This message seems to have come detached from the thread that you are
responding to so is a bit confusing......Perhaps, it might be simplest
and make more sense to those of us trying to follow the conversation if
Jan started a new thread and then Tristan (and others) could respond
under the new top....

Just an idea
Gill

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:51:23 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

This message seems to have come detached from the thread that you are
responding to so is a bit confusing......Perhaps, it might be simplest
and make more sense to those of us trying to follow the conversation if
Jan started a new thread and then Tristan (and others) could respond
under the new top....

Just an idea
Gill

I did start a new thread, but Roy messed with the . What's wrong with
you Roy? slap, slap, slap! Oh well. ;-)

I do have a reply to Roy who said something about people shouldn't have
these critters if they aren't gonna feed them right. We have to remember
that dog chow doesn't even have that long a history. People fed their dogs
scraps off the table, right? Someone saw a market and here we be.

I just feel, with what we know today, that we ought to take advantage of
that knowledge. What you feed your own critters is up to you, but what you
recommend to others you ought to do with some integrity, based on recent
studies.

Sho Koi, delivered to my door, runs me less than $5/lb. and I'd save even
more if I could order 50 lbs. of it. Manda Fu, including delivery, runs
$15/throw pillow size bag. It is very light weight, so one can't go by
weight. Probably why it is so easily digested and a great fall/spring food.
~ jan

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

I do have a reply to Roy who said something about people shouldn't have
these critters if they aren't gonna feed them right. We have to remember
that dog chow doesn't even have that long a history. People fed their dogs
scraps off the table, right? Someone saw a market and here we be.

I just feel, with what we know today, that we ought to take advantage of
that knowledge. What you feed your own critters is up to you, but what you
recommend to others you ought to do with some integrity, based on recent
studies.

I don't recall anyone *recommending* the cheaper feeds. I do recall someone
replying to a poster that they fed the cheaper feeds with total success.
What people feed their fish is up to themselves and what they can afford.
If people were having all kinds of problems with trout and catfish trout
we'd be hearing about it.

Sho Koi, delivered to my door, runs me less than $5/lb. and I'd save even
more if I could order 50 lbs. of it. Manda Fu, including delivery, runs
$15/throw pillow size bag. It is very light weight, so one can't go by
weight. Probably why it is so easily digested and a great fall/spring
food.
~ jan

I haven't seen ShoKoi that cheap anywhere. Where are you getting it?
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:01:40 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

I don't recall anyone *recommending* the cheaper feeds. I do recall someone
replying to a poster that they fed the cheaper feeds with total success.

Just like newsgroups, all kinds go to pond club meetings, and very often
those that speak the loudest are often wrong. Just because they say total
success would need a follow up for me. We use to have such a member... and
we've had members who spout their wonderful cheap DYI filtration systems
also. I tell people go look, look at the filter, look at the pond. Is the
filter an eye sore? Is the pond green or murky? If so, look elsewhere.

What people feed their fish is up to themselves and what they can afford.
If people were having all kinds of problems with trout and catfish trout
we'd be hearing about it.

I have been hearing about it, many of us have mentioned it over the years.
Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

I haven't seen ShoKoi that cheap anywhere. Where are you getting it?

http://www.westernpond.com/koi_foods.htm Note that orders over $60 have
free shipping. I usually buy a 10 lb bag and 1 or 2 pounds of Sho Gold for
the goldfish to get the free shipping price. ~ jan

I'm pretty much with Tristan on this one in that food designed for a
certain animal is what the animal/creature should be being fed....yes,
my cat will eat the dog food, the dog will eat the cat food, the cat
will eat the fish food (but a bit cost prohibitive to feed a cat a
couple of cartons of marine flakes twice a day at around £7 a tub - but
useful for hoovering up spillages)....the dog will eat the food I give
my guinea pig and rabbit, the guinea pig and rabbit would eat the wild
bird food I put out - the cat would eat most of whatever is on offer but
I rather fancy the cat would prefer to eat the birds, the guinea pig and
rabbit - lol......haven't tried the fish on the diets of the mammals but
I'm pretty sure they would take it....and I am also pretty sure (with
the exception of giving meat the herbivores) that everyone would put on
weight and grow with whatever mixed up diet I care to give them....but
none would be healthy long term.....

Now it may well be true that one person has success in producing fat,
big fish by feeding them cat/dog food.....but equally most of us in the
Western World have had success in producing big, fat children by feeding
them an inappropriate diet....if we argue that the diets are
inappropriate for the children perhaps it should also be considered that
certain diets are inappropriate for our pets for the same reason.....

Now if the motivation is to get good bucks for fat, large but
potentially unhealthy fish then I guess that this is something we see
all the time in the fish trade...but it doesn't make it right.....

Now, when it comes to fish food.....expensive does not equal
good.....equally cheap doesn't equal the equivalent to other available
foods.....personally I've tried a number of foods (of varying price
tags) for my tank fish.....the conclusion has actually been that the
mid-range food suits better.....but not really because of how the fish
grow, colour etc. etc....but because of the impact on the water
quality......cheap foods contain a lot of bulk that eventually pollutes
the water with nitrates and phosphates, higher priced foods contain a
lot of protein (IME) which equally pollute the water with that rather
nasty oily skim on the surface (I dread to think what a high protein
cat/dog diet does - as afterall cat and dog food is designed to satisfy
the needs of carnivores).....the key is to find the food that suits you,
your environment and your fish.....Fish food suited to the fish is the
starting point....experimentation with it to get the desired results and
maintain the health of your fish is the goal.....feeding food not
designed for the animal in question is a non-starter....

Gill (getting off soap box for an hour or two)

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
I'm pretty much with Tristan on this one in that food designed for a
certain animal is what the animal/creature should be being fed....yes, my
cat will eat the dog food, the dog will eat the cat food, the cat will eat
the fish food (but a bit cost prohibitive to feed a cat a couple of
cartons of marine flakes twice a day at around £7 a tub - but useful for
hoovering up spillages)....the dog will eat the food I give my guinea pig
and rabbit, the guinea pig and rabbit would eat the wild bird food I put
out - the cat would eat most of whatever is on offer but I rather fancy
the cat would prefer to eat the birds, the guinea pig and rabbit -
lol......haven't tried the fish on the diets of the mammals but I'm pretty
sure they would take it....and I am also pretty sure (with the exception
of giving meat the herbivores) that everyone would put on weight and grow
with whatever mixed up diet I care to give them....but none would be
healthy long term.....
Now it may well be true that one person has success in producing fat, big
fish by feeding them cat/dog food...
...but equally most of us in the
Western World have had success in producing big, fat children by feeding
them an inappropriate diet...


Not FAT fish. That's overfeeding. Well fleshed is not fat. We have a 4
month winter here so the fish have to carry enough fat to see them through.
By spring they're the perfect weight and breed like crazy. There's a big
difference between fat and well fed - be they children, dogs, gerbils or
fish.

..if we argue that the diets are
inappropriate for the children perhaps it should also be considered that
certain diets are inappropriate for our pets for the same reason.....

Now if the motivation is to get good bucks for fat, large but potentially
unhealthy fish

Don't assume they're unhealthy. Unhealthy fish don't survive 4+ month
winters and breed more fry than their ponds can hold.

then I guess that this is something we see
all the time in the fish trade...but it doesn't make it right.....

Now, when it comes to fish food.....expensive does not equal
good.....equally cheap doesn't equal the equivalent to other available
foods.....personally I've tried a number of foods (of varying price tags)
for my tank fish.....the conclusion has actually been that the mid-range
food suits better.....but not really because of how the fish grow, colour
etc. etc....but because of the impact on the water quality......

Aquarium fish are more limited in the availability of natural foods. My fish
have access to things indoor fish do not.

cheap foods contain a lot of bulk that eventually pollutes
the water with nitrates and phosphates, higher priced foods contain a lot
of protein (IME) which equally pollute the water with that rather nasty
oily skim on the surface (I dread to think what a high protein cat/dog
diet does - as afterall cat and dog food is designed to satisfy the needs
of carnivores).....the key is to find the food that suits you, your
environment and your fish.....Fish food suited to the fish is the starting
point....experimentation with it to get the desired results and maintain
the health of your fish is the goal....

Exactly, and if your fish thrive on trout and catfish chow.... stick with
it. Don't rock the boat or fix something if it isn't broken.

..feeding food not
designed for the animal in question is a non-starter....

So are we to assume you only feed natural foods to your children such as
veggies, fruit and meat? No snacks, no candy, no pie, no bread, no chips,
no milk past weaning... only the natural foods we would find in the wild
that we evolved with and thrive on?

Gill (getting off soap box for an hour or two)
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:01:40 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

I don't recall anyone *recommending* the cheaper feeds. I do recall
someone
replying to a poster that they fed the cheaper feeds with total success.

Just like newsgroups, all kinds go to pond club meetings, and very often
those that speak the loudest are often wrong.

Maybe it wasn't wrong for them since they weren't having problems with their
fish. Look at the low-carb diets people are on these days. Some have been
on them for many years and are in perfect health. Others, also in perfect
health are vegetarians who may only eat an occasional egg or fish dinner.

Just because they say total
success would need a follow up for me.

Well,... here's one follow up. My fish have been on the cheaper foods for
years now without a problem. I'm sure there are others here as well,
thought after these debates they're probably afraid to come forward and
discuss their failures or successes.

We use to have such a member... and
we've had members who spout their wonderful cheap DYI filtration systems
also. I tell people go look, look at the filter, look at the pond. Is the
filter an eye sore? Is the pond green or murky? If so, look elsewhere.

Maybe cheap DYI filters are all they can afford. Not everyone has a 6 figure
income.

What people feed their fish is up to themselves and what they can afford.
If people were having all kinds of problems with trout and catfish trout
we'd be hearing about it.

I have been hearing about it, many of us have mentioned it over the years.
Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

I haven't seen anyone here mention their vet finding their koi dying do to
feeding trout and catfish chow.

I haven't seen ShoKoi that cheap anywhere. Where are you getting it?

http://www.westernpond.com/koi_foods.htm Note that orders over $60 have
free shipping. I usually buy a 10 lb bag and 1 or 2 pounds of Sho Gold for
the goldfish to get the free shipping price. ~ jan

Well I tried the $5 lb food and was disappointed so.... If I start having
problems with my koi and goldfish I'll look into buying these "rip off"
priced feeds.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim

On 24 Feb 2007 19:32:26 -0800, "Phyllis and Jim"
wrote:

Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim

I'll see if I can find something. ~ jan

~ jan wrote:
On 24 Feb 2007 19:32:26 -0800, "Phyllis and Jim"
wrote:


Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim


I'll see if I can find something. ~ jan

That would be very interesting if you can - my guess would be that the
key is a varied diet suited to the nutritional needs of the
animal/creature in question....

Gill

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
ps.com...
Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim

====================
I'm curious to know how these veterinarians are related to the pond fish
(koi) industry. Also who paid for or supported the research. How many years
it was carried out and in what climate/zones. And how old were the fry when
the research started. What where the growth rates between the different koi
feeds in the research program compared to the trout and catfish foods. What
conditions were the koi living under. What University was the research done
at......
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

I teach research methodology to family therapy students. Your
questions are right on target when we are in the threats to validity
section of the course. We spend time thinking of all sorts of things
that could possibly influence the outcome. Professional research
generally tries to describe the limitations of the work to guide
future researchers.

I also push my students to asses the threats as to the magnitude of
their probable influence. This set of decisions is harder to make and
imprecise because so much is unknown. A good class will produce
hundreds of possible threats, more than can be controlled unless the
researcher has nearly infinite financing. The result often reduces
the number of clearly-relevant-and-significantly-impactful threats.

We also discuss the magnitude of threat to validity that we would
consider to be important. If we were examining frequency of dyed hair
among clients, we could allow lots of threats to go by. If we were
testing medication with lethal side effects, we would want to run down
lots more of the threats.

My guess is that koi/goldfish research will provide us with some
answers to some of your questions. If Jan can find some research, we
could look at it in terms of possible threats to validity. Your
questions about who paid for the research are certainly on target.

Statistics has a bunch of sayings: 'Garbage in, garbage out' describes
the effect of poor data collection. 'There are liars, damned liars
and statisticians' describes manipulative use of research. I am sure
we will all look at nutrition studies carefully.

Jim

I am old enough to remember when we had dogs we bought frozen raw horse meat for
them. later my parents starting feeding "kibble". I have one dog (inherited) who
went to emergency with congestive heart failure. 1500 bucks later I got back a nearly
dead dog with "6 months to live". She is allergic to nearly everything. She looked
listless on her allergy and then her "heart" diet and her fur (she is a Pom) was like
straw. At the same time our new springer broke out in hot spots and granuloma.
1.5 years ago I switched all the dogs to a raw meaty bone diet, the Pom is fed whole
raw fish (that includes head, tail, innards). Within a week she is back to bright,
sassy, and now her fur is like silk. It is now 1 year 9 months since she almost
died. None of my dogs have bad teeth anymore, none foul breath, none itchy or
problem skin, their coats are all full and lush.

Dog evolved for over a million years and their food is nearly 100% raw meaty bone.
Now that so many "premium" diets are sickening and killing dogs due to fungal toxins
growing on the grain used in the diets, so many dogs have allergies, cancer, etc.
more people are taking dogs back to natural raw meaty bones diets.

Who has the money and interest to do the research to answer these questions? it isnt
simply one dog food, there are hundreds. For most dogs the grain based food works OK
so the number of dogs would have to be very large to get any kind of significance.
Or maybe not.

I do know one thing brought home the need for proper food diets was a study I'd seen
done on ferrets. I used to have ferrets but it broke my heart that they went into
this horrible decline between 2-3 and died so young. I had no idea why this was
happening until I read up on raw diets for dogs, then did a search on the net.

http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk/comments.htm It is not standard research, but
some one that has tried various things and kept track.

I think the same is true of fish. Koi and Goldfish dont eat "veggies", they eat the
itty bitty critters on the algae. In China and Japan they power feed the young ones
live food like blood worms, black worms, daphnia, etc. all manner of "meat". I have
been feeding my koi a high quality koi food, Rangen koi color. It isnt ideal, but I
havent had any disease in my fish since I went to this food (and a veggie filter and
heating the pond in winter). So I dont really know which is responsible for the
health of my fish. In spring I do see a little bit of white crap on a few of them,
especially my black koi which show everything. But as the water warms it goes away.

I feed my 22 fish about 1/2 cup a day. The less waste grains in the food, the less
mess in the water, the less ammonia too. This coming year I am going to look for
even more natural food, something like this
http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FISH...eze_dried.html

Ingrid


~ jan wrote:
I do have a reply to Roy who said something about people shouldn't have
these critters if they aren't gonna feed them right. We have to remember
that dog chow doesn't even have that long a history. People fed their dogs
scraps off the table, right? Someone saw a market and here we be.

I just feel, with what we know today, that we ought to take advantage of
that knowledge. What you feed your own critters is up to you, but what you
recommend to others you ought to do with some integrity, based on recent
studies.

Sho Koi, delivered to my door, runs me less than $5/lb. and I'd save even
more if I could order 50 lbs. of it. Manda Fu, including delivery, runs
$15/throw pillow size bag. It is very light weight, so one can't go by
weight. Probably why it is so easily digested and a great fall/spring food.
~ jan



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

I think that you have raised some very interesting points here.....


wrote:
I am old enough to remember when we had dogs we bought frozen raw horse meat for
them. later my parents starting feeding "kibble".

I remember 40 years plus ago my Grandmother only ever fed offal and
other meat to her cat - it lived until almost 20. OTOH my previous cat
lived on a diet of tinned cat food and biscuits and even though it was
the top brand died of kidney failure at 12.....


I have one dog (inherited) who
went to emergency with congestive heart failure. 1500 bucks later I got back a nearly
dead dog with "6 months to live". She is allergic to nearly everything. She looked
listless on her allergy and then her "heart" diet and her fur (she is a Pom) was like
straw. At the same time our new springer broke out in hot spots and granuloma.
1.5 years ago I switched all the dogs to a raw meaty bone diet, the Pom is fed whole
raw fish (that includes head, tail, innards). Within a week she is back to bright,
sassy, and now her fur is like silk. It is now 1 year 9 months since she almost
died. None of my dogs have bad teeth anymore, none foul breath, none itchy or
problem skin, their coats are all full and lush.

Food allergies seem to be something of our times......I really can't
remember even a couple of decades ago that there was such a high
profile....an example would be nut allergies....unheard of when I was a
child in the 60s but these days you can't even send a child in with a
lunch containing any trace of nuts just in case it effects someone with
a nut allergy....interestingly enough when I was expecting the youngest
(now almost 6) the advice was not to eat any nuts while pregnant because
the theory was that nut allergies developed before birth - conversely of
course, it could be because people don't eat so many nuts these days
that the allergy has developed.....Now, I'm wondering if the same
applies to other animals.....My experience with dogs actually differs
from yours.....mine become unhealthy if fed a pure , protein
diet....(and you don't want to be the first downstairs believe me)....So
I wonder how much of this is actually down to the evolution of these
creatures as well....



Dog evolved for over a million years and their food is nearly 100% raw meaty bone.
Now that so many "premium" diets are sickening and killing dogs due to fungal toxins
growing on the grain used in the diets, so many dogs have allergies, cancer, etc.
more people are taking dogs back to natural raw meaty bones diets.

Who has the money and interest to do the research to answer these questions? it isnt
simply one dog food, there are hundreds. For most dogs the grain based food works OK
so the number of dogs would have to be very large to get any kind of significance.
Or maybe not.

I would hazard a guess that most of the research is done by the Pet Food
companies but, certainly in the UK, commissioned via the
Universities....afterall it is not in their interests to produce a food
targetted at a certain animal/fish that does not provide for the
nutritional needs of that creature.....this has to be coupled with a
little bit of sceptism that a company commissioning research on one of
their products wants a positive research project saying that their
product is the best......the ability to read behind the lines is an
essential qualification needed when reading such reports, and to read
the one that actually came from the research rather than the one put out
for marketing....


I do know one thing brought home the need for proper food diets was a study I'd seen
done on ferrets. I used to have ferrets but it broke my heart that they went into
this horrible decline between 2-3 and died so young. I had no idea why this was
happening until I read up on raw diets for dogs, then did a search on the net.

http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk/comments.htm It is not standard research, but
some one that has tried various things and kept track.

I've had similar experiences with guinea-pigs and rabbits....my pair now
have a very mixed diet with little reliance on the commercially produced
food although they do get this daily as well....key I guess is a mixed
diet....



I think the same is true of fish. Koi and Goldfish dont eat "veggies", they eat the
itty bitty critters on the algae. In China and Japan they power feed the young ones
live food like blood worms, black worms, daphnia, etc. all manner of "meat". I have
been feeding my koi a high quality koi food, Rangen koi color. It isnt ideal, but I
havent had any disease in my fish since I went to this food (and a veggie filter and
heating the pond in winter). So I dont really know which is responsible for the
health of my fish. In spring I do see a little bit of white crap on a few of them,
especially my black koi which show everything. But as the water warms it goes away.

One of the problems is that without a controlled environment it is not
possible to say what is the actual cause of fish thriving/not
thriving.....it could well be claimed that a change in diet might cause
a lack of growth but without actually having a control enviroment to
compare with the statement it becomes very much an IME.......not only do
we have the variable of the change in diet but also other variables -
and a pond can hardly be claimed to be a closed environment so even if
we believe nothing has changed it could well have....



I feed my 22 fish about 1/2 cup a day. The less waste grains in the food, the less
mess in the water, the less ammonia too. This coming year I am going to look for
even more natural food, something like this
http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FISH...eze_dried.html

Sadly, it isn't always possible for everyone to feed a natural diet to
their fish.....in fact it is nigh on impossible unless we return them to
the wild....but we do the best we can with what is available......Good
luck, Ingrid, with the move to more natural foods - I'm sure your fish
will appreciate it and thrive - plus look forward to hearing how they do....

Gill



Ingrid

Since this has traveled on to other pet foods... and the evils of the pet
food industry. beg

The grocery store I frequent has those bulk food bins, where you fill your
bag to the amount you want and pay/lb. Interestingly enough, if I got to
the Hardware store or WW and buy squirrel feed, a mix of corn, peanuts and
sunflowers it will cost me more per lb. Yet at the grocers I can buy people
grade peanuts and (hulled) sunflower seeds cheaper. I'm not about spending
more, spending more isn't what it is about. It is reading the label and
using some common sense. ~ jan