well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to KHV 6 weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a PIA.. luckily I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,, fish IN the pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to be doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone else have any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)

Muffin, whether or not goldfish can be carriers is an "unknown" at this
time. It's an accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies off in the
pond after several days. But you still had goldfish, so it's "iffy". It's
also unproven as to whether or not the "heat cured" fish remain carriers.
It's kinda like when you got chickenpox as a kid: you got over it - but you
are 70% more likely to develop shingles as an adult (same stuff/different
place), and the older you get (70's, 80's, etc.), the likelihood increases.
Your new fish may be OK, or they may get sick from the goldies if the
goldies are "shedding" the virus without getting sick themselves (think
Typhoid Mary). In your position, I'd watch my "sacrificial" koi very
carefully and keep the "good" koi in isolation, away from any potential
problem until I was reasonably sure that that all was well in the pond.

Was KHV an official diagnosis? Where are you located?

Lee


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to KHV 6
weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a PIA.. luckily
I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,, fish IN the
pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to be doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone else have any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)

the dealer, in Florida, had his stock checked at some university.. it was
confirmed.( he got a bad shipment)
(I'm in Ohio)

I have been also told you need to disinfect everything with chlorine,, which
is something I cannot do at this time.

I am soooo confused. thought of losing another $200 worth of fish does
please me.

I can segregate a few fish, but even that will not stop them dying when I
FINALLY do put them in the pond, so that doesn't seem like that is
worthwhile to do.
guess DO it, & see what comes,,, then decide if keeping the goldfish is
worth it, of chuck every thing & start over..


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Muffin, whether or not goldfish can be carriers is an "unknown" at this
time. It's an accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies off in
the
pond after several days. But you still had goldfish, so it's "iffy". It's
also unproven as to whether or not the "heat cured" fish remain carriers.
It's kinda like when you got chickenpox as a kid: you got over it - but
you
are 70% more likely to develop shingles as an adult (same stuff/different
place), and the older you get (70's, 80's, etc.), the likelihood
increases.
Your new fish may be OK, or they may get sick from the goldies if the
goldies are "shedding" the virus without getting sick themselves (think
Typhoid Mary). In your position, I'd watch my "sacrificial" koi very
carefully and keep the "good" koi in isolation, away from any potential
problem until I was reasonably sure that that all was well in the pond.

Was KHV an official diagnosis? Where are you located?

Lee


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to KHV 6
weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a PIA..
luckily
I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,, fish IN the
pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to be doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone else have
any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)

The stores/breeders *do* disinfect with chlorine - *EVERYthing* that comes
in contact with the infected fish, including nets. Plants are suspect.
Goldies and other pond fish are suspect, and you can't disinfect because of
them. Two alternatives come to mind: a) build another pond, koi only; or b)
skip koi and do goldies only. The goldies are nicer for a watergarden (they
don't tear up plants like koi do!). This disease is one of the primary
reasons why the new mantra is "quarantine - quarantine - quarantine".

Good luck, Muffin.

Lee
"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
the dealer, in Florida, had his stock checked at some university.. it was
confirmed.( he got a bad shipment)
(I'm in Ohio)

I have been also told you need to disinfect everything with chlorine,,
which
is something I cannot do at this time.

I am soooo confused. thought of losing another $200 worth of fish does
please me.

I can segregate a few fish, but even that will not stop them dying when I
FINALLY do put them in the pond, so that doesn't seem like that is
worthwhile to do.
guess DO it, & see what comes,,, then decide if keeping the goldfish is
worth it, of chuck every thing & start over..


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Muffin, whether or not goldfish can be carriers is an "unknown" at this
time. It's an accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies off in
the
pond after several days. But you still had goldfish, so it's "iffy".
It's
also unproven as to whether or not the "heat cured" fish remain
carriers.
It's kinda like when you got chickenpox as a kid: you got over it - but
you
are 70% more likely to develop shingles as an adult (same
stuff/different
place), and the older you get (70's, 80's, etc.), the likelihood
increases.
Your new fish may be OK, or they may get sick from the goldies if the
goldies are "shedding" the virus without getting sick themselves (think
Typhoid Mary). In your position, I'd watch my "sacrificial" koi very
carefully and keep the "good" koi in isolation, away from any potential
problem until I was reasonably sure that that all was well in the pond.

Was KHV an official diagnosis? Where are you located?

Lee


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to KHV 6
weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a PIA..
luckily
I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,, fish IN
the
pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to be doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone else have
any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)

Folks,

Where is the research that says the Goldfish carry the virus. All research
that I have read said that it does not affect the goldfish in any way and
that they do not carry the disease. Sounds like someone is looking for an
escape goat. Nothing like blaming it on the goldfish. The research that I
read and the researcher I talked about said that the herpes virus will not
live outside the host.

Also muffin, if you are worried about the pond put off getting your new fish
until next spring, because even inside the fish the KHV will not live in
cold water. It dies when the temps go below 50.

I guess I will have to go to KOIVet and raise hell. Nothing like blaming
crap on the goldfish.

Tom L.L.
==========================
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The stores/breeders *do* disinfect with chlorine - *EVERYthing* that comes
in contact with the infected fish, including nets. Plants are suspect.
Goldies and other pond fish are suspect, and you can't disinfect because
of
them. Two alternatives come to mind: a) build another pond, koi only; or
b)
skip koi and do goldies only. The goldies are nicer for a watergarden
(they
don't tear up plants like koi do!). This disease is one of the primary
reasons why the new mantra is "quarantine - quarantine - quarantine".

Good luck, Muffin.

Lee
"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
the dealer, in Florida, had his stock checked at some university.. it
was
confirmed.( he got a bad shipment)
(I'm in Ohio)

I have been also told you need to disinfect everything with chlorine,,
which
is something I cannot do at this time.

I am soooo confused. thought of losing another $200 worth of fish does
please me.

I can segregate a few fish, but even that will not stop them dying when
I
FINALLY do put them in the pond, so that doesn't seem like that is
worthwhile to do.
guess DO it, & see what comes,,, then decide if keeping the goldfish is
worth it, of chuck every thing & start over..


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Muffin, whether or not goldfish can be carriers is an "unknown" at
this
time. It's an accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies off
in
the
pond after several days. But you still had goldfish, so it's "iffy".
It's
also unproven as to whether or not the "heat cured" fish remain
carriers.
It's kinda like when you got chickenpox as a kid: you got over it -
but
you
are 70% more likely to develop shingles as an adult (same
stuff/different
place), and the older you get (70's, 80's, etc.), the likelihood
increases.
Your new fish may be OK, or they may get sick from the goldies if the
goldies are "shedding" the virus without getting sick themselves
(think
Typhoid Mary). In your position, I'd watch my "sacrificial" koi very
carefully and keep the "good" koi in isolation, away from any
potential
problem until I was reasonably sure that that all was well in the
pond.

Was KHV an official diagnosis? Where are you located?

Lee


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to KHV
6
weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a PIA..
luckily
I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,, fish IN
the
pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to be
doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone else
have
any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)

I wasn't blaming goldies, for Pete's sake! And I did say that it was an
accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies off in a few days. To my
knowledge, the virus affects only koi - that's why it's called Koi Herpes
Virus (actually, the Israelis now want the name changed, as they don't think
it's a herpes virus any more, but that's a different subject). Goldies are
not affected by it, and to the best of my knowledge - are not carriers of
it. In fact, that's one of the best ways to narrow down the diagnosis field:
the koi die, the goldies don't.

For argument's sake, however: something just horribly killed all the koi in
your pond, but left other fish surviving. Would you jump to add more koi, or
would you hedge your bets that just MAYBE the other fish - while
unaffected - may/could be carriers? Would you just figure on waiting 72
hours before repopulating your pond, because after all, the virus is DEAD
now - or perhaps you would add a few "canaries" to find out if they thrived
or died before you added valued stock? Remember now that entire commercial
facilities have been depopulated (a euphimism if I ever heard one) and
scrubbed with chlorine several times before reintroducing stock (overkill
perhaps, but what is being done nonetheless). Would it really be paranoia to
at least *suspect* that maybe some of the virus could be hiding in your
plants, rockwork, or whatevers? If the possibility didn't exist, why don't
the commerical facilities just wait a week or so?



I (obviously) have not read EVERY word on the subject, but I try to read as
much as I can. I have not read anything that *definitively* excludes the
*possibility* of carrier status benign to the goldies as most of the studies
have been directed at the affected fish: koi (and most of my reading is
directed at koi as I don't have any goldies). If you have read such a
study - and I say this without ANY rancor - I would like to read it so I can
eliminate future cautionary statements from any recommendations I may make.
When I make errors, I prefer caution to recklessness. I am a hobbyist, not
an aquaculturist. And I am always learning.



Lee





"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Folks,

Where is the research that says the Goldfish carry the virus. All
research
that I have read said that it does not affect the goldfish in any way and
that they do not carry the disease. Sounds like someone is looking for an
escape goat. Nothing like blaming it on the goldfish. The research that
I
read and the researcher I talked about said that the herpes virus will not
live outside the host.

Also muffin, if you are worried about the pond put off getting your new
fish
until next spring, because even inside the fish the KHV will not live in
cold water. It dies when the temps go below 50.

I guess I will have to go to KOIVet and raise hell. Nothing like blaming
crap on the goldfish.

Tom L.L.
==========================
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The stores/breeders *do* disinfect with chlorine - *EVERYthing* that
comes
in contact with the infected fish, including nets. Plants are suspect.
Goldies and other pond fish are suspect, and you can't disinfect because
of
them. Two alternatives come to mind: a) build another pond, koi only; or
b)
skip koi and do goldies only. The goldies are nicer for a watergarden
(they
don't tear up plants like koi do!). This disease is one of the primary
reasons why the new mantra is "quarantine - quarantine - quarantine".

Good luck, Muffin.

Lee
"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
the dealer, in Florida, had his stock checked at some university.. it
was
confirmed.( he got a bad shipment)
(I'm in Ohio)

I have been also told you need to disinfect everything with chlorine,,
which
is something I cannot do at this time.

I am soooo confused. thought of losing another $200 worth of fish
does
please me.

I can segregate a few fish, but even that will not stop them dying
when
I
FINALLY do put them in the pond, so that doesn't seem like that is
worthwhile to do.
guess DO it, & see what comes,,, then decide if keeping the goldfish
is
worth it, of chuck every thing & start over..


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Muffin, whether or not goldfish can be carriers is an "unknown" at
this
time. It's an accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies
off
in
the
pond after several days. But you still had goldfish, so it's "iffy".
It's
also unproven as to whether or not the "heat cured" fish remain
carriers.
It's kinda like when you got chickenpox as a kid: you got over it -
but
you
are 70% more likely to develop shingles as an adult (same
stuff/different
place), and the older you get (70's, 80's, etc.), the likelihood
increases.
Your new fish may be OK, or they may get sick from the goldies if
the
goldies are "shedding" the virus without getting sick themselves
(think
Typhoid Mary). In your position, I'd watch my "sacrificial" koi
very
carefully and keep the "good" koi in isolation, away from any
potential
problem until I was reasonably sure that that all was well in the
pond.

Was KHV an official diagnosis? Where are you located?

Lee


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to
KHV
6
weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a PIA..
luckily
I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,, fish
IN
the
pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to be
doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone else
have
any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)

I'm in agreement with you Lee, the virus surely must live outside the host,
otherwise how is it transmitted between them? Supposedly we had one
backyard dealer do her personal pond in by using the same net from Q-tank
to established pond without sterilizing it.

Regarding koivet and goldfish, it has been reported to the KHA's that this
was a misprint.

Perhaps Tom can enlighten us, because my understanding is at lower temps
the virus goes dormant in the fish. Why it is suggested to allow the Q-tank
to get up in the 70s a couple of weeks w/canary koi, before pronouncing the
all clear? ~ jan

On 18 Sep 2003 11:13:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" wrote:

I wasn't blaming goldies, for Pete's sake! And I did say that it was an
accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies off in a few days. To my
knowledge, the virus affects only koi - that's why it's called Koi Herpes
Virus (actually, the Israelis now want the name changed, as they don't think
it's a herpes virus any more, but that's a different subject). Goldies are
not affected by it, and to the best of my knowledge - are not carriers of
it. In fact, that's one of the best ways to narrow down the diagnosis field:
the koi die, the goldies don't.

For argument's sake, however: something just horribly killed all the koi in
your pond, but left other fish surviving. Would you jump to add more koi, or
would you hedge your bets that just MAYBE the other fish - while
unaffected - may/could be carriers? Would you just figure on waiting 72
hours before repopulating your pond, because after all, the virus is DEAD
now - or perhaps you would add a few "canaries" to find out if they thrived
or died before you added valued stock? Remember now that entire commercial
facilities have been depopulated (a euphimism if I ever heard one) and
scrubbed with chlorine several times before reintroducing stock (overkill
perhaps, but what is being done nonetheless). Would it really be paranoia to
at least *suspect* that maybe some of the virus could be hiding in your
plants, rockwork, or whatevers? If the possibility didn't exist, why don't
the commerical facilities just wait a week or so?



I (obviously) have not read EVERY word on the subject, but I try to read as
much as I can. I have not read anything that *definitively* excludes the
*possibility* of carrier status benign to the goldies as most of the studies
have been directed at the affected fish: koi (and most of my reading is
directed at koi as I don't have any goldies). If you have read such a
study - and I say this without ANY rancor - I would like to read it so I can
eliminate future cautionary statements from any recommendations I may make.
When I make errors, I prefer caution to recklessness. I am a hobbyist, not
an aquaculturist. And I am always learning.



Lee





"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Folks,

Where is the research that says the Goldfish carry the virus. All
research
that I have read said that it does not affect the goldfish in any way and
that they do not carry the disease. Sounds like someone is looking for an
escape goat. Nothing like blaming it on the goldfish. The research that
I
read and the researcher I talked about said that the herpes virus will not
live outside the host.

Also muffin, if you are worried about the pond put off getting your new
fish
until next spring, because even inside the fish the KHV will not live in
cold water. It dies when the temps go below 50.

I guess I will have to go to KOIVet and raise hell. Nothing like blaming
crap on the goldfish.

Tom L.L.
==========================
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The stores/breeders *do* disinfect with chlorine - *EVERYthing* that
comes
in contact with the infected fish, including nets. Plants are suspect.
Goldies and other pond fish are suspect, and you can't disinfect because
of
them. Two alternatives come to mind: a) build another pond, koi only; or
b)
skip koi and do goldies only. The goldies are nicer for a watergarden
(they
don't tear up plants like koi do!). This disease is one of the primary
reasons why the new mantra is "quarantine - quarantine - quarantine".

Good luck, Muffin.

Lee
"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
the dealer, in Florida, had his stock checked at some university.. it
was
confirmed.( he got a bad shipment)
(I'm in Ohio)

I have been also told you need to disinfect everything with chlorine,,
which
is something I cannot do at this time.

I am soooo confused. thought of losing another $200 worth of fish
does
please me.

I can segregate a few fish, but even that will not stop them dying
when
I
FINALLY do put them in the pond, so that doesn't seem like that is
worthwhile to do.
guess DO it, & see what comes,,, then decide if keeping the goldfish
is
worth it, of chuck every thing & start over..


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Muffin, whether or not goldfish can be carriers is an "unknown" at
this
time. It's an accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies
off
in
the
pond after several days. But you still had goldfish, so it's "iffy".
It's
also unproven as to whether or not the "heat cured" fish remain
carriers.
It's kinda like when you got chickenpox as a kid: you got over it -
but
you
are 70% more likely to develop shingles as an adult (same
stuff/different
place), and the older you get (70's, 80's, etc.), the likelihood
increases.
Your new fish may be OK, or they may get sick from the goldies if
the
goldies are "shedding" the virus without getting sick themselves
(think
Typhoid Mary). In your position, I'd watch my "sacrificial" koi
very
carefully and keep the "good" koi in isolation, away from any
potential
problem until I was reasonably sure that that all was well in the
pond.

Was KHV an official diagnosis? Where are you located?

Lee


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to
KHV
6
weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a PIA..
luckily
I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,, fish
IN
the
pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to be
doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone else
have
any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)













See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

I'm in agreement with you Lee, the virus surely must live outside the host,
otherwise how is it transmitted between them? Supposedly we had one
backyard dealer do her personal pond in by using the same net from Q-tank
to established pond without sterilizing it.

Regarding koivet and goldfish, it has been reported to the KHA's that this
was a misprint.

Perhaps Tom can enlighten us, because my understanding is at lower temps
the virus goes dormant in the fish. Why it is suggested to allow the Q-tank
to get up in the 70s a couple of weeks w/canary koi, before pronouncing the
all clear? ~ jan

On 18 Sep 2003 11:13:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" wrote:

I wasn't blaming goldies, for Pete's sake! And I did say that it was an
accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies off in a few days. To my
knowledge, the virus affects only koi - that's why it's called Koi Herpes
Virus (actually, the Israelis now want the name changed, as they don't think
it's a herpes virus any more, but that's a different subject). Goldies are
not affected by it, and to the best of my knowledge - are not carriers of
it. In fact, that's one of the best ways to narrow down the diagnosis field:
the koi die, the goldies don't.

For argument's sake, however: something just horribly killed all the koi in
your pond, but left other fish surviving. Would you jump to add more koi, or
would you hedge your bets that just MAYBE the other fish - while
unaffected - may/could be carriers? Would you just figure on waiting 72
hours before repopulating your pond, because after all, the virus is DEAD
now - or perhaps you would add a few "canaries" to find out if they thrived
or died before you added valued stock? Remember now that entire commercial
facilities have been depopulated (a euphimism if I ever heard one) and
scrubbed with chlorine several times before reintroducing stock (overkill
perhaps, but what is being done nonetheless). Would it really be paranoia to
at least *suspect* that maybe some of the virus could be hiding in your
plants, rockwork, or whatevers? If the possibility didn't exist, why don't
the commerical facilities just wait a week or so?



I (obviously) have not read EVERY word on the subject, but I try to read as
much as I can. I have not read anything that *definitively* excludes the
*possibility* of carrier status benign to the goldies as most of the studies
have been directed at the affected fish: koi (and most of my reading is
directed at koi as I don't have any goldies). If you have read such a
study - and I say this without ANY rancor - I would like to read it so I can
eliminate future cautionary statements from any recommendations I may make.
When I make errors, I prefer caution to recklessness. I am a hobbyist, not
an aquaculturist. And I am always learning.



Lee





"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Folks,

Where is the research that says the Goldfish carry the virus. All
research
that I have read said that it does not affect the goldfish in any way and
that they do not carry the disease. Sounds like someone is looking for an
escape goat. Nothing like blaming it on the goldfish. The research that
I
read and the researcher I talked about said that the herpes virus will not
live outside the host.

Also muffin, if you are worried about the pond put off getting your new
fish
until next spring, because even inside the fish the KHV will not live in
cold water. It dies when the temps go below 50.

I guess I will have to go to KOIVet and raise hell. Nothing like blaming
crap on the goldfish.

Tom L.L.
==========================
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The stores/breeders *do* disinfect with chlorine - *EVERYthing* that
comes
in contact with the infected fish, including nets. Plants are suspect.
Goldies and other pond fish are suspect, and you can't disinfect because
of
them. Two alternatives come to mind: a) build another pond, koi only; or
b)
skip koi and do goldies only. The goldies are nicer for a watergarden
(they
don't tear up plants like koi do!). This disease is one of the primary
reasons why the new mantra is "quarantine - quarantine - quarantine".

Good luck, Muffin.

Lee
"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
the dealer, in Florida, had his stock checked at some university.. it
was
confirmed.( he got a bad shipment)
(I'm in Ohio)

I have been also told you need to disinfect everything with chlorine,,
which
is something I cannot do at this time.

I am soooo confused. thought of losing another $200 worth of fish
does
please me.

I can segregate a few fish, but even that will not stop them dying
when
I
FINALLY do put them in the pond, so that doesn't seem like that is
worthwhile to do.
guess DO it, & see what comes,,, then decide if keeping the goldfish
is
worth it, of chuck every thing & start over..


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Muffin, whether or not goldfish can be carriers is an "unknown" at
this
time. It's an accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies
off
in
the
pond after several days. But you still had goldfish, so it's "iffy".
It's
also unproven as to whether or not the "heat cured" fish remain
carriers.
It's kinda like when you got chickenpox as a kid: you got over it -
but
you
are 70% more likely to develop shingles as an adult (same
stuff/different
place), and the older you get (70's, 80's, etc.), the likelihood
increases.
Your new fish may be OK, or they may get sick from the goldies if
the
goldies are "shedding" the virus without getting sick themselves
(think
Typhoid Mary). In your position, I'd watch my "sacrificial" koi
very
carefully and keep the "good" koi in isolation, away from any
potential
problem until I was reasonably sure that that all was well in the
pond.

Was KHV an official diagnosis? Where are you located?

Lee


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to
KHV
6
weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a PIA..
luckily
I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,, fish
IN
the
pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to be
doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone else
have
any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)













See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

I'm in agreement with you Lee, the virus surely must live outside the host,
otherwise how is it transmitted between them? Supposedly we had one
backyard dealer do her personal pond in by using the same net from Q-tank
to established pond without sterilizing it.

Regarding koivet and goldfish, it has been reported to the KHA's that this
was a misprint.

Perhaps Tom can enlighten us, because my understanding is at lower temps
the virus goes dormant in the fish. Why it is suggested to allow the Q-tank
to get up in the 70s a couple of weeks w/canary koi, before pronouncing the
all clear? ~ jan

On 18 Sep 2003 11:13:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" wrote:

I wasn't blaming goldies, for Pete's sake! And I did say that it was an
accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies off in a few days. To my
knowledge, the virus affects only koi - that's why it's called Koi Herpes
Virus (actually, the Israelis now want the name changed, as they don't think
it's a herpes virus any more, but that's a different subject). Goldies are
not affected by it, and to the best of my knowledge - are not carriers of
it. In fact, that's one of the best ways to narrow down the diagnosis field:
the koi die, the goldies don't.

For argument's sake, however: something just horribly killed all the koi in
your pond, but left other fish surviving. Would you jump to add more koi, or
would you hedge your bets that just MAYBE the other fish - while
unaffected - may/could be carriers? Would you just figure on waiting 72
hours before repopulating your pond, because after all, the virus is DEAD
now - or perhaps you would add a few "canaries" to find out if they thrived
or died before you added valued stock? Remember now that entire commercial
facilities have been depopulated (a euphimism if I ever heard one) and
scrubbed with chlorine several times before reintroducing stock (overkill
perhaps, but what is being done nonetheless). Would it really be paranoia to
at least *suspect* that maybe some of the virus could be hiding in your
plants, rockwork, or whatevers? If the possibility didn't exist, why don't
the commerical facilities just wait a week or so?



I (obviously) have not read EVERY word on the subject, but I try to read as
much as I can. I have not read anything that *definitively* excludes the
*possibility* of carrier status benign to the goldies as most of the studies
have been directed at the affected fish: koi (and most of my reading is
directed at koi as I don't have any goldies). If you have read such a
study - and I say this without ANY rancor - I would like to read it so I can
eliminate future cautionary statements from any recommendations I may make.
When I make errors, I prefer caution to recklessness. I am a hobbyist, not
an aquaculturist. And I am always learning.



Lee





"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Folks,

Where is the research that says the Goldfish carry the virus. All
research
that I have read said that it does not affect the goldfish in any way and
that they do not carry the disease. Sounds like someone is looking for an
escape goat. Nothing like blaming it on the goldfish. The research that
I
read and the researcher I talked about said that the herpes virus will not
live outside the host.

Also muffin, if you are worried about the pond put off getting your new
fish
until next spring, because even inside the fish the KHV will not live in
cold water. It dies when the temps go below 50.

I guess I will have to go to KOIVet and raise hell. Nothing like blaming
crap on the goldfish.

Tom L.L.
==========================
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The stores/breeders *do* disinfect with chlorine - *EVERYthing* that
comes
in contact with the infected fish, including nets. Plants are suspect.
Goldies and other pond fish are suspect, and you can't disinfect because
of
them. Two alternatives come to mind: a) build another pond, koi only; or
b)
skip koi and do goldies only. The goldies are nicer for a watergarden
(they
don't tear up plants like koi do!). This disease is one of the primary
reasons why the new mantra is "quarantine - quarantine - quarantine".

Good luck, Muffin.

Lee
"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
the dealer, in Florida, had his stock checked at some university.. it
was
confirmed.( he got a bad shipment)
(I'm in Ohio)

I have been also told you need to disinfect everything with chlorine,,
which
is something I cannot do at this time.

I am soooo confused. thought of losing another $200 worth of fish
does
please me.

I can segregate a few fish, but even that will not stop them dying
when
I
FINALLY do put them in the pond, so that doesn't seem like that is
worthwhile to do.
guess DO it, & see what comes,,, then decide if keeping the goldfish
is
worth it, of chuck every thing & start over..


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Muffin, whether or not goldfish can be carriers is an "unknown" at
this
time. It's an accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies
off
in
the
pond after several days. But you still had goldfish, so it's "iffy".
It's
also unproven as to whether or not the "heat cured" fish remain
carriers.
It's kinda like when you got chickenpox as a kid: you got over it -
but
you
are 70% more likely to develop shingles as an adult (same
stuff/different
place), and the older you get (70's, 80's, etc.), the likelihood
increases.
Your new fish may be OK, or they may get sick from the goldies if
the
goldies are "shedding" the virus without getting sick themselves
(think
Typhoid Mary). In your position, I'd watch my "sacrificial" koi
very
carefully and keep the "good" koi in isolation, away from any
potential
problem until I was reasonably sure that that all was well in the
pond.

Was KHV an official diagnosis? Where are you located?

Lee


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to
KHV
6
weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a PIA..
luckily
I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,, fish
IN
the
pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to be
doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone else
have
any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)













See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Lee and Jan,

Lee, if you will re-read my message I said I would go to KOIvet and raise
hell. I didn't say anything about you. You just reported the information.
I was not blaming you.

I will have to find the article again. I was just thinking about KHV last
week and wondering if it was still around. The article was run when the
outbreaks first occurred. It was found that Goldfish were not affected at
all and the virus did not host in the Goldfish. The researchers even
injected the virus into the Goldfish and nothing happened. I spoke to the
researcher in Arkansas on the phone, who was working with another researcher
in California who substantiated the Goldfish information. You must realize
by the time I read the article with publishing timetables a lot of time had
past. But the researcher in Arkansas had closed down for the Summer break
and froze all his specimens to work on them latter in the Fall when school
started again. When he came back in the fall he tried to revive them and
all the specimens were dead. He thought he had done something wrong or
something was done to the lab while he was away, so he contacted the
researcher in California who froze some specimens and sent them to him via
courier. Needless to say, all the specimens were dead, and this is when
they found out that lower temperatures kill the virus.

Now about the herpes viruses; Herpes viruses are not transmitted via the
water and they do not stay alive outside of the host, they are transmitted
from fish to fish. Carp pox, which is not really a pox, but a herpes virus
is spread by fish rubbing against one another. You already have found out
that research on KHV did show that the fish could have it for awhile before
it raises it ugly head to kill the fish in a very short time. This is one
of the main reasons you are now suppose to quarantine your fish for a month.
Years ago it was only 2 weeks, but with KHV around it could take a month for
the disease to show up in your new fish and once it is spread to your other
fish, because you didn't quarantine them, they start dying in about 3 week
intervals.

I will try looking tomorrow. I am the only one at the Archive listing the
locations of the books being brought out and I am about 10,000 behind. My
co-worker just hired two students and they have been bringing out books
almost every single day. I will give it a shot though and see what I can
come up with.

Bye for now, it is getting late.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------------------
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I'm in agreement with you Lee, the virus surely must live outside the
host,
otherwise how is it transmitted between them? Supposedly we had one
backyard dealer do her personal pond in by using the same net from Q-tank
to established pond without sterilizing it.

Regarding koivet and goldfish, it has been reported to the KHA's that this
was a misprint.

Perhaps Tom can enlighten us, because my understanding is at lower temps
the virus goes dormant in the fish. Why it is suggested to allow the
Q-tank
to get up in the 70s a couple of weeks w/canary koi, before pronouncing
the
all clear? ~ jan

On 18 Sep 2003 11:13:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" wrote:

I wasn't blaming goldies, for Pete's sake! And I did say that it was an
accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies off in a few days. To
my
knowledge, the virus affects only koi - that's why it's called Koi Herpes
Virus (actually, the Israelis now want the name changed, as they don't
think
it's a herpes virus any more, but that's a different subject). Goldies
are
not affected by it, and to the best of my knowledge - are not carriers of
it. In fact, that's one of the best ways to narrow down the diagnosis
field:
the koi die, the goldies don't.

For argument's sake, however: something just horribly killed all the koi
in
your pond, but left other fish surviving. Would you jump to add more koi,
or
would you hedge your bets that just MAYBE the other fish - while
unaffected - may/could be carriers? Would you just figure on waiting 72
hours before repopulating your pond, because after all, the virus is DEAD
now - or perhaps you would add a few "canaries" to find out if they
thrived
or died before you added valued stock? Remember now that entire
commercial
facilities have been depopulated (a euphimism if I ever heard one) and
scrubbed with chlorine several times before reintroducing stock (overkill
perhaps, but what is being done nonetheless). Would it really be paranoia
to
at least *suspect* that maybe some of the virus could be hiding in your
plants, rockwork, or whatevers? If the possibility didn't exist, why
don't
the commerical facilities just wait a week or so?



I (obviously) have not read EVERY word on the subject, but I try to read
as
much as I can. I have not read anything that *definitively* excludes the
*possibility* of carrier status benign to the goldies as most of the
studies
have been directed at the affected fish: koi (and most of my reading is
directed at koi as I don't have any goldies). If you have read such a
study - and I say this without ANY rancor - I would like to read it so I
can
eliminate future cautionary statements from any recommendations I may
make.
When I make errors, I prefer caution to recklessness. I am a hobbyist,
not
an aquaculturist. And I am always learning.



Lee





"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Folks,

Where is the research that says the Goldfish carry the virus. All
research
that I have read said that it does not affect the goldfish in any way
and
that they do not carry the disease. Sounds like someone is looking for
an
escape goat. Nothing like blaming it on the goldfish. The research
that
I
read and the researcher I talked about said that the herpes virus will
not
live outside the host.

Also muffin, if you are worried about the pond put off getting your new
fish
until next spring, because even inside the fish the KHV will not live
in
cold water. It dies when the temps go below 50.

I guess I will have to go to KOIVet and raise hell. Nothing like
blaming
crap on the goldfish.

Tom L.L.
==========================
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The stores/breeders *do* disinfect with chlorine - *EVERYthing* that
comes
in contact with the infected fish, including nets. Plants are
suspect.
Goldies and other pond fish are suspect, and you can't disinfect
because
of
them. Two alternatives come to mind: a) build another pond, koi only;
or
b)
skip koi and do goldies only. The goldies are nicer for a watergarden
(they
don't tear up plants like koi do!). This disease is one of the
primary
reasons why the new mantra is "quarantine - quarantine - quarantine".

Good luck, Muffin.

Lee
"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
the dealer, in Florida, had his stock checked at some university..
it
was
confirmed.( he got a bad shipment)
(I'm in Ohio)

I have been also told you need to disinfect everything with
chlorine,,
which
is something I cannot do at this time.

I am soooo confused. thought of losing another $200 worth of fish
does
please me.

I can segregate a few fish, but even that will not stop them dying
when
I
FINALLY do put them in the pond, so that doesn't seem like that is
worthwhile to do.
guess DO it, & see what comes,,, then decide if keeping the
goldfish
is
worth it, of chuck every thing & start over..


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Muffin, whether or not goldfish can be carriers is an "unknown"
at
this
time. It's an accepted theory that without a host, the virus dies
off
in
the
pond after several days. But you still had goldfish, so it's
"iffy".
It's
also unproven as to whether or not the "heat cured" fish remain
carriers.
It's kinda like when you got chickenpox as a kid: you got over
it -
but
you
are 70% more likely to develop shingles as an adult (same
stuff/different
place), and the older you get (70's, 80's, etc.), the likelihood
increases.
Your new fish may be OK, or they may get sick from the goldies if
the
goldies are "shedding" the virus without getting sick themselves
(think
Typhoid Mary). In your position, I'd watch my "sacrificial" koi
very
carefully and keep the "good" koi in isolation, away from any
potential
problem until I was reasonably sure that that all was well in the
pond.

Was KHV an official diagnosis? Where are you located?

Lee


"*muffin*" wrote in message
...
well, I lost several new purchased koi & the ones IN my pond to
KHV
6
weeks
ago.
the shipper is replacing the fish,,(thankfully) but it is a
PIA..
luckily
I
did NOT have a large assortment of ones in my pond already.

(ok do NOT yell at me,, for not quarantine...... new pond,,
fish
IN
the
pond
were mostly 10 cent goldfish)(all my goldfish were unaffected)

anyway..... 3 weeks ago I put in 2 'store' koi.. they seem to
be
doing
happily.
but I read on koivet,, that goldfish can carry KHV........
so am I 'screwed'???? can I expect them to kick off? anyone
else
have
any
problems?luck

(at least I read heat can 'probably' save them)













See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

GF as carriers cannot be ruled out. Many bacteria and viruses make some species sick
and/or kill them without affecting other species at all. Until the scientists rule
GF out as carriers it would be wise to not repopulate with koi in the pond until a
new "canary" koi has been in the pond a full season without showing signs of
disease. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

GF as carriers cannot be ruled out. Many bacteria and viruses make some species sick
and/or kill them without affecting other species at all. Until the scientists rule
GF out as carriers it would be wise to not repopulate with koi in the pond until a
new "canary" koi has been in the pond a full season without showing signs of
disease. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.