On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:36:41 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

That was one fish. You still haven't
replied why it's so dangerous for a koi with pox to be in a man made stock
pond but it's not dangerous for it to be a man made ornamental pond.

I raise my hand, even though you won't answer my questions straight up.

You keep your ponds netted so herons can't fly off with your fish, and than
accidentally drop them in a natural waterway. I assume the stock pond is
not netted, this is usually the case since it would be detrimental to the
stock to drink from it, and get caught in netting? Thus a heron could catch
and release right into a natural waterway. Not only has this happened,
we've had ponders locally come home to a strange, but dead fish in their
pond. Now if that isn't scary, I don't know what is.

Even if your koi, for a fact, proven with a culture only had carp pox, that
in and of itself IS contagious, low contagion, but still contagious.

You just jumped right on the bandwagon. ;-)

Guess I'm guilty of that also, check please, I ready to disembark. ~ jan

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:36:41 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

That was one fish. You still haven't
replied why it's so dangerous for a koi with pox to be in a man made stock
pond but it's not dangerous for it to be a man made ornamental pond.

I raise my hand, even though you won't answer my questions straight up.

You keep your ponds netted so herons can't fly off with your fish, and
than
accidentally drop them in a natural waterway.

No Heron is going to carry an adult koi several miles and drop in anywhere.
Also Jan, the tub that fish was in was not netted because she was too large
for a heron or kingfisher. Are you saying that anyone who has a fish with
pox must net their pond or holding tanks? The only things netted around
here are holding fish small enough for the large bullfrogs, turtles or
herons to take.

I assume the stock pond is
not netted, this is usually the case since it would be detrimental to the
stock to drink from it, and get caught in netting?

I also assume most ponds are not netted, and pox, not being fatal, is not an
uncommon infection. I have seen it on local pond tours and few of those
ponds were netted.

Thus a heron could catch
and release right into a natural waterway. Not only has this happened,
we've had ponders locally come home to a strange, but dead fish in their
pond. Now if that isn't scary, I don't know what is.

Of course it is. But I can't stop a snake or snapper from getting through a
net and carrying off a fish and dropping it somewhere either. No one can
guarantee that unless their pond is indoors. What do we do Jan... get rid of
all our fish? This was a huge adult female no heron could lift no less
carry several miles. I'm not far from a lake and there has never been a
report of anyone catching goldfish, koi or any other exotic introduced
species there in all the years I've lived here. No wait... one summer
someone hooked a pacu and thought it was a piranha.

Even if your koi, for a fact, proven with a culture only had carp pox,
that
in and of itself IS contagious, low contagion, but still contagious.

So? See above. Any heron that can carry off a koi as large as she was
would have to be twice the size of an eagle. There are no birds here that
large. There is no way anyone can guarantee any fish kept outside will not
be hauled off by some predator.

You just jumped right on the bandwagon. ;-)

Guess I'm guilty of that also, check please, I ready to disembark. ~ jan

Before jumping on the bandwagon perhaps a few questions asked would be
helpful instead of immediately going for the throat... something that never
happened on this group before.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:08:15 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

No Heron is going to carry an adult koi several miles and drop in anywhere.

Happened here. Got members of the club to prove it. Fish wasn't theirs,
that was dropped in their pond, 12-18" of dead koi.

Also Jan, the tub that fish was in was not netted because she was too large
for a heron or kingfisher.

Well just how large was she?

I also assume most ponds are not netted, and pox, not being fatal, is not an
uncommon infection. I have seen it on local pond tours and few of those
ponds were netted.

Right, but ornamental ponds are a tad less accessible then stock ponds in
the middle of fields.

Of course it is. But I can't stop a snake or snapper from getting through a
net and carrying off a fish and dropping it somewhere either.

Snakes & snappers don't do this, the eat on the spot.

There is no way anyone can guarantee any fish kept outside will not
be hauled off by some predator.

Stating obvious.... You never mentioned the size of the fish.

Before jumping on the bandwagon perhaps a few questions asked would be
helpful instead of immediately going for the throat... something that never
happened on this group before.

Now you're lashing out. I in no way went for your throat, if I did you
would be choking, heck I didn't even come close to any of your body parts.
My reply was civil, on topic and part of the discussion. It contained no
personal attack. Your combativeness just floors me. Proving once again
that one can't have a discussional disagreement with you without you seeing
it as a personal attack. s ~ jan

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:08:15 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

No Heron is going to carry an adult koi several miles and drop in
anywhere.

Happened here. Got members of the club to prove it. Fish wasn't theirs,
that was dropped in their pond, 12-18" of dead koi.

Well it looks like we'll all have to net our ponds. BTW the herons here are
the small ones about the size of a banty rooster.

Also Jan, the tub that fish was in was not netted because she was too
large
for a heron or kingfisher.

Well just how large was she?

Her body was excluding the tail was 18" or more. She outweighed the little
green Herons by several pounds.

I also assume most ponds are not netted, and pox, not being fatal, is not
an
uncommon infection. I have seen it on local pond tours and few of those
ponds were netted.

Right, but ornamental ponds are a tad less accessible then stock ponds in
the middle of fields.

That don't apply here since herons will sit right on your roof or garage
until you go in - then they're right on your pond rim fishing. They take
fish from ponds in towns. You may be talking about a different heron.

Of course it is. But I can't stop a snake or snapper from getting through
a
net and carrying off a fish and dropping it somewhere either.

Snakes & snappers don't do this, the eat on the spot.

So do the herons we have here. A few gulps and the fish is gone. In ever saw
one pick up a fish larger then itself and carry it off.

There is no way anyone can guarantee any fish kept outside will not
be hauled off by some predator.

Stating obvious.... You never mentioned the size of the fish.

And *no one bothered to ask* before going for my throat. So let me repeat
this for posterity. Before this koi was turned out in the farm pond the
whole top of her dorsal fin was amputated to remove the waxy growth
beforehand. I had permission to put fish in this pond from the landowner who
liked the idea (misquito control). I knew he couldn't keep fish in this
pond due to predators and this pond is right near a dwelling. I knew this
fish stood no chance but allowed nature to take it course. When I went back
with some goldfish culls I didn't see her so can only assume some raccoon
had a good dinner.

Before jumping on the bandwagon perhaps a few questions asked would be
helpful instead of immediately going for the throat... something that
never
happened on this group before.

Now you're lashing out.

Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and say
anything they want. They lash out and jump on everything I say. Everything
has to be explained down to the last minute detail. Why and *I* held to a
different standard? Why didn't you do this to the other poster to
recommended shooting and killing a protected bird, never mentioning it was
both illegal and immoral here in the USA? Why are there different standards
for different posters here?

I in no way went for your throat, if I did you
would be choking, heck I didn't even come close to any of your body parts.
My reply was civil, on topic and part of the discussion. It contained no
personal attack.

Then please ask for details before lecturing me on illegally "dumping
diseased" fish in waterways.

Your combativeness just floors me. Proving once again
that one can't have a discussional disagreement with you without you
seeing
it as a personal attack. s ~ jan

You're lecturing me on wildlife laws I'm well aware of without asking me for
more information *FLOORS* me - since you never did this to anyone else. Why
do it to me? This proves once again you hold me to a different standard
than you hold the other posters here - even when they recommend the illegal
killing of a protected species.

I don't want to hear it's legal to kill Herons in the UK because he didn't
tell the poster that - and YOU never said a word!!!! God help me if I
posted something like that.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:06:03 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

BTW the herons here are
the small ones about the size of a banty rooster.

Instead of being defensive, you could have mentioned this and the size of
the fish.

A Great Blue Heron, could fly away with an 18-24" fish, it has happened
here. So they don't have those in your area of Tennessee? My bird book says
they are throughout the USA (and beyond). You're lucky.

Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and say
anything they want.

Then you're no different then when Roy was attacking everyone. I wasn't
attacking you, I wasn't even personally addressing you at the time. I was
just mentioning what I know. You took it personal and then lashed out at
me. So why not you ask? Because it is wrong and hypocritical.

They lash out and jump on everything I say. Everything
has to be explained down to the last minute detail.

If you don't want to be misunderstood. When I say heron, and I bet 90% of
the people here do also, I think of the Great Blue.

Why and *I* held to a different standard? Why didn't you do this to the other poster to
recommended shooting and killing a protected bird, never mentioning it was
both illegal and immoral here in the USA?

Stick to the present and not some long past post. I didn't see this posted
recently here on RP, and if someone else covered it, I didn't see anything
to add. Last time I saw someone post that information was long, long ago. I
don't pull up old posts that have since lost their importance or
timeliness.

Then please ask for details before lecturing me on illegally "dumping
diseased" fish in waterways.

I didn't, see paragraph 3. I can't help it if you see everything I type as
lecturing YOU. That is YOUR problem not mine.

You're lecturing me on wildlife laws

You're getting your posters mixed up. I didn't even mention wildlife laws.

I'm well aware of without asking me for
more information *FLOORS* me - since you never did this to anyone else. Why
do it to me?

When I have replied to something that is a misunderstanding due to what
that poster typed, they come back and civilly fix it. They rarely took it
as a personal attacked. Why are you different you ask? That's why.

I don't want to hear it's legal to kill Herons in the UK because he didn't
tell the poster that - and YOU never said a word!!!! God help me if I
posted something like that.

I rarely EVER post on what makes heron an edible meat. It is not a hot
button for me, others cover that topic quite well. I never have and
probably never will. So my not saying a word wasn't a new MO for me. ~ jan

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:06:03 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

BTW the herons here are
the small ones about the size of a banty rooster.

Instead of being defensive, you could have mentioned this and the size of
the fish.

Why wasn't I asked before all the lectures and all the ASSUMING? Why do I
have to post 10K posts covering every little bitty thing when no one else is
expected to? What would make you think I would take "diseased fish" and
illegally dump them in some waterway or lake? Then when accused you don't
understand why I get a bit defensive. Why suddenly am I under suspicion with
every post, every subject when it wasn't this way before? When I had those
problems years ago with "contagious ulcers" the fish were disposed of by
burial where nothing could get to them to spread the disease. What couldn't
be sterilized was burnt in the burn bin. Not one of you questioned me at the
time about the disposal method I used.

A Great Blue Heron, could fly away with an 18-24" fish, it has happened
here. So they don't have those in your area of Tennessee? My bird book
says
they are throughout the USA (and beyond). You're lucky.

Sure they may be here, but so are bobcats and I don't see them either. I've
seen cranes down by the lake. No huge herons. Where does that leave
ponders then? Are we to net every pond to keep these huge birds from
carrying away our fish? You're not going to find many ponds where the fish
are 100% parasite free. It's suspected were I live that some diseases are
carried by frogs, snakes, water birds etc. How do you think sunfish get
into my ponds?

Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and say
anything they want.

Then you're no different then when Roy was attacking everyone.

Really? Who have I called the things he has called people for no reason at
all Jan? Have I called you a whore, a carpet-bagger, a gangster and some of
the things he's called people just for posting here?

I wasn't
attacking you, I wasn't even personally addressing you at the time. I was
just mentioning what I know. You took it personal and then lashed out at
me. So why not you ask? Because it is wrong and hypocritical.

So if you get annoyed you are free to show your annoyance but I am not? I'm
held to a different standard for some reason these days.


They lash out and jump on everything I say. Everything
has to be explained down to the last minute detail.

If you don't want to be misunderstood. When I say heron, and I bet 90% of
the people here do also, I think of the Great Blue.

And here in TN 90% of the people would probably think of the smaller herons
which are the bane of pond owners.

Why and *I* held to a different standard? Why didn't you do this to the
other poster to
recommended shooting and killing a protected bird, never mentioning it was
both illegal and immoral here in the USA?

Stick to the present and not some long past post.

The kill heron post was from a few days ago as way my sick fish post. What
makes mine recent and that one long past when they're from the same week?

I didn't see this posted
recently here on RP, and if someone else covered it, I didn't see anything
to add. Last time I saw someone post that information was long, long ago.
I
don't pull up old posts that have since lost their importance or
timeliness.

It was recent. I said the same suggestion to shoot and kill herons was made
in the past also.

Then please ask for details before lecturing me on illegally "dumping
diseased" fish in waterways.

I didn't, see paragraph 3. I can't help it if you see everything I type as
lecturing YOU. That is YOUR problem not mine.

What would you call lecturing? What do you want me to call it to please
you? Why say anything at all or ask for details which you did not do.

You're lecturing me on wildlife laws

You're getting your posters mixed up. I didn't even mention wildlife laws.

I'm well aware of without asking me for
more information *FLOORS* me - since you never did this to anyone else.
Why
do it to me?

When I have replied to something that is a misunderstanding due to what
that poster typed, they come back and civilly fix it. They rarely took it
as a personal attacked. Why are you different you ask? That's why.

I see. OK, next time ASK for a detailed explanation if you feel you need
one. I ASSUMED you had the smarts to know I knew the laws and would not
contaminate a local waterway (no rivers near me) or lake with "diseased
fish."

I don't want to hear it's legal to kill Herons in the UK because he didn't
tell the poster that - and YOU never said a word!!!! God help me if I
posted something like that.

I rarely EVER post on what makes heron an edible meat. It is not a hot
button for me, others cover that topic quite well. I never have and
probably never will. So my not saying a word wasn't a new MO for me. ~
jan

Then please don't "say a word" to me next time when it comes to the farm
ponds ok? :-) Because illegally killing birds is a more serious issue to
me than releasing a fish into a farm pond to let nature take it's course,
which it did, rather than killing her myself.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:03:56 -0600, Zëbulon wrote:

What would make you think I would take "diseased fish" and
illegally dump them in some waterway or lake?

You're right, when I read it, the topic had gotten turned to diseased fish
and putting them in a stock pond. My post in NO WAY was about YOU doing
anything ILLEGAL.

As far as you writing a 10K post to explain something, you have no problem
typing 10K posts to defend yourself.

snip history lesson and old post info

Sure they may be here, but so are bobcats and I don't see them either.

Huh? So one could slide up to that stock pond? So what were you going on
about? They're either there or not. You contradict yourself.

Why not jan? Everyone else seems to feel they can lash out at me and say
anything they want.

Then you're no different then when Roy was attacking everyone.

Really? Who have I called the things he has called people for no reason at
all Jan?

One doesn't have to call people names, lashing out and accusing, is the
same thing in my book. It will get a post rejected just as fast as calling
names in my book.

So if you get annoyed you are free to show your annoyance but I am not?

Hello? I wasn't then or now annoyed. YOU read that in there, and I don't
know how.

The kill heron post was from a few days ago as way my sick fish post. What
makes mine recent and that one long past when they're from the same week?

Sorry don't remember it. But like I said, it isn't my MO to address those.

I see. OK, next time ASK for a detailed explanation if you feel you need
one.

No, if I misunderstand, you can civilly correct me without jumping all over
my case that I'm attacking you.

I ASSUMED you had the smarts

That comment would get a reject. Because it is basically saying I must be
dumb.

to know I knew the laws and would not
contaminate a local waterway (no rivers near me) or lake with "diseased
fish."

For the umpteenth time I bring up anything about LAWS.

Then please don't "say a word" to me next time when it comes to the farm
ponds ok? :-)

Fine. I'll make it far more generic and see how that goes.

Because illegally killing birds is a more serious issue to
me than releasing a fish into a farm pond to let nature take it's course,
which it did, rather than killing her myself.

Fine, you fight that battle and don't say a word to me about not going
there. ~ jan