Ok...I'm back. ;-)

I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a
pond. No electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of
plants and only a fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me.
I'm in Southern California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some
research, it looks like I have two choices, since I'm not super handy
and far from rich.

First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
about the temperatures. Volume should be about 200 gallons. This
appeals because I like how the wood will look, it will be easy to break
down when I likely move this summer, and it is very inexpensive to see
if I like ponding. Cost is $50 in liner plus lumber costs - should be
well under $100.

Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it
a bit with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not
sure what size yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones
that look affordable and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with
less bottom area on the concrete, but also less surface area for
oxygen/C02 exchange and plants.

I want to eventually grow dwarf lotus, papyrus, Acorus rush, and keep
one or two shebunkins.

I'd appreciate any input at all since I'm so new to this. I'd really
like to have a nice small pond that I can enjoy.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

"Elaine T" wrote in message
om...
Ok...I'm back. ;-)

I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a pond. No
electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of plants and only a
fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me. I'm in Southern
California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some research, it looks like I
have two choices, since I'm not super handy and far from rich.

First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay, line, and
fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow and will have a
lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned about the temperatures.
Volume should be about 200 gallons. This appeals because I like how the wood
will look, it will be easy to break down when I likely move this summer, and
it is very inexpensive to see if I like ponding. Cost is $50 in liner plus
lumber costs - should be well under $100.

Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it a bit
with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not sure what size
yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones that look affordable
and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with less bottom area on the
concrete, but also less surface area for oxygen/C02 exchange and plants.

I want to eventually grow dwarf lotus, papyrus, Acorus rush, and keep one or
two shebunkins.

I'd appreciate any input at all since I'm so new to this. I'd really like to
have a nice small pond that I can enjoy.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

My advice would be to go with 4x4s instead of 2x12s. The 2x12s will flex too
much, and as it WILL get wet, even treated, it will warp much more than 4x4s do.
You can stack them, and tie them together by drilling a small hole completely
through from top to bottom and then hammer in some metal rods. I used
galvanized lag bolts to bolt the timbers together on the ends. That will keep
the whole thing rigid and prevent one from bowing out abnormally. Then install
your liner, letting it overlap the top 4x4s, and cap it with 1x4s that are
screwed into the 4x4s, and just cut off the excess liner. Be sure to use
stainless steel screws so they don't rust. I built one like this that is 4'x12'
using 6'x6' fencing posts (mine is bigger, and holds 1,400 gallons). Mine is
45" deep (27" in-ground, and 18" above ground). Here is a picture of what it
looks like when completed:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/image002.jpg

Good luck.

Elaine T wrote:
Ok...I'm back. ;-)

I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a
pond. No electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of
plants and only a fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me.
I'm in Southern California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some
research, it looks like I have two choices, since I'm not super handy
and far from rich.

First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
about the temperatures. Volume should be about 200 gallons. This
appeals because I like how the wood will look, it will be easy to break
down when I likely move this summer, and it is very inexpensive to see
if I like ponding. Cost is $50 in liner plus lumber costs - should be
well under $100.

Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it
a bit with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not
sure what size yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones
that look affordable and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with
less bottom area on the concrete, but also less surface area for
oxygen/C02 exchange and plants.

I want to eventually grow dwarf lotus, papyrus, Acorus rush, and keep
one or two shebunkins.

I'd appreciate any input at all since I'm so new to this. I'd really
like to have a nice small pond that I can enjoy.




--
Bonnie
NJ
http://home.earthlink.net/~maebe43/

Elaine T wrote:
Ok...I'm back. ;-)

I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a
pond. No electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of
plants and only a fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me.
I'm in Southern California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some
research, it looks like I have two choices, since I'm not super handy
and far from rich.

First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
about the temperatures. Volume should be about 200 gallons. This
appeals because I like how the wood will look, it will be easy to break
down when I likely move this summer, and it is very inexpensive to see
if I like ponding. Cost is $50 in liner plus lumber costs - should be
well under $100.

Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it
a bit with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not
sure what size yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones
that look affordable and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with
less bottom area on the concrete, but also less surface area for
oxygen/C02 exchange and plants.

I want to eventually grow dwarf lotus, papyrus, Acorus rush, and keep
one or two shebunkins.

I'd appreciate any input at all since I'm so new to this. I'd really
like to have a nice small pond that I can enjoy.




--
Bonnie
NJ
http://home.earthlink.net/~maebe43/

Elaine T wrote:
First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
about the temperatures.

I vote for this one, put a sheet of Styrofoam under, between the concrete &
liner (or pond shell), this will take care of the temp., not to mention add
cushioning. ) ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Elaine T wrote:
First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
about the temperatures.

I vote for this one, put a sheet of Styrofoam under, between the concrete &
liner (or pond shell), this will take care of the temp., not to mention add
cushioning. ) ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

"Elaine T" wrote in message
om...
Ok...I'm back. ;-)

I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a pond.
No electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of plants and
only a fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me. I'm in
Southern California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some research, it
looks like I have two choices, since I'm not super handy and far from
rich.

First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay, line,
and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow and will
have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned about the
temperatures. Volume should be about 200 gallons. This appeals because I
like how the wood will look, it will be easy to break down when I likely
move this summer, and it is very inexpensive to see if I like ponding.
Cost is $50 in liner plus lumber costs - should be well under $100.

Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it a
bit with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not sure
what size yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones that look
affordable and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with less bottom
area on the concrete, but also less surface area for oxygen/C02 exchange
and plants.
[snip]

My first ponds were stock tanks and I like them because
they're great for beginners. The mistake I made on
my first was buying one with an uneven bottom which
made it harder to get the plant pots to stay upright. My
second was (is) a Rubbermaid 150 gallon with a smooth
bottom. That may be the one you're referring to.

You can also buy stock tanks that are shallower and
rounder - which makes them less flexible to fit into
spaces, perhaps. I don't think you have to worry
as much about oxygen exchange for plants. That's
more to do with fish, and if you keep small fish, like
minnows, you probably won't have a problem. I
have minnows and a ton of plants in a 110 stock
tank - all are healthy year around (no filtration, no
water movement other than the wind).

If you don't mind the effort, I agree with Jan that
your first choice is probably the best. But keep in
mind most ponders go through a couple different
designs before settling on one (or several) they like.
Balance your effort and money with how much
you'll be experimenting over time.

Temperatures should not be a problem where you
are. I'm in Zone 8 and don't do anything to protect
my goldfish or minnows, which do fine (but then
it seldom gets below freezing around here). Plants
are a different matter, if you want tropicals. I have
only hardy plants, so can't help you there.

BTW for fish stock I really like minnows. They
are hardy, they stay small, they're not as fussy
about filtration as goldfish are, and they do a pretty
good job at keeping down the mosquitos. I bought
my original rosey reds at my LFS and then they
breed enough to replace themselves.

Gail
near San Antonio TX

When I rented I built an above ground pond on a concrete patio, using a pre
formed rubber liner, and pre made concrete landscaping blocks, commonly used
to make a decorative block wall out of. I braced the areas of the pre formed
pond that would sag from lack of support with wood bracing and it worked
well for a couple years. It came down in an hour when I was ready to move.

When I bought a house I used the landscaping blocks to form the basis of a
short wall to enclose the 700 gallon pond I eventually dug.

Why no electricity? You cant run a cord out there? Even if you stuck a
cannister filter in a protected spot on an extension cord it would be better
than nothing I think. Honestly I stuck a Magnum on an extension cord , hid
it under the rocks in a spot where I could get at it covered by slate tiles.
Worked fine for the volume (100 gallons).

Good luck

Daniel
Lakewood , CA

"Elaine T" wrote in message
om...
Ok...I'm back. ;-)

I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a
pond. No electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of
plants and only a fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me.
I'm in Southern California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some
research, it looks like I have two choices, since I'm not super handy
and far from rich.

First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
about the temperatures. Volume should be about 200 gallons. This
appeals because I like how the wood will look, it will be easy to break
down when I likely move this summer, and it is very inexpensive to see
if I like ponding. Cost is $50 in liner plus lumber costs - should be
well under $100.

Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it
a bit with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not
sure what size yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones
that look affordable and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with
less bottom area on the concrete, but also less surface area for
oxygen/C02 exchange and plants.

I want to eventually grow dwarf lotus, papyrus, Acorus rush, and keep
one or two shebunkins.

I'd appreciate any input at all since I'm so new to this. I'd really
like to have a nice small pond that I can enjoy.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Dsybok wrote:
When I rented I built an above ground pond on a concrete patio, using a pre
formed rubber liner, and pre made concrete landscaping blocks, commonly used
to make a decorative block wall out of. I braced the areas of the pre formed
pond that would sag from lack of support with wood bracing and it worked
well for a couple years. It came down in an hour when I was ready to move.

When I bought a house I used the landscaping blocks to form the basis of a
short wall to enclose the 700 gallon pond I eventually dug.

Why no electricity? You cant run a cord out there? Even if you stuck a
cannister filter in a protected spot on an extension cord it would be better
than nothing I think. Honestly I stuck a Magnum on an extension cord , hid
it under the rocks in a spot where I could get at it covered by slate tiles.
Worked fine for the volume (100 gallons).

Good luck


I'm replying to everyone in this message rather than type a bunch of
short ones. Such wonderful suggestions. I had never heard of rosey red
minnows, and they look much better for the size pond I'm thinking about.

George, your pond built from fencing posts looks beautiful. I'm not
sure whether I could manage that project or not - I'd definately have to
get some new drill bits and I'm not sure how to cut the rods. A
hacksaw, I suppose. It would be a challenge for me. I understand what
you're saying about the problems with 2x12s and bowing, though. I
hadn't thought about the wood getting wet - that's why I'm here.

I also hadn't thought of wood bracing under those preformed ponds. The
reason I was thinking of a stock tank is because they're freestanding.
I'll have to look at what's available for preformed ones because the
plant shelves and such would be really nice.

As for no electricity, the only way to run an extension cord would be to
leave a window ajar. I'm not crazy about doing that because then I
couldn't lock it. I think unfiltered will be fine, especially now that
I know about little minnows.

Lots of new ideas to mull over.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

As for no electricity, the only way to run an extension cord would be to
leave a window ajar. I'm not crazy about doing that because then I
couldn't lock it. I think unfiltered will be fine, especially now that
I know about little minnows.

Unfilter is okay.... but just out of curiousity, do you have a porch light?
You could always put one of those socket things in it, and screw the light
back in. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

As for no electricity, the only way to run an extension cord would be to
leave a window ajar. I'm not crazy about doing that because then I
couldn't lock it. I think unfiltered will be fine, especially now that
I know about little minnows.

Unfilter is okay.... but just out of curiousity, do you have a porch light?
You could always put one of those socket things in it, and screw the light
back in. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
As for no electricity, the only way to run an extension cord would be to
leave a window ajar. I'm not crazy about doing that because then I
couldn't lock it. I think unfiltered will be fine, especially now that
I know about little minnows.


Unfilter is okay.... but just out of curiousity, do you have a porch light?
You could always put one of those socket things in it, and screw the light
back in. ~ jan


Now THAT is a good idea! Gives me some more options.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Ummm, Elaine...
You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
yard as to not eat after handling it. Let me explain what can happen...
You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir rains
or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs off the
wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I just
read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they made.
It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become saturated
with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed, they later
had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt and sod to get
rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's
way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet it
probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that the
koi kote guys say can be applied to wood too. I would ask them about your
wood idea and see what they say. Maybe you can get away with something
other than pressure treated wood and just coat it with the epoxy I used.
Their site is www.koi-koteusa.com
"Elaine T" wrote in message
.. .
~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
As for no electricity, the only way to run an extension cord would be to
leave a window ajar. I'm not crazy about doing that because then I
couldn't lock it. I think unfiltered will be fine, especially now that
I know about little minnows.


Unfilter is okay.... but just out of curiousity, do you have a porch
light?
You could always put one of those socket things in it, and screw the
light
back in. ~ jan


Now THAT is a good idea! Gives me some more options.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Wildkarrde wrote:

You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
yard as to not eat after handling it.

No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
"end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.

Let me explain what can happen...
You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
off the
wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I

Do you know what the poison is?

just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed,
they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
and sod to get

Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds, now,
because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
danger.

rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's

That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge variation
in poisons.

way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
it
probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
the

Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time after,
it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.

The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.
--
derek

I said USUALLY labeled. The fact is that yes it is arsenic and frankly
arsenic is poisonour, period. Why anyone would want to just build something
that housed living beings out of something containing poison is beyond me.
But hey, I was just trying to get Elaine's attention to the matter before
something of hers went wrong. There was a hint of sarcasm to your reply to
me that was unwarranted, since as I said my goal was to get her attention to
a potential problem.
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Wildkarrde wrote:

You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the
lumber
yard as to not eat after handling it.

No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
"end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.

Let me explain what can happen...
You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
off the
wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I

Do you know what the poison is?

just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for
childrens
climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were
removed,
they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
and sod to get

Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds,
now,
because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
danger.

rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it
there's

That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge
variation
in poisons.

way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
it
probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
the

Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time
after,
it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.

The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.
--
derek