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#16
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re.Koi Food -
Right now I'm just doing some googling and found an article by Sandy Yosha,
who has no involvement with fish food makers. She was our vet for the KHA's paid by the AKCA, she now works for a very big vet. clinic in Florida doing only fish. From this website: http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...koi%20husb.pdf This small insert: Nutritional Diseases- (Review the Nutrition section). Nutritional diseases fall into two categories: deficiency or toxicity. The most common deficiency known to date is vitamin C, which can cause crooked backs, bone deformities, bleeding, abnormal wound healing and many other problems. Vitamin C deficiency compromises the immune system so that the koi are more susceptible to other diseases. With the advent of stabilized vitamin C in the food (a synthetic vitamin C that is much more stable than natural vitamin C), vitamin C deficiency is less common. However, much less is known about the other vitamin deficiencies in koi and they might be suspected in cases where the cause of disease is not immediately obvious. The signs of deficiency or toxicity are complex and subtle, and are covered in the supplemental textbook for this course. Also review the AKCA Guide to Koi Nutrition and the nutrition sections of this course. The KHA is not likely to be dealing with vitamin deficiency if the fish are eating a quality diet, but if they are not, it will be one of the first changes in husbandry that the KHA should suggest. BoldCatfish and trout chows are not appropriate feed for koi.Bold Many will debate the quality of koi feeds, but there are many good choices that are commercially available. All feeds are not necessarily appropriate for all life stages or for all seasons. One fact is certain, good quality feed will contain stabilized or synthetic vitamin C. Review the nutrition sections for additional information. In order to maintain nutritional value, check the shelf life of the feed, the date of milling or freshness, buy in small quantity and keep the feed dry and cool. Freezing pelleted feed is not recommended, but short term freezing of pelleted feed containing a medicine can be done since it is a small quantity.... ---- I met Sandy, really respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the pet food industry. Her write up, and there is far more to it than the above, including pictures, is well worth the read. As it is more than just nutrition. Unless I hear back for the KHA board on a better article, you all can google as easily as I can. :-) I'm convinced, and like I said, an owner can feed their fish, dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't think it is prudent to be telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To go in that direction. ~ jan |
#18
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re.Koi Food -
"~ jan" wrote in message ... Right now I'm just doing some googling and found an article by Sandy Yosha, who has no involvement with fish food makers. She was our vet for the KHA's paid by the AKCA, she now works for a very big vet. clinic in Florida doing only fish. From this website: http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...koi%20husb.pdf This small insert: Nutritional Diseases- (Review the Nutrition section). Nutritional diseases fall into two categories: deficiency or toxicity. The most common deficiency known to date is vitamin C, which can cause crooked backs, bone deformities, bleeding, abnormal wound healing and many other problems. * I've never seen that in my fish indoors or out. They have access to C rich algae and fresh oranges (which they love). Vitamin C deficiency compromises the immune system so that the koi are more susceptible to other diseases. With the advent of stabilized vitamin C in the food (a synthetic vitamin C that is much more stable than natural vitamin C), vitamin C deficiency is less common. However, much less is known about the other vitamin deficiencies in koi and they might be suspected in cases where the cause of disease is not immediately obvious. The signs of deficiency or toxicity are complex and subtle, and are covered in the supplemental textbook for this course. Also review the AKCA Guide to Koi Nutrition and the nutrition sections of this course. The KHA is not likely to be dealing with vitamin deficiency if the fish are eating a quality diet, but if they are not, it will be one of the first changes in husbandry that the KHA should suggest. BoldCatfish and trout chows are not appropriate feed for koi.Bold * For what reason? Trout and Catfish don't require vitamin C? Many will debate the quality of koi feeds, but there are many good choices that are commercially available. All feeds are not necessarily appropriate for all life stages or for all seasons. * And NOTE please that they don't state that fact on the bags no matter how outrageously expensive. One fact is certain, good quality feed will contain stabilized or synthetic vitamin C. Review the nutrition sections for additional information. In order to maintain nutritional value, check the shelf life of the feed, the date of milling or freshness, buy in small quantity and keep the feed dry and cool. Freezing pelleted feed is not recommended, but short term freezing of pelleted feed containing a medicine can be done since it is a small quantity.... ---- I met Sandy, really respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the pet food industry. * She didn't mention why catfish and trout chows are "not appropriate" either. Her write up, and there is far more to it than the above, including pictures, is well worth the read. As it is more than just nutrition. Unless I hear back for the KHA board on a better article, you all can google as easily as I can. :-) I'm convinced, and like I said, an owner can feed their fish, dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't think it is prudent to be telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To go in that direction. ~ jan * If they ask what is BEST they should get replies from everyone as to what is BEST for THEIR fish, under their conditions in their zone. No one can know what is best for the person asking unless they have the same set-up in the same climate zone etc. Even then.... how can you be sure? People should be told that others do have great success with the cheaper feeds. Why deny them that knowledge? Let them chose which route to take. Paying $10 a lb is no guarantee the food is any better than food costing $4 a lb. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o |
#19
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re.Koi Food -
I met Sandy, I respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the
pet food industry. Her write up, is well worth the read. As it is more than just nutrition. Unless I hear back from the KHA board on a better article, You can google as easily as I can. :-) I'll take her word for it, and like I said, an owner can feed their fish, dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't think it is prudent to be telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To go in that direction. Your experience, fine, just expect it to be rebuttal and don't take it personally. ~ jan |
#20
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re.Koi Food -
Trout and catfish chows are formulated to grow trout and catfish as large as
possible as quickly as possible in order to get them to your table as cheaply as possible. These fish are collected for consumption when they are no more than 2 years old. The feeds are formulated for fast growth, NOT the longterm (meaning many years) health and well being of said fish. Healthy KOI will live for 40+ years. |
#21
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re.Koi Food - OT -
Since this has traveled on to other pet foods... and the evils of the pet
food industry. beg The grocery store I frequent has those bulk food bins, where you fill your bag to the amount you want and pay/lb. Interestingly enough, if I got to the Hardware store or WW and buy squirrel feed, a mix of corn, peanuts and sunflowers it will cost me more per lb. Yet at the grocers I can buy people grade peanuts and (hulled) sunflower seeds cheaper. I'm not about spending more, spending more isn't what it is about. It is reading the label and using some common sense. ~ jan |
#22
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re.Koi Food - OT - has lost its link with the original thread
I buy and feed mainly Nutro brand dog foods, and my dogs do fine,
however I do have a hybrid wolf 97% that can not exist on commerical prepared dog foods......Period. Since we have a pretty wide open hunting season here in Alabama, and can shoot a deer daily form the start to the end of the season, which is basically from Mid Oct to end of Jan, I made it a point to shot enough deer to fill up a deepfreeze of 29 cu ft capacity. We also butcher our own beef,so out dogs and the wolf gets more real meat which includes innerds as well as the good stuyff. Deer is reserved strictly for the dogs and wolf but we do share the beef and pork......Also have goats we intend to offer up to them as well. Oh, and my wolf and dogs have eaten koi as well as the wife and I....I just am not of the belief that dogs can exist on grains alone witn a bit of meaty artifical flaor or rancid greases and scraps blended in...Same for the fish.....the foods contain more fish meal stuff than grains and cereals....... Worst foods made are those sold under the WAlly World name of Special Kitty or Old Roy'........We to used to have problems with smell, dong crap that never would go away and turn into white petrified lumps.......nasty fishy breath, dull coats, dry skin......not any more since Old Roy brand feeds went away and Nutro brand feeds came on board along with rations of real meat and fish. I save the cereal grains fo rthe goats......and steers. On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:45:08 GMT, wrote: I am old enough to remember when we had dogs we bought frozen raw horse meat for them. later my parents starting feeding "kibble". I have one dog (inherited) who went to emergency with congestive heart failure. 1500 bucks later I got back a nearly dead dog with "6 months to live". She is allergic to nearly everything. She looked listless on her allergy and then her "heart" diet and her fur (she is a Pom) was like straw. At the same time our new springer broke out in hot spots and granuloma. 1.5 years ago I switched all the dogs to a raw meaty bone diet, the Pom is fed whole raw fish (that includes head, tail, innards). Within a week she is back to bright, sassy, and now her fur is like silk. It is now 1 year 9 months since she almost died. None of my dogs have bad teeth anymore, none foul breath, none itchy or problem skin, their coats are all full and lush. Dog evolved for over a million years and their food is nearly 100% raw meaty bone. Now that so many "premium" diets are sickening and killing dogs due to fungal toxins growing on the grain used in the diets, so many dogs have allergies, cancer, etc. more people are taking dogs back to natural raw meaty bones diets. Who has the money and interest to do the research to answer these questions? it isnt simply one dog food, there are hundreds. For most dogs the grain based food works OK so the number of dogs would have to be very large to get any kind of significance. Or maybe not. I do know one thing brought home the need for proper food diets was a study I'd seen done on ferrets. I used to have ferrets but it broke my heart that they went into this horrible decline between 2-3 and died so young. I had no idea why this was happening until I read up on raw diets for dogs, then did a search on the net. http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk/comments.htm It is not standard research, but some one that has tried various things and kept track. I think the same is true of fish. Koi and Goldfish dont eat "veggies", they eat the itty bitty critters on the algae. In China and Japan they power feed the young ones live food like blood worms, black worms, daphnia, etc. all manner of "meat". I have been feeding my koi a high quality koi food, Rangen koi color. It isnt ideal, but I havent had any disease in my fish since I went to this food (and a veggie filter and heating the pond in winter). So I dont really know which is responsible for the health of my fish. In spring I do see a little bit of white crap on a few of them, especially my black koi which show everything. But as the water warms it goes away. I feed my 22 fish about 1/2 cup a day. The less waste grains in the food, the less mess in the water, the less ammonia too. This coming year I am going to look for even more natural food, something like this http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FISH...eze_dried.html Ingrid ~ jan wrote: I do have a reply to Roy who said something about people shouldn't have these critters if they aren't gonna feed them right. We have to remember that dog chow doesn't even have that long a history. People fed their dogs scraps off the table, right? Someone saw a market and here we be. I just feel, with what we know today, that we ought to take advantage of that knowledge. What you feed your own critters is up to you, but what you recommend to others you ought to do with some integrity, based on recent studies. Sho Koi, delivered to my door, runs me less than $5/lb. and I'd save even more if I could order 50 lbs. of it. Manda Fu, including delivery, runs $15/throw pillow size bag. It is very light weight, so one can't go by weight. Probably why it is so easily digested and a great fall/spring food. ~ jan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan ------- I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know! |
#23
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re.Koi Food -
Cheap asses without a clue, feed cat food, cherios and trout chow and catfish food to ornamental koi and golidies. On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:54:36 GMT, "Killjoy" wrote: Trout and catfish chows are formulated to grow trout and catfish as large as possible as quickly as possible in order to get them to your table as cheaply as possible. These fish are collected for consumption when they are no more than 2 years old. The feeds are formulated for fast growth, NOT the longterm (meaning many years) health and well being of said fish. Healthy KOI will live for 40+ years. ------- I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know! |
#24
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re.Koi Food -
No comment! IMHO it falls under erroneous and unsubstantiated informaiton. On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:54:06 GMT, ~ jan wrote: I met Sandy, I respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the pet food industry. Her write up, is well worth the read. As it is more than just nutrition. Unless I hear back from the KHA board on a better article, You can google as easily as I can. :-) I'll take her word for it, and like I said, an owner can feed their fish, dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't think it is prudent to be telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To go in that direction. Your experience, fine, just expect it to be rebuttal and don't take it personally. ~ jan ------- I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know! |
#25
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re.Koi Food - OT -
Exactly..... On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:02:39 GMT, ~ jan wrote: Since this has traveled on to other pet foods... and the evils of the pet food industry. beg The grocery store I frequent has those bulk food bins, where you fill your bag to the amount you want and pay/lb. Interestingly enough, if I got to the Hardware store or WW and buy squirrel feed, a mix of corn, peanuts and sunflowers it will cost me more per lb. Yet at the grocers I can buy people grade peanuts and (hulled) sunflower seeds cheaper. I'm not about spending more, spending more isn't what it is about. It is reading the label and using some common sense. ~ jan ------- I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know! |
#26
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re.Koi Food -
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:52:08 -0600, Tristin
wrote: No comment! IMHO it falls under erroneous and unsubstantiated informaiton. What does? What Sandy wrote? If so, prove her wrong. ~ jan On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:54:06 GMT, ~ jan wrote: I met Sandy, I respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the pet food industry. Her write up, is well worth the read. As it is more than just nutrition. Unless I hear back from the KHA board on a better article, You can google as easily as I can. :-) I'll take her word for it, and like I said, an owner can feed their fish, dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't think it is prudent to be telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To go in that direction. Your experience, fine, just expect it to be rebuttal and don't take it personally. ~ jan ------- I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know! |
#27
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re.Koi Food -
Tristin wrote:
No comment! IMHO it falls under erroneous and unsubstantiated informaiton. I'm a little confused here as this statement doesn't quite fit in with everything that you have stated on this subject in the past.....please clarify, Tristan.... Gill |
#28
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re.Koi Food -
The feeding of catfoods and catfish chow etc to koi and goldies is what I find erroneous and unsubstantiated. On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:37:33 GMT, ~ jan wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:52:08 -0600, Tristin wrote: No comment! IMHO it falls under erroneous and unsubstantiated informaiton. What does? What Sandy wrote? If so, prove her wrong. ~ jan On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:54:06 GMT, ~ jan wrote: I met Sandy, I respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the pet food industry. Her write up, is well worth the read. As it is more than just nutrition. Unless I hear back from the KHA board on a better article, You can google as easily as I can. :-) I'll take her word for it, and like I said, an owner can feed their fish, dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't think it is prudent to be telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To go in that direction. Your experience, fine, just expect it to be rebuttal and don't take it personally. ~ jan ------- I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know! ------- I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know! |
#29
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re.Koi Food -
Dunno where the area of not understanding lies, I just do not agree
that feeding of koi or goldies catfish or cat food is prudent....I class it as erroneous info...and a practice touted by folks that have no regard forthe health and longevity of their fish...... Hell I know lots of kids that thought a coca cola and bag of potatoe chips was the average american meal and a big mac and french fries was something that you endulged your self on for a Sunday "cooked meal out on the town " with...... Sure those kids looked fine and healty too......nice and fat and plump but no telling what else all that fat and plumpness was hding in rthe way of health problems. On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:07:07 +0000, Gill Passman wrote: Tristin wrote: No comment! IMHO it falls under erroneous and unsubstantiated informaiton. I'm a little confused here as this statement doesn't quite fit in with everything that you have stated on this subject in the past.....please clarify, Tristan.... Gill ------- I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know! |
#30
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re.Koi Food -
Tristin wrote:
Dunno where the area of not understanding lies, I just do not agree that feeding of koi or goldies catfish or cat food is prudent....I class it as erroneous info...and a practice touted by folks that have no regard forthe health and longevity of their fish...... Hell I know lots of kids that thought a coca cola and bag of potatoe chips was the average american meal and a big mac and french fries was something that you endulged your self on for a Sunday "cooked meal out on the town " with...... Sure those kids looked fine and healty too......nice and fat and plump but no telling what else all that fat and plumpness was hding in rthe way of health problems. Ah, so there is no misunderstanding here at all....now I have absolutely no issue with feeding my kids KFC or a nice big mac from time to time....sure doesn't do them any harm.....but would do a hell of a lot of harm if that was their staple diet....they would be plump and fat and look the picture of health when compared to the malnourished kids of the early 20th century....but in reality they would not be healthy as it is not a diet suited to their well-being..... Now, I'm brought to mind of a certain health check I got.....given before the blood tests and the evidence where I got condemned as being a no hoper - it is tick the boxes mentality.....do I eat fried food (yes sometimes), do I drink alcohol (well yes I do), do I smoke (well yes, that is one I want to stop), do I take salt with my food (well yes, but I don't cook with it) - expert told me I had to mend my ways....my blood test results would confirm it....but the tick boxes missing are "how often do I eat badly", "how much fruit and veg do I eat", "when we are talking fried food are we talking stuff fried in good or bad oils" and "how often to I eat badly when compared to the number of times I eat a good diet".....it has to be said that my blood test results bore out the fact that in the main I am far healthier than most.....they just missed the positive tick boxes in their survey and diagnosis...... Now, to bring this back on topic......a varied diet suited to the species in question is the best for promoting health....a little variation doesn't hurt....but a total lack of variation does......the key is a balanced diet with the emphasis being on the healthy bits....but if you get this right the occassional unhealthy adventures don't hurt.....I actually find it quite strange that my so called unhealthy children shout at me to provide salad rather than chips.....in my day chips were a treat not the salad....and yes, my kids get the salad.....and for them the chips are a treat..... Gill On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:07:07 +0000, Gill Passman wrote: Tristin wrote: No comment! IMHO it falls under erroneous and unsubstantiated informaiton. I'm a little confused here as this statement doesn't quite fit in with everything that you have stated on this subject in the past.....please clarify, Tristan.... Gill ------- I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know! |
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