~ janj wrote:
I still don't see how someone can be held responsible for frogs...OK
you've built a pond that attracts them but they are still out there
somewhere...maybe if you didn't have a pond they'd find their way into a
puddle in a neighbour's garden...or is it a "not in my back yard"
mentality. I just don't see how any pond keeper could be deemed
inconsiderate because a wild animal makes a noise - can you be held
responsible if a fox (or any wild dog) makes a noise because maybe you
keep chickens? Or that a bird of prey makes a horrendous noise because
they live in your area because there is other wild-life - mice, rats
etc. (OMG just remembered they will be at it again in a few weeks)...

Actually having a frog eating bugs must be a plus for any neighbourhood...

A dog barking is different...but how do you stop your pet cat fighting?
That keeps people awake as well...in fact the list is endless...but IMO
in terms of anti-social behaviour frogs just don't get on the list....
Gill


And therein, why the CA office thought it was hilarious. I would have been
happier, had the CA called me, laughter in the background, and mentioned
there had been a complaint. I still would have reduced the numbers. And
speaking of wild animals, I mentioned Maypies (related to crows) and how
noisy they can be in the neighborhood.

Personally it all comes down to "control" and you've got it, the case of
"not in my backyard where I can go harass it away" mentality. By fall we
have big crickets that I know sing every bit as loud as the frogs, under
everyone's window. Course, looking at the house across the street... they
have a BIG barked (non)flower bed, with no plants. That probably helps keep
the crickets to a minimum. ;-) ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

But why should you as a pond keeper be in charge of controlling
wildlife??? Sorry, just don't get it...most wildlife in our communities
are under threat and we, at least in the UK, are encouraged to do
everything to keep environments that will encourage our natural
inhabitants.....to hell with the noise....

The birds I was referring to are Red Kites that have been reintroduced.
They are thriving now in this area but still an endangered species...and
more noisy than you could ever believe....I can't leave my pet rabbit
and guinea pig out even in daytime for fear that these birds will take
them....but I'm not about to sue the conservationists or anyone that is
trying to get these beautiful (even if a little scary) birds native
again....and the noise when mating is unbelievable...with all the
windows shut (and we also have double glazing) the whole house sounds as
if it is surrounded by heavy breathers (in fact the first time I heard
it a few years ago it freaked me - it was like some perv had a megaphone
outside my house - lol)

If you live outside of a heavy built up area, then the sounds of nature
are part of the experience....

Gill

Koi-Lo wrote:

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...

Koi-Lo wrote:

BTW not all of us on this NG are city dwellers. Even out here in the
country most of us do have at least one neighbor in earshot of our
ponds.

=====================


Those of us in the UK know the pain of having frog CDs - there was/is
a certain "Crazy Frog" that charted...yuk


I was talking about the green slippery ones. :-)

I still don't see how someone can be held responsible for frogs...OK
you've built a pond that attracts them but they are still out there
somewhere...maybe if you didn't have a pond they'd find their way into
a puddle in a neighbour's garden...or is it a "not in my back yard"
mentality.


It may partly be that - for sure. But what can someone do if the frogs
in your pond do indeed keep them awake night after night? Those who
must get up in the morning to go to a job can't sleep during the day
when the frogs are quiet. Here in the USA you would cited for "creating
a nuisance" just like if you had a backyard full of barking dogs or were
feeding 100 stray cats.

I just don't see how any pond keeper could be deemed

inconsiderate because a wild animal makes a noise - can you be held
responsible if a fox (or any wild dog) makes a noise because maybe you
keep chickens?


If they're creating problems for a neighbor - YES - in many areas. But
the USA is big and laws vary state by state and city by city.

Or that a bird of prey makes a horrendous noise because

they live in your area because there is other wild-life - mice, rats
etc. (OMG just remembered they will be at it again in a few weeks)...


If the birds of prey are after your chickens or pigeons - you can be
held responsible for "creating a nuisance." Again Gill, it depends on
where you live.

Actually having a frog eating bugs must be a plus for any
neighbourhood...


I think most people would rather spray with toxic poisons than be kept
awake by frogs. :-(

A dog barking is different...but how do you stop your pet cat fighting?


I hate to say this but usually a neighbor who is being kept awake by
fighting cats buys a 22........ bye bye cats. People here who value
their cats neuter them and keep them indoors.

That keeps people awake as well...in fact the list is endless...but
IMO in terms of anti-social behaviour frogs just don't get on the
list....


I agree... as long as they're not under my own bedroom window. ;-)
Fortunately my ponds are in front of the house and behind the house,
none are near by bedroom. My house isn't really close enough to the
other homes to have anyone complain about the frogs.


But you still cannot say that the pond owner is responsible....as I said
if they aren't in your pond they will still be in the neighbourhood...

Yep, spraying with poison or shooting cats and other wildlife is an
option but hardly a responsible one....you and I have had various
discussions about the quality of lifestock and regulations regarding the
sale of fish etc. Obviously the attitude goes further than this if
shooting a cat, poisoning, or suing anyone who creates a natural
environment for native species is the norm then you guys have a lot of
work to do....I know you won't take this personally as I know your
opinions on all of this...we've talked too much....but you guys in the
US need to get real on this....native species need to be
protected...even if they do irritate....if you choose to live in the
country then you accept the wildlife....

Gill

But what can someone do if the frogs in your pond do indeed keep them awake
night after night?

Earplugs?

Who do they sue when the cidadas are doing their thing?

I still find this oh so terribly amusing. I moved out of the city
because it's quiet and dark up where I an. I mean REAL quiet. If
I turn off all the electroenic gizmos you can hear a pin drop
half a mile away and a doh barking 10 miles away.

I guess I never thought of the sounds of woves, coyotes, racoons,
birgs bugs and frogs as an annoyance. But the sounds of the city -
where it's never quiet? Like I said I moved to get away from that
noise.



--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 23:30:14 +0000 (UTC), (Richard
Sexton) wrote:

But what can someone do if the frogs in your pond do indeed keep them awake
night after night?

Earplugs?

Who do they sue when the cidadas are doing their thing?

I still find this oh so terribly amusing. I moved out of the city
because it's quiet and dark up where I an. I mean REAL quiet. If
I turn off all the electroenic gizmos you can hear a pin drop
half a mile away and a doh barking 10 miles away.

I guess I never thought of the sounds of woves, coyotes, racoons,
birgs bugs and frogs as an annoyance. But the sounds of the city -
where it's never quiet? Like I said I moved to get away from that
noise.

You wouldn't like where I live. No neighbors to speak of, but lots and
lots of frogs and other critters that make noise. For sure, it's a
different kind of noise than you find in a city, but quiet, it's not.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Stings like a butterfly, floats like a bee

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
But why should you as a pond keeper be in charge of controlling
wildlife???

Because if your pond wasn't there, there would be no wildlife problem for
the neighbors to complain about. That's how the city or town fathers see
it. Sometimes people fill in farm ponds near homes to avoid the noise of
wildlife and mosquitoes. That's the way people are here. Few have any real
concern for the environment.

Sorry, just don't get it...most wildlife in our communities
are under threat and we, at least in the UK, are encouraged to do
everything to keep environments that will encourage our natural
inhabitants.....to hell with the noise....

When you put a pond in not all cities see them as natural habitats. :-(
And in many areas here they must be fenced to keep children from falling in
and drowning.

The birds I was referring to are Red Kites that have been reintroduced.
They are thriving now in this area but still an endangered species...and
more noisy than you could ever believe....I can't leave my pet rabbit and
guinea pig out even in daytime for fear that these birds will take
them....but I'm not about to sue the conservationists or anyone that is
trying to get these beautiful (even if a little scary) birds native
again....and the noise when mating is unbelievable...with all the windows
shut (and we also have double glazing) the whole house sounds as if it is
surrounded by heavy breathers (in fact the first time I heard it a few
years ago it freaked me - it was like some perv had a megaphone outside my
house - lol)

ROFLMAO!!!! :-D We have sparrow hawks and red-tailed hawks here.

If you live outside of a heavy built up area, then the sounds of nature
are part of the experience....

Yep, that's how I see it.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds*
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Koi-Lo wrote:
I agree... as long as they're not under my own bedroom window. ;-)
Fortunately my ponds are in front of the house and behind the house, none
are near by bedroom. My house isn't really close enough to the other
homes to have anyone complain about the frogs.
==================
But you still cannot say that the pond owner is responsible....as I said
if they aren't in your pond they will still be in the neighbourhood...

Not necessarily. Until we put the ponds in all I ever heard here were the
spring-peepers in the stock pond on an adjoining farm. That lasted only a
week maybe. That pond isn't close enough to make the peepers a night time
problem. But once we put in these two ponds we suddenly had several
different frogs croaking away from mid spring into the summer. So I think
that may depend on where you live. Breeding frogs need water and if there
is no water you wont have croakers at night.

Yep, spraying with poison or shooting cats and other wildlife is an option
but hardly a responsible one....

I agree! It's disgusting but that's what people do. In one town someone
was poisoning dogs with hot-dogs. Everyone feared a child would eat a piece
and sicken or die. I have a Have-A-Heart trap for pest animals.

you and I have had various
discussions about the quality of lifestock and regulations regarding the
sale of fish etc. Obviously the attitude goes further than this if
shooting a cat, poisoning, or suing anyone who creates a natural
environment for native species is the norm then you guys have a lot of
work to do....

Getting anything changed here is a bear. People just give up and go with
the flow.......

I know you won't take this personally as I know your
opinions on all of this...we've talked too much....but you guys in the US
need to get real on this....native species need to be protected...even if
they do irritate....if you choose to live in the country then you accept
the wildlife....

BINGO!!! Now if someone would only tell the city people who move out here
and start complaining about frogs, the smell of cow manure, crowing roosters
that this is all part of country life - they may decide to stay in town.
If they don't like these natural sounds and smells they don't belong out
here.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds.*
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
But what can someone do if the frogs in your pond do indeed keep them
awake
night after night?

Earplugs?

I doubt they'd want to do that plus keep their windows shut in nice weather.
Hey, I'm not the one complaining. I moved the barrel off my porch. ;-)

Who do they sue when the cidadas are doing their thing?

Here in TN I can attest to the fact that the frogs in my ponds are a lot
noisier than the cicadas and night insects.

I still find this oh so terribly amusing. I moved out of the city
because it's quiet and dark up where I an. I mean REAL quiet. If
I turn off all the electroenic gizmos you can hear a pin drop
half a mile away and a doh barking 10 miles away.

Here too. I'm 6 miles from town but this area is building up fast. We're
near a beautiful lake and the land is extremely desirable at this time. We
can see deer and other wildlife right from our back door.

I guess I never thought of the sounds of woves, coyotes, racoons,
birgs bugs and frogs as an annoyance. But the sounds of the city -
where it's never quiet? Like I said I moved to get away from that
noise.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
You wouldn't like where I live. No neighbors to speak of, but lots and
lots of frogs and other critters that make noise. For sure, it's a
different kind of noise than you find in a city, but quiet, it's not.
============================
It's quiet here in the winter. All I may hear is a dog barking or rooster
crowing off in the distance. From spring to fall it gets noisy with an
assortment of insects, crickets, birds and the frogs. The bird song and
frogs peter out summer. From late summer to frost it's mainly insects and
crickets - right up to the first killing frost.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds.*
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

But why should you as a pond keeper be in charge of controlling
wildlife??? Gil

Control, as in, if my dog is barking it doesn't bother me, because I can at
any time go out and shut it up. Whereas, the neighbor doesn't have this
control, therefore the dog is far more annoying to them. That's what I
meant about having control.

I don't have a dog that barks, btw, just frogs. ) ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

....but you guys in the US.....

Please don't generalize. I'm sure there are unenlightened people in the UK
who have done in a protected species. ~ jan

need to get real on this....native species need to be
protected...even if they do irritate....if you choose to live in the
country then you accept the wildlife....

Gill

~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
have to be considerate of our neighbors. If the frogs keep them awake
what
are they supposed to do - go rent a Motel room to get some sleep? ;-)

First they came for the frongs and I didn't do anything.

Then they came for the hummingbirds and I didn't do anything.

Then they came for the moths and I didn't do anything...

Quick, somebody name mother nature in a lawsuit. That bitch
is just a disturbing influence.

LOL!

They'll not take my Mockingbirds! I'll fight
to the death!

The rat snakes ... well ... Ok, they can stay
as long as I can figure out a way to keep them
away from my Barn Swallow nests.

Gail

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 22:02:18 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

It's quiet here in the winter. All I may hear is a dog barking or rooster
crowing off in the distance. From spring to fall it gets noisy with an
assortment of insects, crickets, birds and the frogs. The bird song and
frogs peter out summer. From late summer to frost it's mainly insects and
crickets - right up to the first killing frost.

It just doesn't get that cold here. The mosquitoes and other bugs get
pretty thinned out by the first frost, which often occurs in December but
has been as late as January. It's louder in spring and summer, but other
critters pretty much make noise year round in this area. Frogs pretty much
are here all year, and birds come here in the winter just like other folks
from up north. It seems quieter out here than in the city to me, but I'd
imagine it has more with me liking nature sounds than city sounds. The
actual noise level probably isn't a whole lot less.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Stings like a butterfly, floats like a bee

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 22:02:18 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

It's quiet here in the winter. All I may hear is a dog barking or rooster
crowing off in the distance. From spring to fall it gets noisy with an
assortment of insects, crickets, birds and the frogs. The bird song and
frogs peter out summer. From late summer to frost it's mainly insects and
crickets - right up to the first killing frost.
===========
It just doesn't get that cold here. The mosquitoes and other bugs get
pretty thinned out by the first frost, which often occurs in December but
has been as late as January.

Oh, lucky you! :-) Our winters are not that bad here in TN either but we
do get some real cold snaps. The temps can get down into the teens at
night. Our first frost usually occurs my mid to late October.

It's louder in spring and summer, but other
critters pretty much make noise year round in this area. Frogs pretty
much
are here all year, and birds come here in the winter just like other folks
from up north.

We have a lot of birds here as well, and several feeders for them - but
they're pretty quiet until April and May when the breeding season starts.
The closer to the lake you get the more birdsong and insects you hear. I'm
surrounded by nature. :-))

It seems quieter out here than in the city to me, but I'd
imagine it has more with me liking nature sounds than city sounds. The
actual noise level probably isn't a whole lot less.

I lived in NYC which can get pretty darn noisy with Jets, sirens, Fire
Engines, back-firing cars and what have you - but when you live there in
becomes white-noise and you don't really hear it unless it's right outside
your door.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds.*
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

http://tinyurl.com/99azt
http://tinyurl.com/87ow4
http://tinyurl.com/d6t5m
http://tinyurl.com/aheek
http://tinyurl.com/ck97r
http://tinyurl.com/cm3dp
http://tinyurl.com/8bscg
http://tinyurl.com/7epdg
http://tinyurl.com/bya3z

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o
~ janj wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:24:33 +0000 (UTC), (Richard Sexton) wrote:

They can claim her "unnatural" pond is creating a nuisance. It's little
different than having a neighbor with a barking dog.

I do like some of the ways you think. The neighbors that I assume
complained, have a dog... that barks.

Chirping frogs in the spring, that eat bugs are a nuisence, but cars,
motorbikes and what have you that make noise, consume expensive fossil
fuels we buy for a lot of money from the mideast, that also pollutes
like mad (to the detriment of aforementioned frogs ironically) are ok?

I used all that in my letter, about them eating MOSQUITOS, plus other bugs.

Tell them your plan is to buy a big SUV and to drive it a lot so
the emissions will eventually kill them off. Then alert the green people,
buy a local politoco a TV and let nature and politics take its
course. If I can refresh your memory, you saw an endangered frog
in your pond.

If I had all the money in the world, I might just let a lawyer take that
route, but I don't.s As far as the SUV, I drive a Prius. The neighbors
with the barking dog? A big honkin' Peepup truck. Which wakes my son when
they start it up in the AM. Go figure.

In my case, it isn't that my frogs kept these folks awake. Their bedroom is
on the opposite side of their house. We got the letter soon after they got
a big screen TV in the living room and the weather got nice enough to have
windows open. I think it affected their TV listening. And no these aren't
older homes, with thin windows, in fact most of their windows were upgraded
prior to moving in. So I assume, like ours, shut the window and the sound
is gone.

Otoh, the people behind me, who's bedroom practically overlooks the pond,
didn't complain. When I asked them about it, she did say that her and
another neighbor (next to the pond) were discussing how loud the frogs were
that year. Then she volunteered to call me about them, not to get rid of
them, just to decrease the #s. Unfortunately, she didn't call before I got
the CA letter.... and maybe that is just as well, since it probably took
some time for the letter to get put into action. If I'd lowered the volume
and then got the letter, I might have thought I had to remove all of them.

The most interesting thing, since I didn't know for sure who had contacted
the CA. I put out 16 letters to surrounding houses. I got back 12 positive
responses. I counted my two "lower the #s" neighbors as negative, so that
left only 2 others, one of which is kitty corner to me, sound blocked by my
house and their bedrooms are in the back, and no windows open to the front,
and I think they would talk to me first. That kind of whittled it down who
wrote the letter. ;-)

Course I love K30's idea. Write a letter apologizing about the frogs, that
2 big snakes have been turned loose to take care of the problem. Please
keep all pets and small children inside until you no longer hear frogs in
the evenings. This could take a couple weeks. Thank you, ~ jan

--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

~ janj wrote:

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:49:55 -0400, Derek Broughton
wrote:

Have you ever heard an American Toad trilling? It goes for maybe 5
seconds. Now, raise that pitch an octave, and maintain it for 30-60
seconds at a
time. It's loud, and potentially annoying. If you get half a dozen of
them outside your window it could drive you crazy.

Naaa, by that time you've got white noise, easy to sleep to. What wakes
you up is when they all stop at once, dead silence.

"It's quiet out there. Too quiet..." :-)

However, Jan's neighbors are apparently already crazy :-)

????? I hope you're mean crazy in that they did not talk to or write me a
note, and not crazy because they live near me? ~ jan

No, just crazy that they want to object to the sounds of nature. I say, if
you can't stand nature, move to the city.
--
derek