http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA033

So Jo Ann tried droncit (a name brand prazi) with her goldfish and either the low
concentrations only knocked the gyros and dacs (monogenians) down temporarily OR, at
higher concentrations it ripped the gills up. She tried this stuff for around 6
months and gave up because of its affect on gills. Her GF were in reasonably soft
water. Soft water is not very protective against chemicals and metals.

The link above discusses monogeneans and that "Morbidity and mortality epidemics in
cultured fish caused by excessive parasite loads are associated with crowding,
inadequate sanitation and deterioration of water quality. Although monogeneans are
commonly found on wild fish, they are rarely a direct cause of disease or death in
free-ranging populations."

PP is very safe when stock solutions are used and the reason it is recommended by
Floyd et al is that it is also effective against columnaris which is likely to be
present with a monogenean outbreak. OTOH, the peroxide dip effectively kills both
dacs and gyros and is incredibly cheap and safe for fish and humans.

so now I guess it is up to everyone to pick their poison. Ingrid

On Sun, 4 May 2008 11:04:24 EDT, wrote:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA033

So Jo Ann tried droncit (a name brand prazi) with her goldfish and either the low
concentrations only knocked the gyros and dacs (monogenians) down temporarily OR, at
higher concentrations it ripped the gills up. She tried this stuff for around 6
months and gave up because of its affect on gills. Her GF were in reasonably soft
water. Soft water is not very protective against chemicals and metals.

I'm confused. Just seems common sense that low concentrations wouldn't do
the trick. Kind of like only taking an antibiotic until you feel better and
not finishing the bottle. And higher doses are sure to cause damage, like
taking all the antibiotic in several days when it is suppose to last 10.
Then she tried it for 6 months? My understanding is it is a one shot
treatment that one would do in spring & fall, or if no problems perhaps
fall only.... or not at all.

And perhaps, if she purchased it off e-bay, it wasn't prazi/droncit at all?
(I don't have a lot of faith in e-bay, too many scams.) And droncit is used
on cats & dogs, so if she was trying to save money by purchasing the
dog/cat version, perhaps the non-active ingredients were a problem for the
fish? Or the chemical make up was such that it didn't dissolve as well in
the water?

The link above discusses monogeneans and that "Morbidity and mortality epidemics in
cultured fish caused by excessive parasite loads are associated with crowding,
inadequate sanitation and deterioration of water quality. Although monogeneans are
commonly found on wild fish, they are rarely a direct cause of disease or death in
free-ranging populations."

Yea, I got that feeling also, just info on flukes. Nothing mentioned on
prazi.

PP is very safe when stock solutions are used and the reason it is recommended by
Floyd et al is that it is also effective against columnaris which is likely to be
present with a monogenean outbreak. OTOH, the peroxide dip effectively kills both
dacs and gyros and is incredibly cheap and safe for fish and humans.

so now I guess it is up to everyone to pick their poison. Ingrid

I think you said it all with that last statement. Imho, if one is a
biochemist/vet one could play around, buy cheap and do the deed without the
directions. Me, I'll pay the extra to have those written directions. Small
ponds aren't that expensive to treat with one shot prazi.

PP, lots of info on the web for using this product with fish, course it can
fry the filter and you have to treat more often. It will do more than
prazi, and decrease the mulm on the bottom at the same time. Unfortunately
that mulm also affects the concentration/treatment. Then there is that
question based on color, is it gone and can I add another dose? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

she did a scientific experiment trying various concentrations with obvious limits on
the methodology. She of course didnt have a million dollar grant, so she tried these
various concentrations out on the big honker fancy GF she imported from China.
Understandably she was not looking for LD50 on her $100 fish.
She only treated fish that actually had the dacs or gyros, so in a batch there might
only be one or so tanks of fish. Over the course of 6 months AS THE INFECTED FISH
ARRIVED she tried various concentrations in the tanks of infected fish. So lets say
the first tank of fish she tried the "recommended" dose and the gills were fried. The
next infected tank to come along she tried a lower dose, etc. etc. When the initial
dose didnt work against the flukes, she retreated and there was no combination of
concentration and treatment repeat that didnt rip up the gills. Until she developed
the peroxide dip she used PP to treat for gyros, altho PP didnt work very well for
dacs. That was the impetus to work out the peroxide dip.
Jo Ann had a "hospital" and lab room with tanks for sick fish, her scope, her plates
and other chems needed to test for various diseases. She also kept a log of
treatments. Given that she had 50+ tanks going at once (which are numbered) she kept
track of what she gave which tank.

Jo Ann always got her meds and chemicals directly from drug or science supply houses.
She was a certified clinical diagnostician for fresh water fish disease, specifically
GF.

Jo Ann has been importing fancy GF from China since 1976. At the beginning they
would treat the GF with all kinds of caustic chemicals to get rid of all the cooties
were on the fish dragged out of the ponds. The fish arrived so stressed out after
48-60 hours in transit that they were dying AND they had cooties of various kinds on
them. She finally told Jackie to quit treating the fish she would do it on her end.
So the fish arrived with everything you can imagine and a LOT of things nobody else
has seen. Jo Ann found the OTC fish meds (at that time) were useless and scoured the
scientific books on fish, Noga and STofskoft etc for treatments, she even went to the
guy runs the Mobile aquarium for help. After 10 years of too many fish dying the
Mobile guy recommended she take course work with Ruth Floyd which Jo Ann did. She
also took a bacteriology course and learned to make all the media needed to do
isolation and identification of bacteria. Believe me I understand the amount of work
cause I taught medical microbiology at a little 2 year U and had to make all that
damn media "by hand", no quickie ident kits.

But identification is not treatment, and treatment in mammal, in humans more often
than not is useless in fish. Jo Ann hammered away at techniques and treatments for
the parasites and bacteria of GF on her own. At that time she was importing 5-10K
worth of fish 4-5 times a year. Nobody importing GF had quarantine periods like Jo
Ann did, a minimum month. Most of them would open the bags of the GF, dump them
into the water and sell em that day before they would "go down" from the stress of
the trip and recurrence of parasites and to hell with the customer with dying fish.
By the time Jo Ann did her videos that went out to customers those fish were over the
stress and cooties they came in with and could safely be shipped all over the US.

And Jo Ann also was working out the "essentials" for keeping her goldfish in varying
water and varying conditions all over the US. Lake water is a whole lot different
than well water than water with high salt, high pH, low pH, etc. People paid a LOT
for her fish and she made did NOT want those fish dying in people's tanks. Her
livelihood depended on repeat customers who were successful in keeping the fish
alive.

Treating every other day with PP. After 12 hours drop in some peroxide and it
neutralizes the PP. Wait a day, treat again. But overall it is better to have a 100
gallon stock tank for treatment rather than treating a whole pond. BETTER YET,
(which I KNOW you know, Jan) is keep the pond clean and never introduce a new fish
that hasnt been properly quarantined. As many know, I now recommend a "closed pond"
and will introduce no new koi. Ingrid

On Sun, 4 May 2008 13:13:47 EDT, ~ jan wrote:
I'm confused. Just seems common sense that low concentrations wouldn't do
the trick.
Then she tried it for 6 months?
And perhaps, if she purchased it off e-bay,

PP, lots of info on the web for using this product with fish, course it can
fry the filter and you have to treat more often. It will do more than
prazi, and decrease the mulm on the bottom at the same time. Unfortunately
that mulm also affects the concentration/treatment. Then there is that
question based on color, is it gone and can I add another dose? ~ jan