I have 9 goldfish living in a 300 gallon stock tank till my permanent
pond can be built. They've been doing fine there since December. Had
a normal nitrogen cycle at first, not too bad, then water chemistry
consistently checked out great. In July, several fish died. Necropsy
showed aeromonas hydrophilia. Consulted fish specialist, who had me
get salt concentration to 0.3% and give the fish 5 hour baths in
Baytril (outside the tank). This was after trying medicated food,
which the fish wouldn't eat.

To make a long story short, the plants died, the uneaten medicated
food fouled the water, the antibiotics killed the biofilter, and the
ammonia level went through the roof. We had nowhere to keep the fish
during the emergency except for a few hours in the 30 gallon container
they had their "baths" in. So we did several 100% water changes and
cleaned everything and started over. Followed up with daily or every
other day partial water changes because the ammonia levels kept
creeping up. A week or two later, there's no end in sight. Lately
we're doing 50% water changes daily. I'm trying to keep the pH in the
range of 6.8-7. Using Ammo-lock as needed. Dechlorinating the water.
Keeping it well aerated. Keeping the salt at around 0.1%. Checking
the chemistry several times a day. Adding good bacteria. Putting
zeolite in filter and skimmer. Recharging the zeolite periodically.
Water temp stays in the range of 68-72 degrees.

The ammonia level is creeping higher and higher despite all this.
Today it was around 5 ppm *after* the water change. Looks like I'm
gonna hafta do another major water change, maybe 75% or more.

So far, there is *no sign* of biofilter coming back. Not even a hint
of nitrites.

I don't think the fish are overcrowded. They range in size from, say,
2 inches to 6 inches. Before all this happened, there were 17
goldfish in there, and the water chemistry was perfect.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

Joan, Desperate to Save My Fish

If you know any other pond keepers, or aquarists, see if you can borrow one
of their filter pads to rinse out in your pond. Whatever killed the filter,
should have been removed, dilluted, or otherwise made innocuous, but getting
the new filter started again seems to need some help. You might do better
with Amquel, Prime, Amquel Plus, ChloAm-X or Ultimate than Ammolock. They
do a good job of making the ammonia non-toxic, but still available to the
filter. If the ammonia has been converted to ammonium with one of the
above, the pH can safely be raised. The filter really needs the KH
carbonates to work, and will cycle faster with high KH. The KH can be
raised with baking soda.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"JGW" wrote in message
...
I have 9 goldfish living in a 300 gallon stock tank till my permanent
pond can be built. They've been doing fine there since December. Had
a normal nitrogen cycle at first, not too bad, then water chemistry
consistently checked out great. In July, several fish died. Necropsy
showed aeromonas hydrophilia. Consulted fish specialist, who had me
get salt concentration to 0.3% and give the fish 5 hour baths in
Baytril (outside the tank). This was after trying medicated food,
which the fish wouldn't eat.

To make a long story short, the plants died, the uneaten medicated
food fouled the water, the antibiotics killed the biofilter, and the
ammonia level went through the roof. We had nowhere to keep the fish
during the emergency except for a few hours in the 30 gallon container
they had their "baths" in. So we did several 100% water changes and
cleaned everything and started over. Followed up with daily or every
other day partial water changes because the ammonia levels kept
creeping up. A week or two later, there's no end in sight. Lately
we're doing 50% water changes daily. I'm trying to keep the pH in the
range of 6.8-7. Using Ammo-lock as needed. Dechlorinating the water.
Keeping it well aerated. Keeping the salt at around 0.1%. Checking
the chemistry several times a day. Adding good bacteria. Putting
zeolite in filter and skimmer. Recharging the zeolite periodically.
Water temp stays in the range of 68-72 degrees.

The ammonia level is creeping higher and higher despite all this.
Today it was around 5 ppm *after* the water change. Looks like I'm
gonna hafta do another major water change, maybe 75% or more.

So far, there is *no sign* of biofilter coming back. Not even a hint
of nitrites.

I don't think the fish are overcrowded. They range in size from, say,
2 inches to 6 inches. Before all this happened, there were 17
goldfish in there, and the water chemistry was perfect.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

Joan, Desperate to Save My Fish

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:07:37 -0700, JGW wrote:

range of 6.8-7. Using Ammo-lock as needed.

What are you testing ammonia with? A 1 bottle test kit or 2 bottle
salicylate based ammonia test? If only 1 bottle, that is why you're showing
ammonia, if 2 bottle, and you're still getting ammonia readings, add more
Ammo-lock, or the other brands RTB mentioned.

Before all this happened, there were 17
goldfish in there, and the water chemistry was perfect.

17 goldfish in approximately 275 gallons (assuming you didn't fill to the
rim?) I'd say they were over crowded. Even in the best conditions it is
recommended to give goldfish 20 gallons/fish. More if you want them to grow
well.

Aeromonas hydrophilia is a 2ndary infection, and the stress of over
crowding can weaken the immune system. Did the fish specialist do a scrape
and scope to see if any parasites were involved? The salt, if added over
several days to get to 0.3% shouldn't have killed the filter, nor should
have the antibiotic food.

Koizyme works really well on lowing the Aeromonas and Pseudomonas bacteria
in the water column, but it is important that the fish have a good immune
system to also fight those buggers off. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Good idea about borrowing a filter pad. Thanks.

Didn't know that the filter needs good KH. I've been putting some
into the system, just verrrry cautiously. Maybe I'll get a little
braver.

Ammolock doesn't make the ammonia available to the filter? Shoot, the
manufacturer advertises that it does. It's hard to get stuff around
here; I live in the boonies, but there's always mail order.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts/suggestions.

Joan

If you know any other pond keepers, or aquarists, see if you can borrow one
of their filter pads to rinse out in your pond. Whatever killed the filter,
should have been removed, dilluted, or otherwise made innocuous, but getting
the new filter started again seems to need some help. You might do better
with Amquel, Prime, Amquel Plus, ChloAm-X or Ultimate than Ammolock. They
do a good job of making the ammonia non-toxic, but still available to the
filter. If the ammonia has been converted to ammonium with one of the
above, the pH can safely be raised. The filter really needs the KH
carbonates to work, and will cycle faster with high KH. The KH can be
raised with baking soda.

What are you testing ammonia with? A 1 bottle test kit or 2 bottle
salicylate based ammonia test? If only 1 bottle, that is why you're showing
ammonia, if 2 bottle, and you're still getting ammonia readings, add more
Ammo-lock, or the other brands RTB mentioned.

Two bottle. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. The literature says the test
will still show positive even when the ammonia is inactivated. So
when I treat again, I figure I have to treat for the difference
between the last reading and the current reading.

Before all this happened, there were 17
goldfish in there, and the water chemistry was perfect.

17 goldfish in approximately 275 gallons (assuming you didn't fill to the
rim?) I'd say they were over crowded. Even in the best conditions it is
recommended to give goldfish 20 gallons/fish. More if you want them to grow
well.

You're probably right. We only put 12 in there last December, so I
don't know if we had spawning and rapid growth or whether we picked up
some fry or eggs in the plants we bought. Interestingly, several of
them were young koi, which we had never put in there in the first
place. We had only planned for the fish to be in there a little
while, but there have been problems with getting the pond built.

Aeromonas hydrophilia is a 2ndary infection, and the stress of over
crowding can weaken the immune system. Did the fish specialist do a scrape
and scope to see if any parasites were involved? The salt, if added over
several days to get to 0.3% shouldn't have killed the filter, nor should
have the antibiotic food.

The vet did rule out parasites. As for the primary cause, we had an
exterminator to the house a few days previously. It wasn't a windy
day, and he only sprayed the perimeter of the house, which is maybe 10
feet or more from the tank. But perhaps some got in there, weakened
the fish, and then they got sick. The timing worked out in a
suspicious wat, and the vet thinks that is what happened.

As for the biofilter crash, we think it's a number of things, not the
least of which is that I didn't remove the plants soon enough after we
increased the salt level, and I think there was massive cell death of
the plants under the water, even though the tops still looked green.

Koizyme works really well on lowing the Aeromonas and Pseudomonas bacteria
in the water column, but it is important that the fish have a good immune
system to also fight those buggers off. ~ jan

The problem was the fish wouldn't eat it. I think they were too sick.
And yes, probably too weakened even before they got sick. :-(

Joan

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:42:05 -0700, JGW wrote:

Two bottle. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. The literature says the test
will still show positive even when the ammonia is inactivated.

Not according to what I've been taught and have personally experienced.
I've tested, found ammonia, treated with Chloram-X, retested after a few
hours, and no ammonia. The ammonia in the converted form is still available
to the filter to complete its cycle.

So
when I treat again, I figure I have to treat for the difference
between the last reading and the current reading.

If you're showing ammonia, you need to treat for whatever ppm the test is
showing. When was your test kit manufactured? There is a Lot number, on
each bottle, top of front label. The last 2 numbers are the month & year.

The vet did rule out parasites. As for the primary cause, we had an
exterminator to the house a few days previously. It wasn't a windy
day, and he only sprayed the perimeter of the house, which is maybe 10
feet or more from the tank. But perhaps some got in there, weakened
the fish, and then they got sick. The timing worked out in a
suspicious wat, and the vet thinks that is what happened.

That could have killed your filter also. What was he spraying for? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~