In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:
Richard Sexton wrote:

I had a not very heavily populated 5000 gallon pond.
My deep lilies would, every year, develop sufficient foliage to lift the
tubers a foot or two off the bottom of the pond. We're talking about 18"
or longer tubers, with 100sq.ft. of pads, and dozens of blooms. If I
could have made them grow better with "food" I'd have to have been nuts to
do it!

Ok, so you think you're nuts, but the point still stands. With proper
feeding they'll do *better*.

Why would you want better? As I said to Ingrid - it's useful if you're
raising them to sell, but hobbyists just want to get the maximum number of
blooms, sufficient surface coverage and a minimum of removing and dividing.
Adding nutrients to a fish pond is not generally desirable.

I'm not tellig you what you want or what is desirable, I'm just
telling you how things work since you had the mistaken belief
that "plants get all they need from fish waste", that's all.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton wrote:

I'm not tellig you what you want or what is desirable, I'm just
telling you how things work since you had the mistaken belief
that "plants get all they need from fish waste", that's all.

There's nothing mistaken about it. My _lilies_ get more than sufficient
nutrients when kept bare root (I never once suggested _all_ plants, and in
fact have had trouble with Hyacinths specifically _because_ they can't get
everything they need in my pond, without additives). Please don't use
quotes when you're not quoting.
--
derek

In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:
Richard Sexton wrote:

I'm not tellig you what you want or what is desirable, I'm just
telling you how things work since you had the mistaken belief
that "plants get all they need from fish waste", that's all.

There's nothing mistaken about it. My _lilies_ get more than sufficient
nutrients when kept bare root (I never once suggested _all_ plants, and in
fact have had trouble with Hyacinths specifically _because_ they can't get
everything they need in my pond, without additives). Please don't use
quotes when you're not quoting.

I was quoting Innes' 1904 work. It's just coincidnece it's the same
as what you said. If you believe your plants are geting 100% of what
they need go read _The Optimum Aquarium_ by Horst and Kipper, they
explain the difference between the water where plants grow and tapwater
and water used to cuylrute fished and plants, what the deficiences arem
how they get used up and how to replenish them.

I understand if you're doing ok you can't imagine you're doing anything
wrong and if you're happy with yout plant growth, great. But the idea
"plants get all th enutrients they need from fish" is true you are
quite mistaken.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...

I understand if you're doing ok you can't imagine you're doing anything
wrong and if you're happy with yout plant growth, great. But the idea
"plants get all th enutrients they need from fish" is true you are
quite mistaken.
====================
He may have some unusual conditions in his pond. I can't even get water
lilies to grow and bloom in a fine gravel. I have to use soil and
fertilizer spikes if I want nice large leaves and lots of blooms. Other
pond plants do well enough in fine gravel alone.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Richard Sexton wrote:

I understand if you're doing ok you can't imagine you're doing anything
wrong and if you're happy with yout plant growth, great. But the idea
"plants get all th enutrients they need from fish" is true you are
quite mistaken.

Except I _still_ didn't say that, and even though I asked nicely, you're
still using quotes to have me saying something I neither said nor believed.

I said _my_ lilies got all the nutrients they needed from my pond. It may
only be because my water supply had all the traces they needed, too. I
also said my water hyacinth did _not_ get all the nutrients they needed
from my pond.

What I _will_ say as a blanket statement is that, in a fish pond, lilies can
get all the nitrogen they need from fish. I'm well aware that plants need
more than nitrogen. If your plants don't do well enough bare-root, then
the answer is still not to plant in compost. Plant lilies in clay - then
you can use fertilizer spikes without most of the nutrients migrating into
the water.
--
derek

In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:
I said _my_ lilies got all the nutrients they needed from my pond. It may
only be because my water supply had all the traces they needed, too. I
also said my water hyacinth did _not_ get all the nutrients they needed
from my pond.

What I _will_ say as a blanket statement is that, in a fish pond, lilies can
get all the nitrogen they need from fish. I'm well aware that plants need
more than nitrogen. If your plants don't do well enough bare-root, then
the answer is still not to plant in compost. Plant lilies in clay - then
you can use fertilizer spikes without most of the nutrients migrating into
the water.

Your plants may grow just swell, but that's not the same as "they
get everything they neeed". You can prove this by fertilizing them
and observing more and more vigorous growth. Until then you're just
guessing, not stating objective fact.

Your opinion is just that and should not be passed off as factually
correct.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton wrote:

Your plants may grow just swell, but that's not the same as "they
get everything they neeed". You can prove this by fertilizing them
and observing more and more vigorous growth. Until then you're just
guessing, not stating objective fact.

How is "more vigorous growth" an indicator of anything? Gardeners
frequently don't _want_ vegetative growth. Especially with lilies: we want
blooms. Considering I've had dozens of blooms off a single lily _at one
time_ I think it's pretty safe to say I've been doing it right.

Your opinion is just that and should not be passed off as factually
correct.

My opinion is that years of water gardening experience has proven that
bare-root planting of some species works. In many cases, for many reasons,
better than alternatives. Your _opinion_ would seem to be that if you're
not getting the absolute maximum growth out of your plants, you're doing
something wrong.

Your _opinion_ is only "factually correct" under limited conditions - like
no fish in the pond, and you'd rather see lily pads than flowers. Most
water gardeners consider it a failure when they get lots of growth and few
blooms. A failure, I might add, that is commonly caused not by
fertilization or lack of it, but by getting dirt on the crown - which can't
happen when you plant bare-root.

We all have different preferred ways of doing things, and there's plenty of
disagreement in this group, but there's no need to come in here and start
telling us you have all the right answers.
--
derek

In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:
Richard Sexton wrote:

Your plants may grow just swell, but that's not the same as "they
get everything they neeed". You can prove this by fertilizing them
and observing more and more vigorous growth. Until then you're just
guessing, not stating objective fact.

How is "more vigorous growth" an indicator of anything? Gardeners
frequently don't _want_ vegetative growth. Especially with lilies: we want
blooms.

Then maintain an optimal pjhosphate level. All fishfood contains
pjhosphate and fish will excrete that, but if it's not at an optimal
level you won't get optimal blooms.

better than alternatives. Your _opinion_ would seem to be that if you're
not getting the absolute maximum growth out of your plants, you're doing
something wrong.

That is to say if you're stunting your plants you're doing right?

The bigger the root the bigger the bloom.

Your _opinion_ is only "factually correct" under limited conditions - like
no fish in the pond, and you'd rather see lily pads than flowers.

I neevr said this. Ever.

disagreement in this group, but there's no need to come in here and start
telling us you have all the right answers.

Enjoy your Bonsai.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net