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Burning Down the Pond
Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish? Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
Sounds fine, as long as you like BBQd fish :-)
-- Ken Russell "Mike Patterson" wrote in message ... | Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage | problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, | so now I'm thinking... | | How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, | put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the | pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. | | I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. | | Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish? | | Mike | Mike Patterson | Please remove the spamtrap to email me. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 8/01/2004 |
Burning Down the Pond
So you just came back from Las Vegas and saw Mirage?
-- _______________________________________ "The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'." http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino "Mike Patterson" wrote in message ... Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish? Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:43:53 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
wrote: So you just came back from Las Vegas and saw Mirage? Now that you mention it, I forgot that I did see something like that about 4 years ago in LV, but don't remember too much about it. Maybe that's where my subconscious got it from. Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:25:57 +1100, "Ken Russell"
wrote: Sounds fine, as long as you like BBQd fish :-) Well, the pond is about 1300 gallons, and heat rises, and it's outside, so maybe it wouldn't raise the water temp much. I hope. I think I'll do some experimentation first with a #10 washtub. See if the water temp goes up, play with the effect, etc. Might make a good bit for the web page too. Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. One would need an automatic sparker to ignite the gas bubbles, and if the concentration isn't enough, it is just a gas leak. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Why not floating candles? |
Burning Down the Pond
Xref: kermit rec.ponds:137318
How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. Does natural gas contain sulfur? If so, I seem to recall something about Sulfur Dioxide (poison) or Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell) being a possible byproduct when mixed with water. I'm sure some of our chemistry experts will chime in on this one, as I've forgotten much more about chemistry than I remember. Jim Zone 8a - Dallas, Texas Pond, Veggie Filter, Pond Maintenance & Pond Tour Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/dallas75248 |
Burning Down the Pond
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:15:31 -0600, John Hines
wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. One would need an automatic sparker to ignite the gas bubbles, and if the concentration isn't enough, it is just a gas leak. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Why not floating candles? 'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for -cool- not -cute-. :-) But I appreciate the thought. I already have a gas grill spark igniter I've been playing with, I could just mount it on a 5' stick to light the flame. Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:15:02 -0500
Mike Patterson wrote: Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish? Mike I think the bubbles would be too intermittent to hold the flame unless you were running more gas than you'd care to. (Unless you use a bubble diffuser?) Maybe run the pipe almost to the surface so there's more of a steady gas stream? That'd cut down on the water/gas interaction, too, in case of any adverse reactions with the pond environment. Cybe R. Wizard -/wants/ to see it in action! -- Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P. Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P. "Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y. Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:25:57 +1100, "Ken Russell" wrote: Sounds fine, as long as you like BBQd fish :-) Well, the pond is about 1300 gallons, and heat rises, and it's outside, so maybe it wouldn't raise the water temp much. I hope. Mike I put a concrete pad and gas line in next to where I am putting the new pond in spring. I will be able to sit in front of the campfire and watch the flames reflect off the pond and the waterfall. Here are some pics of the first design made from scrap parts. http://ourkoipond.com/Fire1.jpg http://ourkoipond.com/Fire2.jpg http://ourkoipond.com/Fire3.jpg http://ourkoipond.com/Fire4.jpg http://ourkoipond.com/Fire5.jpg http://ourkoipond.com/Fire6.jpg I also thought of putting one in the center of the 24' dia. area of the new 12,000gal. pond. I put a pdf file on my website so you can check out the gas Heat~N~Glo Campfire base Retail Price $260.00 http://ourkoipond.com/Patio Campfire.pdf You can build your own stone base around it or add their Rock Ring Fire Pit Surround: Retail $210.00 See http://www.heatnglo-lifestyle.com/cu...rePitSpecs.pdf This is a little too big for your 1300 gal pond, the fire base is 14" square and the stone ring is 22" dia X 8" high. But it's a thought. Disclaimer == I have not, nor will I ever receive any compensation for this recommendation. CHAGOI HTTP://OURKOIPOND.COM |
Burning Down the Pond
Jim wrote:
How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. Does natural gas contain sulfur? If so, I seem to recall something about Sulfur Dioxide (poison) or Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell) being a possible byproduct when mixed with water. I'm sure some of our chemistry experts will chime in on this one, as I've forgotten much more about chemistry than I remember. Jim Zone 8a - Dallas, Texas Pond, Veggie Filter, Pond Maintenance & Pond Tour Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/dallas75248 ELEMENTS OF COMBUSTION OF NATURAL GAS 1 ft3 natural gas + 10 ft3 air + flame = 8 ft3 nitrogen +1 ft3 carbon dioxide + 2 ft3 water vapor Gas + Air = Nitrogen + Carbon Dioxide + Water Vapor NO Sulfur Chagoi |
Burning Down the Pond
Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:15:02 -0500 Mike Patterson wrote: Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish? Mike I think the bubbles would be too intermittent to hold the flame unless you were running more gas than you'd care to. (Unless you use a bubble diffuser?) Maybe run the pipe almost to the surface so there's more of a steady gas stream? That'd cut down on the water/gas interaction, too, in case of any adverse reactions with the pond environment. Cybe R. Wizard -/wants/ to see it in action! LPG forms a flammable mixture when mixed with air. The flammable range at ambient temperature and pressure extends between approximately 2 % of the vapour in air at its lower limit and approximately 10 % of the vapour in air at its upper limit. Within this range there is a risk of ignition. Outside this range any mixture is either too weak or too rich to propagate flame. However, over-rich mixtures can become hazardous when diluted with air and will also burn at the interface with air. Air/Gas required for combustion (m3 to burn 1 m3 of gas) Butane 30:1 Propane 24 :1 Natural Gas 10:1 Chagoi http://ourkoipond.com |
Burning Down the Pond
You are my kind of Dude, Dude!
Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you! Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to mess with gas or electricity! For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department. If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you! -- _______________________________________ "The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'." http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino "Mike Patterson" wrote in message ... On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:15:31 -0600, John Hines wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. One would need an automatic sparker to ignite the gas bubbles, and if the concentration isn't enough, it is just a gas leak. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Why not floating candles? 'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for -cool- not -cute-. :-) But I appreciate the thought. I already have a gas grill spark igniter I've been playing with, I could just mount it on a 5' stick to light the flame. Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT
"Just Me \"Koi\"" wrote: If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you! DANG, I must be getting old. I read that as, "...immolate you." Cybe R. Wizard -- Unofficial "Wizard of Odds," A.H.P. Original PORG "Water Wizard," R.P. "Wize(ned) Wizard," A.P.F-P-Y. Barely Tolerated Wizard, A.J.L & A.A.L |
Burning Down the Pond
NO Sulfur
Isn't Mercaptan used to provide the odor for natural gas? If so, it contains sulfur. What is Mercaptan? Natural gas in its native state is colorless and odorless. Mercaptan is the additive that is added to natural gas to make it easier to detect in case of a leak. The most important thing to know about mercaptan is that it stinks. Some people compare it to the smell of rotten eggs. In a concentrated form, its smell is almost unbearable. And it takes only a few parts per million of mercaptan to give natural gas a smell. That is precisely why we add it to natural gas. If we did not add mercaptan, it would be hard for you to know that unlit natural gas was coming from your stove after you left the valve turned on. And leaks from furnaces and hot water heaters would be nearly impossible to detect without expensive equipment. So mercaptan's smell is a very valuable safety feature. Mercaptans contain sulfur. That's what makes them smell. The kind we use blends well with natural gas and, in a gaseous state, has much the same properties as natural gas, so it will also rise and dissipate with natural gas. There are other uses for mercaptans in industry, including jet fuel, pharmaceuticals and livestock feed additives. They are used in many chemical plants. Mercaptans are less corrosive and less toxic than similar sulfur compounds found naturally in rotten eggs, onions, garlic, skunks, and, of course, bad breath. In other word, forms of mercaptan can be found in things that smell. Source: http://www.columbiagaspamd.com/commu.../mercaptan.htm Jim Zone 8a - Dallas, Texas Pond, Veggie Filter, Pond Maintenance & Pond Tour Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/dallas75248 On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 01:56:33 -0500, in rec.ponds you wrote: Jim wrote: How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. Does natural gas contain sulfur? If so, I seem to recall something about Sulfur Dioxide (poison) or Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell) being a possible byproduct when mixed with water. I'm sure some of our chemistry experts will chime in on this one, as I've forgotten much more about chemistry than I remember. Jim Zone 8a - Dallas, Texas Pond, Veggie Filter, Pond Maintenance & Pond Tour Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/dallas75248 ELEMENTS OF COMBUSTION OF NATURAL GAS 1 ft3 natural gas + 10 ft3 air + flame = 8 ft3 nitrogen +1 ft3 carbon dioxide + 2 ft3 water vapor Gas + Air = Nitrogen + Carbon Dioxide + Water Vapor NO Sulfur Chagoi |
Burning Down the Pond
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:03:00 GMT, "Cybe R. Wizard"
Cybe_R_Wizard@WizardsTower wrote: On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT "Just Me \"Koi\"" wrote: If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you! DANG, I must be getting old. I read that as, "...immolate you." Cybe R. Wizard Well, I hope it wasn't a prophetic reading...especially since I'll be experimenting with it for a bit. Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\""
wrote: You are my kind of Dude, Dude! Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you! Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to mess with gas or electricity! For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department. If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you! I'm hoping to be able to have the nozzle under the water, the farther down the better. Right now I have no fish, so that's no problem yet, just want to investigate before getting fish. (I plan to get tilapia & cheap goldfish anyway.) I have a couple of old metal #10 washtubs, I think they hold 50-60 gallons, I'll use one for my "test pond". If I can find a way to test for toxins, I will. If not, I may get a coupla cheap goldfiah to act as my "canaries". OF course, even if I discover specific toxin levels in the water, then I'd need to know what level are likely to harm fish. Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT, "Just Me \"Koi\"" wrote: You are my kind of Dude, Dude! Fire? Who is afraid of fire! Not you! Actually I think it is a great idea, only that I am not masculine enough to mess with gas or electricity! For it to really look cool, the nozzle will have to be hidden, and the gas flow will have to be substantial enough to flood the surface of the water and then be ignite and sustain the burn! You said it best that you will need to play with the gas nozzle, fire extinguisher, scotched Koi, first aid kit, and one touch dial to the paramedics and the fire department. If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you! I'm hoping to be able to have the nozzle under the water, the farther down the better. Check on the dissolvability of natural gas, and its components in water. It has been a long time since chem class, I don't know. A lab with bunsen burners would be really handy here, maybe you can get some HS students interested in a little experiment. Or maybe ask in a chemistry newsgroup. You might also want to look at industrial supply sites, as burning off excess gas is a common problem in oil production, and landfills. Simply having the flame at pond level would be cool, think of the eternal flame at Kennedy's grave site, except coming out of water, with no visible means of support, just a flame coming out of the middle of the pond. I have a couple of old metal #10 washtubs, I think they hold 50-60 gallons, I'll use one for my "test pond". A really good idea. If I can find a way to test for toxins, I will. If not, I may get a coupla cheap goldfiah to act as my "canaries". The under USD$2 per dozen goldfish sold for feeding other fish, work well as pond fish. They grow up very nicely. |
Burning Down the Pond
Jim wrote:
How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. Does natural gas contain sulfur? If so, I seem to recall something about Sulfur Dioxide (poison) or Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell) being a possible byproduct when mixed with water. I'm sure some of our chemistry experts will chime in on this one, as I've forgotten much more about chemistry than I remember. One can get tanks of any kind of gas one wants. If there is a problem with contamination, get a tank of pure gas. Anything in the ane family (methane, butane, propane) will do. The ever present propane exchange cylinders come to mind. One would almost certainly have legal liability issues connecting a home made gizmo to the natural gas supply, which this would avoid. A lot of hassles would be eliminated, at least at first, with a tank setup. Don't bother running a permanent gas line, until the cost of the tanks justifies it, and it doesn't wear out its welcome the first season. |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for -cool- not -cute-. :-) Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5) |
Burning Down the Pond
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines
wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: 'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for -cool- not -cute-. :-) Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5) That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look. Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely would it burn off the surface of the water? Somehow I don't think that one will work... Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish? Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. By bubbling the NG through the pond, some of it is going to diffuse into the water. I doubt the fish would appreciate that any more than you would someone leaving the gas on at the stove. |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: 'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for -cool- not -cute-. :-) Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5) That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look. Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and it will disappear from sight. Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely would it burn off the surface of the water? Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out. You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a historical source of portable flammable gas. |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: 'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for -cool- not -cute-. :-) Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5) That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look. Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and it will disappear from sight. Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely would it burn off the surface of the water? Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out. You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a historical source of portable flammable gas. |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: 'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for -cool- not -cute-. :-) Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5) That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look. Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and it will disappear from sight. Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely would it burn off the surface of the water? Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out. You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a historical source of portable flammable gas. |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: 'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for -cool- not -cute-. :-) Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5) That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look. Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and it will disappear from sight. Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely would it burn off the surface of the water? Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out. You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a historical source of portable flammable gas. |
Burning Down the Pond
What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
*water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak? Anne Lurie Raleigh, NC "Mike Patterson" wrote in message ... Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish? Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:14:35 GMT, "Anne Lurie"
wrote: What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about *water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak? Anne Lurie Raleigh, NC Why yes, I would. :-) However, I was planning to only have the flame running when I was around to watch it anyway. Toooo much $$ otherwise. Thanks for the input. The more problems folks think of, the more prepared I can be. snip Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
John Hines wrote:
Mike Patterson wrote: On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:37:27 -0600, John Hines wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: 'Cause I don't want no cutesy namby-pamby girly thing, I'm going for -cool- not -cute-. :-) Micro butane torches, like the pocket sized ones, and a styrofoam collar? (harbor freight item 39440-3rah $5) That's a thought, I actually have one of those, but I was hoping to get the "fire on the water with no visible means of support" look. Put it in a partially submerged container, which floats such that it holds the flame in the right position to the water? Paint it black and it will disappear from sight. That is basically the design of the FEFD I spoke of earlier. Just how water-insoluble is gasoline, I wonder? And how completely would it burn off the surface of the water? No matter what you use, it is still going to be petroleum based and you know what happens to wild life when water and oil try to mix. Again, look for a cleaner oil. For example, pure (clear) kerosene. The fewer the additives, the easier it is to figure out. even Coleman fuel will have harmful after effects. You should look into the water-carbide reaction which generates acetylene when mixed. This was what used to power headlines and miners hat lights back about 1900 or so. What is left is a mess, which one wouldn't want in the pond, but if you could keep them separate, it is a historical source of portable flammable gas. those miner lamps usually held about 2 oz. of carbide rock and 3-4 oz of water and lasted several hours. And they only produced a small brilliant white flame. It would probably take you about 100 lbs and 20 gals of water to generate enough acetylene to burn about an hour. Chagoi http://ourkoipond.com |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles. |
Burning Down the Pond
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:43:08 -0900, Offbreed
wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles. Good idea, thanks. Even if it terminates under the surface, it would still reduce the gas/water "exposure time" to a couple of inches instead of 3 feet as I had been planning. Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
I'm thinking about the gas log I installed in the fireplace. This has
a shut off valve, some kind of a small orifice (I never checked the diameter), and the gas is fed to about 2 feet of perforated tube arranged in an S curve. The gas mixes with the air AFTER the gas leaves the perforated tube. This results in a dirtier, but more visible flame. (Just the oposite of a Bunsen burner). In your evaluation, try using regular gas pipe coming up to just above the surface of the water in your test tank. You WILL want to have some sort of an orifice restricting the flow just after the shut off valve, and some sort of a diffuser just above the surface of the water. I'm not at all enthusiastic about having the gas bubble up throught the water. You won't get a smooth flow, and the water will get saturated with natural gas. Once you get the mechanics worked out, you can explore replacing any metal parts above the water with glass. Heavy wall glass tubing in a wide range of diameters is a stock item at any laboratory supply house. I visualise two possible designs. The first is a simple glass tube 1/2 - 1" in diameter coming up to just above the surface of the water. You would remove any water from the tube, turn on the gas, and light it. At night, from a distance of more than a couple of feet, the glass tube would be hard to see. A more complex design would require a 4" diameter glass or plastic tube ending right at the surface of the water, and an inside that a much smaller tube 2" below that providing the gas. A small pump would be constantly emptying any water which flowed into the larger tube. The effect would be that of a 4" hole in the water with the flame coming out of it. PlainBill On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:00:54 -0500, Mike Patterson wrote: On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:43:08 -0900, Offbreed wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles. Good idea, thanks. Even if it terminates under the surface, it would still reduce the gas/water "exposure time" to a couple of inches instead of 3 feet as I had been planning. Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
You people are all nuts ;-)
And I nominate you all for that TV program MONSTER HOUSE. But I think we should rename it MONSTER POND. This project demands a web page when it is done... ka30p http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html |
Burning Down the Pond
LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! :oD
Janet You people are all nuts ;-) And I nominate you all for that TV program MONSTER HOUSE. But I think we should rename it MONSTER POND. This project demands a web page when it is done... ka30p http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html |
Burning Down the Pond
I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan
LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! :oD Janet You people are all nuts ;-) And I nominate you all for that TV program MONSTER HOUSE. But I think we should rename it MONSTER POND. This project demands a web page when it is done... ka30p http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html ~ jan |
Burning Down the Pond
Oh no Jan... HGTV does not know how to do ponds well or properly! On Weekend
Warrior last night they built a so-called koi pond. Hubby and I sat and laughed at all the bad ponding advice. Tiny pond, no real filtering, overstocked... you name it they did it! :oO Janet who's pond has 2 broken lines from this arctic air and hope the fish are ok under the solid ice.:o( Hopefully tomorrow we will get a hole thawed in the ice to check. I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! :oD Janet You people are all nuts ;-) And I nominate you all for that TV program MONSTER HOUSE. But I think we should rename it MONSTER POND. This project demands a web page when it is done... ka30p http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html ~ jan |
Burning Down the Pond
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:43:03 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
wrote: I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! :oD Janet You people are all nuts ;-) And I nominate you all for that TV program MONSTER HOUSE. But I think we should rename it MONSTER POND. This project demands a web page when it is done... ka30p http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html ~ jan So - I'm gathering no one who follows this group has ever heard of anything like this? I'm actually quite surprised at everyone's surprise, as it seems so obvious to me, and I know this group has more than it's share of creative thinkers. I guess I'll make sure to take pics of everything as I go, and success or failure, I'll put it on my web server. I've followed this group off and on for about 4-5 years now in "wish" mode, and I finally got the opportunity to build my own pond. Now that it's in, I'm looking to make it into my vision of a place to relax, socialize, and have just a touch of "ooooh, that's cool!" It's going to take anothe 2-3 years to get everything the way I want it, but I'm well on the way. Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
Anne Lurie wrote:
What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about *water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak? Anne Lurie Raleigh, NC That is part of what I am trying to stress to Mike P. You cannot simply stick a pipe or tube in the pond, connect it to a gas source and light it. It take pilots, orifices, burners, valves, and SAFEty devices. Mike S. Chagoi http://ourkoipond.com "Mike Patterson" wrote in message ... Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties. Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish? Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:43:08 -0900, Offbreed wrote: Mike Patterson wrote: Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed, so now I'm thinking... How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond, put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it. How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles. Good idea, thanks. Even if it terminates under the surface, it would still reduce the gas/water "exposure time" to a couple of inches instead of 3 feet as I had been planning. Mike P. Forget the "exposure time" that will not even come into play as the bubble method will not work reliably. No matter how close to the surface you start the bubbles. Mike S. Chagoi http://ourkoipond.com Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
Burning Down the Pond
Ka30P wrote:
You people are all nuts ;-) And I nominate you all for that TV program MONSTER HOUSE. But I think we should rename it MONSTER POND. This project demands a web page when it is done... Ka30P & Janet I guess I am just going to have to come out and tell MiKe P. that he is literally] PLAYING WTH FIRE AND CAN GET SERIOUSLY BURNED. "NO PUN INTENDED" There are too, too, many things that can go wrong with what he is attempting to do and the way he wants to go about it. I work with propane, gas fireplaces and the like. I have trained with GAS both as a fireman and as a repairman/installer. I have also experimented with it and my gas campfire is a hybrid of regular manufacturers design and some of my own. The Flame thingy or the FEFD (Floating Eternal Flame Device) as it will be called if it works. Has all the safety controls, valves, pilot light, and burners that your home gas furnace has only on a smaller, simpler scale. You can't just run a gas line and light the gas and expect it to stay lit. Especially in a pond with waves or even ripples from curious fish swimming by near the surface. Again I repeat: The only way the bubble method might work is if you have a standing pilot. To help maintain the flame. Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame. (ex. Fireball... steady pilot flame... Fireball...steady pilot flame...Fireball...Fireball... Fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc... If it wasn't so cold (-4 F last night, only 11 F today and maybe 20 F tomorrow) and everything frozen I could go outside and do some video of what he wants to do and show him just what CAN and WILL happen if he goes about the testing he wants to do. But, Ice doesn’t bubble too well. Even with my training and respect of gas, I get SCARED at times when experimenting. And I am not ashamed to admit it. I have lost my share of eyebrows, moustache, and beard to experimentation. No serious burns, other than forgetting that a part was hot. Again Mike P; "YOUR PLAYING WTH FIRE AND CAN GET SERIOUSLY BURNED". "NO PUN INTENDED" I don't want to have to tell you later: I TOLD YOU SO! Mike S. Chagoi http://ourkoipond.com |
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