Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

Trash bag???

[Sorry, I'd been having trouble keeping with all the volume here, so I
missed that part.]

Timothy, when you you use an ice-filled trash bag to cool down your pond?
Before the original fish-dying problem, or well after that? If you put the
trash bag in the pond after the original problem, then disregard the rest of
my post.

Trash bags are (I think) made of recycled low-density polyethylene (LDPE),
which should not in itself cause a problem. However, I thought I read that
somewhere that trash bags are actually coated on the outside with a powder
of some sort, either to facilitate the manufacturing process and/or to make
it possible for us consumers to get the bags off a roll -- especially if
you use the kind I do that don't need to be torn off a roll.

I guess maybe I spent too much time watching Industry on Parade on TV when I
was a kid; also, my dad was a plastics engineer, so I tend to think along
strange lines sometimes. OTOH, I can also tell you why aluminum foil is
shiny on 1 side & dull on the other (or at least I heard a reasonable
explanation).

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

"Timothy Tom" wrote in message
om...
Another update:

A bowl of pond water which had just done in a goldfish was taken
inside the house and allowed to equilibrate to the same temp as the
other bowl of water containing kitchen faucet water. I was concerned
that the elevated temp of the outside pond water was responsible for
killing fish. I took one of the goldfish that had been living in the
kitchen faucet water for over 24hrs, and placed it in the
temp-equilibrated pond water. I stayed up for a couple of hours, and
although the fish had not died, it was clearly not doing well when I
went to bed. It was dead in the morning, while the fish in the bowl
with kitchen faucet water were fine.

After all the tests and dead goldfish, I believe that I have
determined a possible cause. When adding a large trash bag filled
with ice to cool the pond, I caused considerable waves in the pond. I
noticed that there was a small puddle next to the pond which moved in
sync with the pond water disturbance. I believe that there is a leak
in the pond somewhere (difficult to tell with this black preformed
liner) which is in equilibrium with water which has collected under
the pond. The water under the pond must have some toxic substance in
it which is contaminating the pond. This conclusion makes sense to me
since water taken directly from the auto-refill does not kill fish,
but water coming from the auto-refill system into a freshly cleaned
pond liner does quickly kill fish.

As far as the pond size, I believe I was incorrect in my original
posting that the pond is about 150 gallons. A landscaper installed
the pond, so I don't have the documentation on it. I went to the pond
liner manufacturer site and I believe I found the liner that matches
our shape and it is 250 gallons.

I plan to completely empty the pond to dryness, and thoroughly inspect
the pond liner to see if I can find any leaks.

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

Well right on schedule, within two hours the fish is just about dead.
Something new that I have noticed is that the auto-refill appears to
never shut off. My LAST POSSIBLE explanation is that the auto-refill
continues to allow chlorinated water to flow into the pond which kills
the fish within a couple of hours. This last time, I am going to
empty the pond, and refill it partially and then turn the auto-refill
system off.

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

Well right on schedule, within two hours the fish is just about dead.
Something new that I have noticed is that the auto-refill appears to
never shut off. My LAST POSSIBLE explanation is that the auto-refill
continues to allow chlorinated water to flow into the pond which kills
the fish within a couple of hours. This last time, I am going to
empty the pond, and refill it partially and then turn the auto-refill
system off.

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

This a mystery wrapped up inside of an enigma!

Hope the leaking auto fill is the final answer.
We'll be waiting in pins and needles to find out!


k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
to the fish (until this recent problem).

When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
landed.

I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

Hallelujah !!!! ~~~~ Nedra


"Timothy Tom" wrote in message
om...
EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
to the fish (until this recent problem).

When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
landed.

I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

EUREKA!!!!
:-)
hope this is the answer!


k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

I'm glad to hear that the fish-killing problem has been identified.

However, IMHO, the next step would be to deal with the
pesticide-contaminated soil.

Stepping down from my soap box for tonight,

[sorry, it's been a tough week for me -- started with blaster worm & ended
with blackout-stranded relatives I was unable to reach because of blackout,
etc.]

G'night all,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"Timothy Tom" wrote in message
om...
EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
to the fish (until this recent problem).

When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
landed.

I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

Just a quote from the Newsgroups regarding the active ingredient in
Wasp spray and fish toxicity. By the way, the goldfish has survived
over 6 hours in the pond, well past the normal "death time" of two
hours, so I believe the residual wasp spray is the culprit.
Interestingly the poster quoted below says the active ingredient does
not persist in the environment very long.

Almost nothing more toxic to fish than pyrethroids, the type of poison
in wasp spray. Some pyrethroids are so toxic to
fish that the amount needed to kill the fish cannot be measured in the
water (part per trillion).

Check the label, if it says something like "resmethrin, permethrin,
tetramethrin, or any other -methrin", keep it far away
from the fish pond.

We spray wasps out in the lake with soap. Doesn't work very fast, but
it works.

For koi ponds, something like malathion or Dylox will kill the wasps,
but also not quickly. Those are not very toxic to
fish. Even rotenone (commonly used to kill fish) is not very toxic to
fish, takes a lot to kill them.

You might try orthene, smells bad, but not very toxic to fish, also
not fast at killing wasps.

Pyrethroids work very fast, are not very toxic to mammals, do not
persist in the environment, and are fairly "safe" as such
things go, just not for fish.

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

Yes, I would dig out the contaminated dirt.




On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:50:24 GMT, "Anne Lurie"
wrote:

I'm glad to hear that the fish-killing problem has been identified.

However, IMHO, the next step would be to deal with the
pesticide-contaminated soil.

Stepping down from my soap box for tonight,

[sorry, it's been a tough week for me -- started with blaster worm & ended
with blackout-stranded relatives I was unable to reach because of blackout,
etc.]

G'night all,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"Timothy Tom" wrote in message
. com...
EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

MatO,

You are correct, according to Russo and Thurston in a 1991 study found that
KOI can sustain ammonia levels of 2.2 ppm for 96 hours before dying. Of
course, this does not mean that they won't be affected in some ways with
ammonia burns etc. and that some weaker fish may die sooner, but, for the
most part health fish can live in the environment for this short period.

Also, it should be considered that ammonia is very lethal and should be
maintained below .5ppm. Ammonia is more lethal at high pH while Nitrites
are more lethal a lower pH.

As far as I can see by the thread Tim's Ammonia is no where near lethal
levels.

Tom L.L.
"MattO" wrote in message
...

"john rutz" wrote in message
...
Timothy Tom wrote:
TEST RESULTS of Deadly Pond Water:

O.K. I tested the pond water which killed a goldfish within two hours.
Please note that this water has been sitting there for over 48 hours,
so it is not exactly the same water that killed the fish.

The pH measured at 7.7 using Tetra test kit, the nitrate measured at
perhaps 1 PPM (color between zero and the 2 PPM color on the color
scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at between
.25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.


-- that amount of amonia is deadly if i remember correctley

John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico


Tom,
I don't buy the ammonia theory.
0.25 -0.5 ppm ammonia is not that severe, certainly not bad enought to
kill
so quickly.
If it were no fish would ever survive a cycle, right?
Temp & pH factor into toxicity of ammonia, but extrapolating from table in
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling...w-much-ammonia
pH of 7.7, even at 83F, 0.5 ppm is not off the chart, is it?
Count me in the leaching septic or fertilizers camp
~ MattO

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

dont you have a way to check for chlorine?

(Timothy Tom) wrote:

Well right on schedule, within two hours the fish is just about dead.
Something new that I have noticed is that the auto-refill appears to
never shut off. My LAST POSSIBLE explanation is that the auto-refill
continues to allow chlorinated water to flow into the pond which kills
the fish within a couple of hours. This last time, I am going to
empty the pond, and refill it partially and then turn the auto-refill
system off.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

tdtom30,
I just now noticed the numeral at the end of
your name. Since most of my far flung extended family use the same number I'm
wondering if you aren't one of us?
If this doesn't make any sense then you probably aren't ;-)


k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

Tom,
Thanks, but to clarify, and to any impressionable newbies still following
this thread, let me add that like Tom, I do not condone or recommend
exposing any fish to any measurable levels of ammonia. In small levels it
harms and compromises fish, in higher levels it just kills. And IMHO
nitrites last longer and are even worse. In the presence of any measurable
ammonia or nitrite I will always recommend large, repeated water changes
until levels are at lowest measurable reading on the test kit. Yes that may
prolong the cycle - so what - the fish live.

And I can't make any claim of actually understanding the science behind
temp/pH/ammonia toxicity relationship. I just felt the need to respond to
several people who had posted things like "that amount of ammonia is deadly
". So in pointing Timothy Tom to the reference on theKrib suggesting that
the levels reported were not high enough to explain the repeated sudden
deaths, I should have added - Slow torturous horrible death - yes
probably - just not sudden death.
~ MattO

"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
MatO,

You are correct, according to Russo and Thurston in a 1991 study found
that
KOI can sustain ammonia levels of 2.2 ppm for 96 hours before dying. Of
course, this does not mean that they won't be affected in some ways with
ammonia burns etc. and that some weaker fish may die sooner, but, for the
most part health fish can live in the environment for this short period.

Also, it should be considered that ammonia is very lethal and should be
maintained below .5ppm. Ammonia is more lethal at high pH while Nitrites
are more lethal a lower pH.

As far as I can see by the thread Tim's Ammonia is no where near lethal
levels.

Tom L.L.
"MattO" wrote in message
...

"john rutz" wrote in message
...
Timothy Tom wrote:
TEST RESULTS of Deadly Pond Water:

O.K. I tested the pond water which killed a goldfish within two
hours.
Please note that this water has been sitting there for over 48
hours,
so it is not exactly the same water that killed the fish.

The pH measured at 7.7 using Tetra test kit, the nitrate measured
at
perhaps 1 PPM (color between zero and the 2 PPM color on the color
scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at
between
.25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.


-- that amount of amonia is deadly if i remember correctley

John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico


Tom,
I don't buy the ammonia theory.
0.25 -0.5 ppm ammonia is not that severe, certainly not bad enought to
kill
so quickly.
If it were no fish would ever survive a cycle, right?
Temp & pH factor into toxicity of ammonia, but extrapolating from table
in
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling...w-much-ammonia
pH of 7.7, even at 83F, 0.5 ppm is not off the chart, is it?
Count me in the leaching septic or fertilizers camp
~ MattO

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:57:37 GMT, "MattO" wrote:

And IMHO nitrites last longer and are even worse. In the presence of any measurable
ammonia or nitrite I will always recommend large, repeated water changes
until levels are at lowest measurable reading on the test kit. Yes that may
prolong the cycle - so what - the fish live.

From the KHA program we learned that in cases of ammonia, doing water
changes could make things worst. This surprised me to, but as you mention:

And I can't make any claim of actually understanding the science behind
temp/pH/ammonia toxicity relationship.

This is where people get in trouble with ammonia showing on the test and
doing a water change. Take the pond that has had a pH crash, bio-filtration
stops as the bio-bugs don't like that low pH either, thus the ammonia
reading goes up. The ammonia though isn't toxic, or is less so, the lower
the pH. So if you do a large water change, upping that pH suddenly the
ammonia becomes toxic. Better is to detox the ammonia with a product like
Amquel or similar. Nitrite can be overcome with salt in the pond. (I do
believe there is a formula regarding how much salt to nitrite reading, I
think someone even posted that here not too long ago.) Anyway, doing these
things (addition of amquel & salt) allows for the water change and also
does not slow the cycle, if that is the reason for the spikes. If it's a pH
crash, then we do a KH check and fit that too. :o) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

In article ,
(Timothy Tom) writes:

There is not a whole lot else to test now.


how is the pond edged? could a plant (weed) be leaching something into the
water? how about spraying for mosquitoes. having lived in TX for 20 years
they sprayed at night. could it be that spray has settled on edging? plants
in the pond?

BTW my fish had no problems with 85 degree water, but I would add a spitted to
help keep it cooler, never lost a fish.

Just a few more thoughts.
Karen
Zone 5
Ashland, OH
http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
My Art Studio at
http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K....M.Studios.html
for email remove the extra extention

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
s.com...
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:57:37 GMT, "MattO"
wrote:

And IMHO nitrites last longer and are even worse. In the presence of any
measurable
ammonia or nitrite I will always recommend large, repeated water changes
until levels are at lowest measurable reading on the test kit. Yes that
may
prolong the cycle - so what - the fish live.

From the KHA program we learned that in cases of ammonia, doing water
changes could make things worst. This surprised me to, but as you mention:

And I can't make any claim of actually understanding the science behind
temp/pH/ammonia toxicity relationship.

This is where people get in trouble with ammonia showing on the test and
doing a water change. Take the pond that has had a pH crash,
bio-filtration
stops as the bio-bugs don't like that low pH either, thus the ammonia
reading goes up. The ammonia though isn't toxic, or is less so, the lower
the pH. So if you do a large water change, upping that pH suddenly the
ammonia becomes toxic. Better is to detox the ammonia with a product like
Amquel or similar. Nitrite can be overcome with salt in the pond. (I do
believe there is a formula regarding how much salt to nitrite reading, I
think someone even posted that here not too long ago.) Anyway, doing these
things (addition of amquel & salt) allows for the water change and also
does not slow the cycle, if that is the reason for the spikes. If it's a
pH
crash, then we do a KH check and fit that too. :o) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Jan,
Interesting info - thanks
As an indoor goldfishkeeper admittedly out of my depth out in the pond, I
plea no contest to over-generalization always recommend massive water
changes to manage ammonia. This thread is crossposted to both groups, & I
lurk out of RAFG... I may be in to deep. I speak only from my own experience
with indoor tanks and fancy goldfish.

Your advice (relying on ammo-lock type products) makes good sense during
ammonia phase of cycle but in my (indoor) experience, (apparently gifted
with suitable pH) ammonia phase is tolerable with big WCs. Its the nitrite
phase that takes the most time & the greater toll on the fish. IME nitrite
spike is so fast, so big and so long only huge water changes prevent certain
death. In your experience will salt alone detox high levels of nitrite? Is
nitrite still measurable after salt treatment (like nessler & salicylate
ammonia test is after ammo-lock) and at what levels would you recommend
water change?
~ MattO

Fish pond water kills all fish within 24 hours.
 

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:39:16 GMT, "MattO" wrote:

Jan,
Interesting info - thanks
As an indoor goldfishkeeper admittedly out of my depth out in the pond, I
plea no contest to over-generalization always recommend massive water
changes to manage ammonia. This thread is crossposted to both groups, & I
lurk out of RAFG... I may be in to deep. I speak only from my own experience
with indoor tanks and fancy goldfish.

Your advice (relying on ammo-lock type products) makes good sense during
ammonia phase of cycle but in my (indoor) experience, (apparently gifted
with suitable pH) ammonia phase is tolerable with big WCs. Its the nitrite
phase that takes the most time & the greater toll on the fish. IME nitrite
spike is so fast, so big and so long only huge water changes prevent certain
death. In your experience will salt alone detox high levels of nitrite?

Well, while cycling my Q-tank my nitrite was off the test kit chart and I
had salt over 0.3%, the fish survived, but I'm not even sure that was
enough salt. Hopefully the person who showed nitrite to salt ratio chart
will post that again.

Regarding aquariums though, having a few goldfish ones myself, I agree it
seems to be easier to do WCs, but I had one stubborn tank that would not
cycle after I brought the fish back from a show, and it wasn't till someone
here said to stop the daily WCs and use my pond Amquel, took only a couple
of days after that to see marked improvement in the cycle.

Even in aquariums you can get in trouble with the ammonia/pH situation. In
a case of the right hand (me) forgetting what the left hand did (my son).
My son takes care of the filters, and he cleaned one just a day or two
before I did my routine WCs on all the tanks. Because my KH seems to
decrease after several WCs I usually add a little baking soda and this
happened to be the WC when it was needed. Next morning, dead fish in that
tank. He had cleaned the filter, I had ammonia showing without knowing it,
but the low pH made it non-toxic till I: 1) did the WC and 2) increased the
pH even more with baking soda. I now pay more attention to what filter-boy
does.

nitrite still measurable after salt treatment

Yes.

and at what levels would you recommend
water change? ~ MattO

Probably at 1ppm and up. The nitrite cycle doesn't take near as long as the
ammonia one, so I've experienced. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website