"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"George" wrote in message
news:vsKme.20927$IC6.144@attbi_s72...

"Paul" wrote in message
news
Around 40-ppms........Thanks

That is a little low, but not dangerlously so. If it were me, I'd just
add
some limestone rocks to the pond and leave it at that. I have a
limestone
waterfall, and my general hardness stays right at 80 mg/L, which is
normal
for freshwater ponds.
=======================
And they're totally safe. They raise it slowly and gradually - no shock
to
the fish.
--

Exactly. And the limestone keeps the alkalinity from falling.

Like how much Limestone. One big piece or smaller ones. Thanks...
"Courageous" wrote in message
...

Exactly. And the limestone keeps the alkalinity from falling.

In fact, the more that the alkalinity falls (i.e., the water is
becoming acidic), the more likely the limestone will react with
the acids in the water to, um, increase alkalinity.

This is why certain fine organic sands are to be preferred in a
marine environment, where higher alkalinity is particularly
important.

C//

"Courageous" wrote in message
...

Exactly. And the limestone keeps the alkalinity from falling.

In fact, the more that the alkalinity falls (i.e., the water is
becoming acidic), the more likely the limestone will react with
the acids in the water to, um, increase alkalinity.

This is why certain fine organic sands are to be preferred in a
marine environment, where higher alkalinity is particularly
important.

C//

In a marine environment, it is critical to have either aragonite sea sand
or a crushed coral substrate to prevent both Alkalinity and pH crashes.

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Like how much Limestone. One big piece or smaller ones. Thanks...
"Courageous" wrote in message
...

Exactly. And the limestone keeps the alkalinity from falling.

In fact, the more that the alkalinity falls (i.e., the water is
becoming acidic), the more likely the limestone will react with
the acids in the water to, um, increase alkalinity.

This is why certain fine organic sands are to be preferred in a
marine environment, where higher alkalinity is particularly
important.

C//


I don't know that there is a specific formula as not all limestone is the
same. Limestones vary greatly in their solubility and hardness. I have
about 300-400 lbs of it built up as a waterfall and for structural support
for my biofilter in one end my 1,400-gallon pond (although not all of it is
under water). Nearly all of it is dolomitic limestone (high magnesium
Limestone containing a significant fraction of dolomite), so it is harder
than pure limestone (which has calcite as a primary mineral) and has a
relatively low solubility. Even so, enough of it gets dissolved over time
that it keeps both the pH and the alkalinity in the proper ranges. Oh, and
always clean the rock before use.

"George" wrote in message
news:iKdne.25983$IC6.13788@attbi_s72...

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Like how much Limestone. One big piece or smaller ones. Thanks...
"Courageous" wrote in message
...

Exactly. And the limestone keeps the alkalinity from falling.

In fact, the more that the alkalinity falls (i.e., the water is
becoming acidic), the more likely the limestone will react with
the acids in the water to, um, increase alkalinity.

This is why certain fine organic sands are to be preferred in a
marine environment, where higher alkalinity is particularly
important.

C//


I don't know that there is a specific formula as not all limestone is the
same. Limestones vary greatly in their solubility and hardness. I have
about 300-400 lbs of it built up as a waterfall and for structural
support for my biofilter in one end my 1,400-gallon pond (although not
all of it is under water). Nearly all of it is dolomitic limestone (high
magnesium Limestone containing a significant fraction of dolomite), so it
is harder than pure limestone (which has calcite as a primary mineral)
and has a relatively low solubility. Even so, enough of it gets
dissolved over time that it keeps both the pH and the alkalinity in the
proper ranges. Oh, and always clean the rock before use.

Oh yea, and you should have these rocks in an area where water can flow
over them. It helps.

On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:04:13 -0400, "Paul"
wrote:

Like how much Limestone. One big piece or smaller ones. Thanks...
"Courageous" wrote in message
.. .

Exactly. And the limestone keeps the alkalinity from falling.

In fact, the more that the alkalinity falls (i.e., the water is
becoming acidic), the more likely the limestone will react with
the acids in the water to, um, increase alkalinity.

I've learned different people seem to have a little different
experience and I'd like to share mine. I've been using ground garden
limestone from the garden shop for a number of years. I place about
2 or 3 cups in a sock, tie the top and toss it into the flow of the
water going through the filter. I also add another couple cups
around the pond. The reason for the other couple cups is limestone
doesn't dissolve quickly like baking soda and quite frankly is a bit
frightening after a heavy rain. (Limestone dissolves in less than pH
7.8.) I just don't get the KH readings I feel I should, probably
because the limestone is working so slowly. My normal pH readings
are 7.8 to 8.2 and KH drops after a rain, sometimes as low as one
degree, (1 degree = 17.9 ppm.) but the pH never goes below 7.0 and the
fish don't seem to mind. In fact the seem more active after a rain
nibbling at the liner and collar stones they haven't been able to
reach before.

Regards,

Hal

Exactly. And the limestone keeps the alkalinity from falling.

In fact, the more that the alkalinity falls (i.e., the water is
becoming acidic), the more likely the limestone will react with
the acids in the water to, um, increase alkalinity.

This is why certain fine organic sands are to be preferred in a
marine environment, where higher alkalinity is particularly
important.

C//

My normal pH readings
are 7.8 to 8.2 and KH drops after a rain, sometimes as low as one
degree, (1 degree = 17.9 ppm.) but the pH never goes below 7.0

What time of day did you get this reading? Early morning, right before
dawn gives the lowest reading. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Hal" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:04:13 -0400, "Paul"
wrote:

Like how much Limestone. One big piece or smaller ones. Thanks...
"Courageous" wrote in message
. ..

Exactly. And the limestone keeps the alkalinity from falling.

In fact, the more that the alkalinity falls (i.e., the water is
becoming acidic), the more likely the limestone will react with
the acids in the water to, um, increase alkalinity.

I've learned different people seem to have a little different
experience and I'd like to share mine. I've been using ground garden
limestone from the garden shop for a number of years. I place about
2 or 3 cups in a sock, tie the top and toss it into the flow of the
water going through the filter. I also add another couple cups
around the pond. The reason for the other couple cups is limestone
doesn't dissolve quickly like baking soda and quite frankly is a bit
frightening after a heavy rain. (Limestone dissolves in less than pH
7.8.) I just don't get the KH readings I feel I should, probably
because the limestone is working so slowly. My normal pH readings
are 7.8 to 8.2 and KH drops after a rain, sometimes as low as one
degree, (1 degree = 17.9 ppm.) but the pH never goes below 7.0 and the
fish don't seem to mind. In fact the seem more active after a rain
nibbling at the liner and collar stones they haven't been able to
reach before.

Regards,

Hal

That is normal. And a 17.0 ppm drop in your alkalinity is nothing to be
worried about as long as it is in the normal range to begin with(~80 ppm).

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:10:44 -0700, ~ janj JJsPond.us
wrote:

My normal pH readings
are 7.8 to 8.2 and KH drops after a rain, sometimes as low as one
degree, (1 degree = 17.9 ppm.) but the pH never goes below 7.0

What time of day did you get this reading? Early morning, right before
dawn gives the lowest reading. ~ jan

I don't recall the time of day, just that it was after heavy rain and
rain has become acid here. Most days early pH readings are 7.6 to
7.8 and I call them 7.8 because that is where it is going even if it
is 7.6. I think limestone is slow, but so far it has been very
reliable.

Regards,

Hal

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:05:35 GMT, " George"
wrote:

That is normal. And a 17.0 ppm drop in your alkalinity is nothing to be
worried about as long as it is in the normal range to begin with(~80 ppm).

You must be right, but baking soda gives higher readings much sooner.
I couldn't keep the numbers up with baking soda though. I even tried
double and triple dosing, but it was gone in a week. After the bout
with string algae I gave up on baking soda and plaster of Paris. I
just use limestone and ignore the numbers until they look better.

Regards,

Hal

"Hal" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:05:35 GMT, " George"
wrote:

That is normal. And a 17.0 ppm drop in your alkalinity is nothing to be
worried about as long as it is in the normal range to begin with(~80
ppm).

You must be right, but baking soda gives higher readings much sooner.
I couldn't keep the numbers up with baking soda though. I even tried
double and triple dosing, but it was gone in a week. After the bout
with string algae I gave up on baking soda and plaster of Paris. I
just use limestone and ignore the numbers until they look better.

Regards,

Hal

Baking soda is a temperary solution, at best. Adding limestone rocks to
your water flow is the best solution, IMHO. By the way, alkalinity has
little affect on string algae, since it is present as a result of high
nutrient load in the water (aka, high nitrate concentrations).

Baking soda is a temperary solution, at best. Adding limestone rocks to
your water flow is the best solution, IMHO. By the way, alkalinity has
little affect on string algae, since it is present as a result of high
nutrient load in the water (aka, high nitrate concentrations).

Alkalinity does have an affect if the pH is too high or too low, most water
plants that we use take up nutrients best when pH is 7.2 to 8.2, even the
bacteria in our filters and our ponds work best between those numbers.
Thus, if your pond is 8.5 and the desirable plants are not absorbing the
majority of nutrients, one is going to have more problems with algae.
There is always some type of algae that can live in whatever extreme our
ponds are in, but they can't survive (as well) without a food supply. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"~ janj JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Baking soda is a temperary solution, at best. Adding limestone rocks to
your water flow is the best solution, IMHO. By the way, alkalinity has
little affect on string algae, since it is present as a result of high
nutrient load in the water (aka, high nitrate concentrations).

Alkalinity does have an affect if the pH is too high or too low, most
water
plants that we use take up nutrients best when pH is 7.2 to 8.2, even the
bacteria in our filters and our ponds work best between those numbers.
Thus, if your pond is 8.5 and the desirable plants are not absorbing the
majority of nutrients, one is going to have more problems with algae.
There is always some type of algae that can live in whatever extreme our
ponds are in, but they can't survive (as well) without a food supply. ~
jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Here is a good article that discusses the relationship between alkalinity
and pH:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

My statement above made the assumption that the pH was stable at the
appropriate levels.