insight! Now apply it to yourself. PvR |
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Cereoid-UR12- schreef
Now go and munch on some holly berries and see if they are really drupes! + + + Your ideas of research are really limited to eating fruits, aren't they? PvR |
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Unless you're alluding to Halle Berry and me munching on tropical fruits on
some deserted Caribbean island, there is nothing more to say to you. I'm much too busy doing research. P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message ... Cereoid-UR12- schreef Now go and munch on some holly berries and see if they are really drupes! + + + Your ideas of research are really limited to eating fruits, aren't they? PvR |
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In article , [P
van Rijckevorsel] wrote... mel turner schreef I'd hesitated at first because I'd vaguely remembered reading somewhere that avocados actually varied as to whether there was an appreciable development of a hard endocarp [possibly the same differences pointed to above?], and thus would vary as to whether the fruit would be classified as a drupe or as a 1-seeded berry. I then checked briefly, and initially didn't find anyone calling the fruit a berry, but did find several calling it a drupe: http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilson/pp/f97/fruits.htm or http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...u98/fruits.htm + + + This is not very convincing, as these don't meet what you yourself said about berries and drupes. ?? Oh. I get it. Yes, they incorrectly generalize that drupes are always single-seeded and 1-carpellate, and that berries are multi- seeded. Yes, that's a bad mistake. I just cited them because they are examples of people calling avocados "drupes" with ["_very_ thin"] stony endocarps]. This actually goes a long way in supporting Cereoid! I don't see how it could, other than the seed number mistake that he also makes. + + + http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...g/laupage1.htm The typical fruit type for the family - a drupe - + + + This is a remarkable statement. In his Flowering plants of the world, Heywood states that the fruit in Lauraceae is a berry or drupaceous And I've seen and cited similar statements. Of course they mean by this that the fruit is a drupe in some species [= with stony endocarp present] and a 1-seeded berry in others [i.e., endocarp not stony]. Also note: http://biodiversity.uno.edu/delta/an...w/lauracea.htm Good link. [The Families of Flowering Plants] + + + http://flora.huh.harvard.edu:8080/fl...taxon_id=10479 + + + dead + + + It still works for me. [It's just the _Flora of North America_ online page for Lauraceae, which calls the fruit "drupes"]. http://pas.byu.edu/AgHrt100/avocado.htm "The fruit is a drupe, having a stony endocarp." + + + ? ? ? This is a remarkable statement, maybe unique? + + + The preceding other sites would presumably also agree [but incorrectly?] that a ["very thin"] stony endocarp is present. http://www.cas.muohio.edu/~meicenrd/...logy/dln11.htm + + + This site has interesting view of taxonomy: " Artificial Group Floriferae Polypetalae Subclass Rosidae " + + + A tad archaic or idiosyncratic, perhaps. http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/bot...y/Persea/index .html "This berry is truly unusual, not only because it is oily, not sweet, but also because it never softens while still on the tree, where it remains hard and continues to grow. + + + What I think noteworthy is that the Lauraceae expert at the Missouri Bot Garden is avoiding the use of terms like "berry" and "drupe" when describing new species. Is their expert unable or unwilling to section the fruits to see if a stony endocarp is present, or does he perhaps feel the whole definitional issue is just too confusing? cheers |
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In his Flowering plants of the world, Heywood states that the fruit in
Lauraceae is a berry or drupaceous mel turner schreef And I've seen and cited similar statements. Of course they mean by this that the fruit is a drupe in some species [= with stony endocarp present] and a 1-seeded berry in others [i.e., endocarp not stony]. + + + It is always dangerous to assume too much. If Heywood intended "berry or drupe" he would have said so. What exactly he means is a little uncertain, but it is clear he perceives a problem + + + http://flora.huh.harvard.edu:8080/fl...taxon_id=10479 + + + dead + + + It still works for me. [It's just the _Flora of North America_ online page for Lauraceae, which calls the fruit "drupes"]. + + + Still dead. However I circumnavigated it and this is a description by the same expert from the Miss. Bot. Gard., who elsewhere goes to great lengths to avoid committing himself as to fruit type. Maybe the editor made up his mind for him? Anyway quite remarkable, since almost everybody agrees that at least some Lauraceae have berries. + + + This site has interesting view of taxonomy: " Artificial Group Floriferae Polypetalae Subclass Rosidae " A tad archaic or idiosyncratic, perhaps. + + + A pretty big tad! + + + What I think noteworthy is that the Lauraceae expert at the Missouri Bot Garden is avoiding the use of terms like "berry" and "drupe" when describing new species. Is their expert unable or unwilling to section the fruits to see if a stony endocarp is present, or does he perhaps feel the whole definitional issue is just too confusing? + + + He goes to great length on other details, so I doubt it is laziness. PvR |
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Obviously you have been doing too much pontificating and have not paying
attention, Melvin. Are you aspiring to be Rinkytink's lap dog? I gave a much better reference than the one you cite with out-dated second-hand vague definitions. It is a almost a crime that some references books have such lousy poorly conceived definitions. It really doesn't matter that someone like you is under the mistaken impression that what they say is gospel. Here is a more thoughtful and thoroughly researched reference on the subject: Spjut, R.W. (1994) A SYSTEMATIC TREATMENT OF FRUIT TYPES. Memoires of the N. Y. Bot. Gard. vol. 70. mel turner wrote in message ... In article , [Cereoid-UR12-] wrote... You pretty much answered you own question as to why a banana is actually a pepo. The banana-like fruit of some Yucca would be considered a pepo also. And a "pepo" is considered to be one particular type of "berry". Why not try looking in botanical dictionaries for the definitions? I've done that. Have you? The botanical dictionaries, etc. I've checked all seem to agree with my usage, and not with yours. Can you find a botanical dictionary or other botanical text that actually agrees with your definitions of "berry" and "drupe" below [the "presence or absence of a stone endocarp has nothing to do with it" part]? I know it seems a radical thing to suggest but books in libraries are still far more reliable as sources of info than the Internet. Some of those cited links were for things such as the _Flora of North America_, which is of course is also in book form. But sure, books are great. Can you cite any books that agree with you on this definitional question? See below for some you can skip, since they don't. You don't want to be like Rinkytink and just make it all up off the top of your head, do you? If a fleshy fruit has several seeds with a stone endocarp, they would still be called berries not drupes. By laymen, perhaps, not by botanists who know of the more strict technical definitions given in those botanical dictionaries. 1 seed = drupe, several seeds = berry. That's all there is to it. The presence or absence of a stone endocarp has nothing to do with it. Not according to the botanical dictionaries and glossaries in real botany books. It's the seed number that really seems to have little or nothing to do with it. A fleshy or pulpy fruit with stony endocarp around the seed or seeds = a drupe, a fleshy fruit without any stony endocarp = a berry. That's about all there is to it. Berries can have a single seed, and drupes can have several seeds [commonly enclosed in several separate stones as in Ilex or Aralia]. For example, a famous, classic ref: Fernald, M. L. 1950. Gray's Manual of Botany. Eighth ed. American Book Co., NY. From the glossary: "Drupe: A fleshy or pulpy fruit with the inner portion of the pericarp (1-locular and 1-seeded, or sometimes several-locular) hard or stony." From its description of the genus _Ilex_: "The berry-like drupe containing 4-9 nutlets." From the description of _Ilex vomitoria_: "drupes 5-8 mm in diameter; nutlets grooved on back." From the description of the Araliaceae "the fruit a few-several-locular drupe." A couple of newer texts that happen to be at hand: Hickey, M. and C. King. 2000. The Cambridge Illustrated Glossary of Botanical Terms. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. "drupe A fleshy fruit with one or more seeds, each enclosed within a stony endocarp, as in species of the genus Prunus (Rosaceae). "berry A fleshy indehiscent fruit with the seed or seeds immersed in pulp." "pepo A unilocular many seeded hard-walled berry that forms the fruit of _Cucurbita pepo_ (Marrow), _Cucumis melo_ (Melon) and some other members of the Cucurbitaceae." and Allaby, M. [ed.] 1998. A Dictionary of Plant Sciences. 2nd ed. Oxford University Press, Oxford. "drupe A fleshy fruit such as a plum containing one or a few seeds, each enclosed in a stony layer that is part of the fruit wall" This dictionary's "berry" definition stresses "no hard parts other than the seeds" [i.e., no stony endocarps], and lists 1-seeded dates among its examples of "berries". cheers |
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Cereoid-UR12- schreef
Here is a more thoughtful and thoroughly researched reference on the subject: Spjut, R.W. (1994) A SYSTEMATIC TREATMENT OF FRUIT TYPES. Memoires of the N. Y. Bot. Gard. vol. 70. + + + Yes, I can remember providing you with this reference, on the thought you might find it interesting. That is not to say it is generally well-accepted. PvR |
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Now I know the real reason they tell you to avoid avocados! And you thought it
was the cholesterol. Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
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Iris Cohen schreef
Now I know the real reason they tell you to avoid avocados! And you thought it was the cholesterol. + + + On the other hand an apple a day keeps the doctor away. What kind of fruits were apples again? Oh yes, they were apples-in-French. That makes life simpler, provided you like French. At least they definitely are not berries. Although come to think of it, they do not have a stony endocarp ... PvR |
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I was replying to Melvin, not you, troll boy.
Just because you haven't read a book, that is no reason to reject it out of hand. At least I cite an actual reference. That's far more than you ever do. Come to think of it, you never read any books so who cares what you think, Rinkytink. You only source of info is the Internet. That's not very good at all. If a plant taxonomy coloring book ever comes out, I will let you know. You will need to provide your own crayons, however. Not sure if you could handle the challenge of staying within the lines. Doubt your attention span is long enough to finish a page yet alone the whole book. P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message ... Cereoid-UR12- schreef Here is a more thoughtful and thoroughly researched reference on the subject: Spjut, R.W. (1994) A SYSTEMATIC TREATMENT OF FRUIT TYPES. Memoires of the N. Y. Bot. Gard. vol. 70. + + + Yes, I can remember providing you with this reference, on the thought you might find it interesting. That is not to say it is generally well-accepted. PvR |
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In article ,
[i] wrote... In article , wrote... In his Flowering plants of the world, Heywood states that the fruit in Lauraceae is a berry or drupaceous mel turner schreef And I've seen and cited similar statements. Of course they mean by this that the fruit is a drupe in some species [= with stony endocarp present] and a 1-seeded berry in others [i.e., endocarp not stony]. + + + It is always dangerous to assume too much. If Heywood intended "berry or drupe" he would have said so. What exactly he means is a little uncertain, but it is clear he perceives a problem + + + How so? I don't see how "berry or drupaceous" could mean anything different from "a berry or a drupe". I'm pretty sure fruits that are "drupaceous" are just drupes. AFAICS, it's simply the adjectival form. Or are there any fruits other than drupes that are "drupaceous"? Nevermind. I've since seen some indications that "drupaceous" is often used [but incorrectly?] to mean "drupelike [in what ways?], but not a true drupe". For example: http://www.anbg.gov.au/glossary/fl-aust.html drupe: a succulent fruit formed from one carpel [mt: not part of the definition, AFAIK] , having the seed(s) enclosed in an inner stony layer of the fruit wall. adj. drupaceous (which is often used to mean drupe-like but not strictly adrupe). cf. berry, pyrene. cheers |
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Cereoid-UR12- schreef
At least I cite an actual reference. That's far more than you ever do. + + + I gave you this particular reference, so what you are doing here is just mirroring + + + If a plant taxonomy coloring book ever comes out, I will let you know. + + + How much more behind the times can you get? Likely there have been enough of these to fill shelves upon shelves. Would not be surprised if these go back a long way indeed. A modern attempt in this direction is ISBN 0-06-500843-X + + + Not sure if you could handle the challenge of staying within the lines. + + + Voice of experience speaking? Maybe you are reliving your proudest moment, when you finally managed this? PvR |
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