Well what do you know, for once I agree 100% with what you
posted........Amazing isn't it?

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:12:22 -0400, Derek Broughton
wrote:

===Wildkarrde wrote:
===
=== You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
=== toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
=== yard as to not eat after handling it.
===
===No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
===have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
==="end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.
===
=== Let me explain what can happen...
=== You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
=== rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
=== off the
=== wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I
===
===Do you know what the poison is?
===
=== just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
=== climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
=== made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
=== saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed,
=== they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
=== and sod to get
===
===Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds, now,
===because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
===danger.
===
=== rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's
===
===That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge variation
===in poisons.
===
=== way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
=== it
=== probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
=== the
===
===Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time after,
===it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.
===
===The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
===that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

Derek Broughton wrote:
Wildkarrde wrote:


You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
yard as to not eat after handling it.


No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
"end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.


Let me explain what can happen...
You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
off the
wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I


Do you know what the poison is?


just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed,
they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
and sod to get


Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds, now,
because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
danger.


rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's


That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge variation
in poisons.


way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
it
probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
the


Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time after,
it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.

The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.

Well, the two of you have my attention. I guess something that kills
insects, no matter the toxin, probably isn't good to have that close to
a pond. The problem is drywood termites are an absolute menace to any
untreated wood structures here. I guess I'll have to use redwood (eek!
pricey), or go with the stock tank idea.

This whole project may wait until summer anyway. BF will be back in
town and he's handy enough to build something really nice. Everyone
here has wrecked me and I'm now imagining a pond of 4x4s with a bench
railing to conceal the liner.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

If PT lumber was so darn hazzardous to fish etc you would not see all
those piers, docks and other items constructed out of it in and around
all the countrys waterways and bodies of water and garden
centers.........The ingredients used nowadays in PT lumber is not of
the same stuff that was used 10 years ago.......There are different
classes ofPT lumber available, and the stuff you woul dbuy at builder
supply stores like Mennard, Lowes, Home Depot are all a .40 class and
even though they may have labels stating danger etc on them, are not
harmfull..........The local zoo here has an aviary built usiing the
stuff, and birds roost on it, been there for a number of
years..........How many garden centers do you see setup with liners
set in a framework of landscape timbers and all that nice decking
around them..........its PT lumber........and does no harm.....

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:16:09 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:

===Derek Broughton wrote:
=== Wildkarrde wrote:
===
===
===You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
===toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
===yard as to not eat after handling it.
===
===
=== No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
=== have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
=== "end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.
===
===
===Let me explain what can happen...
===You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
===rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
===off the
===wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I
===
===
=== Do you know what the poison is?
===
===
===just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
===climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
===made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
===saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed,
===they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
===and sod to get
===
===
=== Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds, now,
=== because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
=== danger.
===
===
===rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's
===
===
=== That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge variation
=== in poisons.
===
===
===way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
===it
===probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
===the
===
===
=== Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time after,
=== it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.
===
=== The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
=== that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.
===
===Well, the two of you have my attention. I guess something that kills
===insects, no matter the toxin, probably isn't good to have that close to
===a pond. The problem is drywood termites are an absolute menace to any
===untreated wood structures here. I guess I'll have to use redwood (eek!
===pricey), or go with the stock tank idea.
===
===This whole project may wait until summer anyway. BF will be back in
===town and he's handy enough to build something really nice. Everyone
===here has wrecked me and I'm now imagining a pond of 4x4s with a bench
===railing to conceal the liner.


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

My yard fence and deck by my pond are built entirely out of PT wood and all
the garden/ pond places around here use it extensively for above ground
ponds with a top rail of PT wood outdoors, so when it rains the water must
run off the railing into the ponds. I know they say you should not cut this
wood indoors and use a mask so you don't ingest the sawdust, but after the
structure is in place, I have read no warnings about it
Gale :~)

You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the
lumber
yard as to not eat after handling it.


No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled.
The
"end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.


Let me explain what can happen...
You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
off the
wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I


Do you know what the poison is?


just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for
childrens
climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were
removed,
they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
and sod to get


Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds,
now,
because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
danger.


rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it
there's


That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge
variation
in poisons.


way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
it
probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
the


Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time
after,
it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.

The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.

Well, the two of you have my attention. I guess something that kills
insects, no matter the toxin, probably isn't good to have that close to
a pond. The problem is drywood termites are an absolute menace to any
untreated wood structures here. I guess I'll have to use redwood (eek!
pricey), or go with the stock tank idea.

This whole project may wait until summer anyway. BF will be back in
town and he's handy enough to build something really nice. Everyone
here has wrecked me and I'm now imagining a pond of 4x4s with a bench
railing to conceal the liner.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Copper is a main ingredient in algacide........and copper something or
other is in the PT lumber as well as other so called bad things, yet
if you look at a pier or dock or water structure it always has algae
growing on it as well as other marine life, so it can;'t be leeching
out any materials thata re so called harmfull.

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

Look, all I'm saying is toxins are toxins. I stand in front of the pressure
treated wood in the local lumber yard and the big sign there warns me of
such. I think I have succeeded when Elain at least thinks about what she
might do. Personally, if any of you want to use whatever to build your
pond, I could care less. I made a point and it was as simple as that.
Elaine, I apologize for stirring up a bunch of garbage regarding your post.
"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...
Derek Broughton wrote:
Wildkarrde wrote:


You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the
lumber
yard as to not eat after handling it.


No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled.
The
"end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.


Let me explain what can happen...
You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
off the
wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I


Do you know what the poison is?


just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for
childrens
climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were
removed,
they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
and sod to get


Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds,
now,
because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
danger.


rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it
there's


That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge
variation
in poisons.


way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
it
probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
the


Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time
after,
it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.

The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.

Well, the two of you have my attention. I guess something that kills
insects, no matter the toxin, probably isn't good to have that close to
a pond. The problem is drywood termites are an absolute menace to any
untreated wood structures here. I guess I'll have to use redwood (eek!
pricey), or go with the stock tank idea.

This whole project may wait until summer anyway. BF will be back in
town and he's handy enough to build something really nice. Everyone
here has wrecked me and I'm now imagining a pond of 4x4s with a bench
railing to conceal the liner.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

CCA treated lumber has been banned for residential use in the US. Oddly
enough, it is still approved for some water use -not for drinking water.
And, I have seen bull rushes and algae growing in a mixture of jet fuel,
hydraulic fluid and de-icier -doesn't mean it's safe.

Dave
-/-

Try to beat the DragonKoi at Poker Champs...
https://secure.pokerchamps.com/poker...code=DRAGONKOI


"Roy" wrote in message
...
| Copper is a main ingredient in algacide........and copper something or
| other is in the PT lumber as well as other so called bad things, yet
| if you look at a pier or dock or water structure it always has algae
| growing on it as well as other marine life, so it can;'t be leeching
| out any materials thata re so called harmfull.
|
| REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
| Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from
selling GF (and sold
| the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired
from
| helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is
best for
| diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your
fish at Dandy Orandas
| Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

Wildkarrde wrote:
Look, all I'm saying is toxins are toxins. I stand in front of the pressure
treated wood in the local lumber yard and the big sign there warns me of
such. I think I have succeeded when Elain at least thinks about what she
might do. Personally, if any of you want to use whatever to build your
pond, I could care less. I made a point and it was as simple as that.
Elaine, I apologize for stirring up a bunch of garbage regarding your post.

No apologies necessary. As you pointed out, you made me think and I
thank you for that. I hadn't considered what is actually in pressure
treated wood and whether it could leach into my pond. That's why I'm
asking questions BEFORE I build the pond. *grin*

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:21:13 GMT, Elaine T wrote:

No apologies necessary. As you pointed out, you made me think and I
thank you for that. I hadn't considered what is actually in pressure
treated wood and whether it could leach into my pond. That's why I'm
asking questions BEFORE I build the pond. *grin*

What about that fake wood made from recycled plastics? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Wildkarrde wrote:

I said USUALLY labeled. The fact is that yes it is arsenic and frankly
arsenic is poisonour, period. Why anyone would want to just build
something that housed living beings out of something containing poison is

You don't understand the nature of toxins (and you're wrong, PT lumber is
not _usually_ labelled as hazardous).

Arsenic isn't "poisonous, period". It is a hazard to people, but not
provably a problem to your fish. It could potentially harm other creatures
in your pond (snails - but it's the copper, not the arsenic), but there's
no good evidence of that. It isn't something you should chew on (I stopped
one of the dogs doing that yesterday), but is generally considered safe
when used with care.

--
derek

DH wrote:

CCA treated lumber has been banned for residential use in the US.

Not quite. EPA.gov says "As of January 1, 2004, EPA will not allow CCA
products to be used to treat wood intended for most residential settings"
--
derek

Gale Pearce wrote:

I know they say you should
not cut this wood indoors and use a mask so you don't ingest the sawdust,
but after the structure is in place, I have read no warnings about it

And sawdust is something you shouldn't be inhaling anyway :-)
--
derek

In the old days, CCA was used, but now for residential applications the
material is ACQ or Alkaline Copper Quaternary, which has several times the
amount of the copper found in the old CCA. The Quaternary compounds are
organic ammonia compounds, which are not addressed in the MSDS, the same way
as the copper. Near the end of the MSDS it is listed as a marine pollutant.
Doc Johnson had information about the use of CCA treated wood, in which he
recommended that if you we3re going to use it, at least allow it to weather
some first. Freshly treated wood, which is soaked under pressure in the
appropriate chemical, has an excess of the treatment solution on the
surface, which is water soluble. By allowing some weathering, excess salts
are washed from the surface, making the rest of the treatment unlikely to
pollute the pond.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Wildkarrde wrote:

I said USUALLY labeled. The fact is that yes it is arsenic and frankly
arsenic is poisonour, period. Why anyone would want to just build
something that housed living beings out of something containing poison is

You don't understand the nature of toxins (and you're wrong, PT lumber is
not _usually_ labelled as hazardous).

Arsenic isn't "poisonous, period". It is a hazard to people, but not
provably a problem to your fish. It could potentially harm other
creatures
in your pond (snails - but it's the copper, not the arsenic), but there's
no good evidence of that. It isn't something you should chew on (I
stopped
one of the dogs doing that yesterday), but is generally considered safe
when used with care.

--
derek

"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...
Wildkarrde wrote:
Look, all I'm saying is toxins are toxins. I stand in front of the
pressure
treated wood in the local lumber yard and the big sign there warns me of
such. I think I have succeeded when Elain at least thinks about what
she
might do. Personally, if any of you want to use whatever to build your
pond, I could care less. I made a point and it was as simple as that.
Elaine, I apologize for stirring up a bunch of garbage regarding your
post.

No apologies necessary. As you pointed out, you made me think and I
thank you for that. I hadn't considered what is actually in pressure
treated wood and whether it could leach into my pond. That's why I'm
asking questions BEFORE I build the pond. *grin*

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:57:13 -0800, "Wildkarrde"
wrote:

===
==="Elaine T" wrote in message
igy.net...
=== Wildkarrde wrote:
=== Look, all I'm saying is toxins are toxins. I stand in front of the
===pressure
=== treated wood in the local lumber yard and the big sign there warns me of
=== such. I think I have succeeded when Elain at least thinks about what
===she
=== might do. Personally, if any of you want to use whatever to build your
=== pond, I could care less. I made a point and it was as simple as that.
=== Elaine, I apologize for stirring up a bunch of garbage regarding your
===post.
===
=== No apologies necessary. As you pointed out, you made me think and I
=== thank you for that. I hadn't considered what is actually in pressure
=== treated wood and whether it could leach into my pond. That's why I'm
=== asking questions BEFORE I build the pond. *grin*
===
=== --
=== __ Elaine T __
=== __' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
===
===
===
yea, its on the internet so it must be true

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS