On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Mike Lyle wrote:

I'd never boil, though: for my taste, it spoils the flavour. I've never
bothered with measuring OG, either: I just work on the principle that
every quarter-pound of sugar in a gallon, if fermented right out,
raises the alcohol by 1%. So for most fruits, three pounds or so, added
in two or three stages, plus some grape juice or concentrate, is about
right.

Quarter of a pound of sugar will produce 1.5% alcohol in every gallon
(source: Peter Duncan and Brian Acton - forgotten the name of the book
as I don't have it here in Normandy).

And adding three pounds of sugar all in one go is likely to inhibit the
yeast and the fermentation will possibly have difficulty in starting.

I suppose that three pounds of sugar will produce a wine heavy in
alcohol but is that the primary aim of making a pleasant wine? For
myself, when I make blackberry wine (members of my family are allergic
to red wine and so I have to make a fruit wine for them) I put in no
more than two and a quarter pounds of sugar. That makes a wine pleasant
enough for drinking and cooking (boeuf bourgignonne, for instance).

I'm not even sure that three pounds of sugar will ferment right out to
produce a dry wine. That would be around 18% alcohol and even a yeast
with a high alcohol toleration would never achieve more than around 16%.
Most ordinary wine yeasts will stop fermenting at around 13% - 14%.

My white grapes usually achieve a gravity of 1.075 which is about two
pounds of sugar in every gallon. That produces a wine of 12% alcohol
which is around the level found in commercial wines, and pleasant enough
for me!

And you're right - never, NEVER, boil the fruit for wine-making,
especially if it contains pectin. If you do the haze will never clear.

David (in Normandy!)

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

The message
from David Rance contains these words:


And you're right - never, NEVER, boil the fruit for wine-making,
especially if it contains pectin. If you do the haze will never clear.

David (in Normandy!)

That confirms a conclusion I was just reaching. I started a few
different wines last summer and have had problems with them not
clearing. On comparing notes with a neighbour, I was wondering whether
it was because I'd added boiling water to the fruit. I shall try
everything cold this year.

My other concern is to try to make wine as organically as possible. I
presume Sodium metabisulphite is fairly harmless but wouldn't qualify as
organic. What would organic wine-makers use to sterilise their
equipment?

Janet G

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, Janet Galpin wrote:

And you're right - never, NEVER, boil the fruit for wine-making,
especially if it contains pectin. If you do the haze will never clear.

David (in Normandy!)

That confirms a conclusion I was just reaching. I started a few
different wines last summer and have had problems with them not
clearing. On comparing notes with a neighbour, I was wondering whether
it was because I'd added boiling water to the fruit. I shall try
everything cold this year.

My other concern is to try to make wine as organically as possible. I
presume Sodium metabisulphite is fairly harmless but wouldn't qualify as
organic. What would organic wine-makers use to sterilise their
equipment?

I'm not sure that even organic winemakers can do away with sulphur for
sterilising (no matter what they may say!). I see no harm in adding one
Campden tablet to every gallon (in the case of fruit wines that's about
four pounds of fruit). Providing you are scrupulously clean then it
shouldn't be necessary to add any more. I never do.

The reason I am sceptical about organic grape wines is that it is
virtually impossible to grow grapes without resorting to spraying
against the mildews (powdery and downy). If I didn't spray regularly I
would lose the whole crop - and have done in the past when I didn't
spray!

David (in Normandy!)

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

Janet Galpin wrote:

I presume Sodium metabisulphite is fairly harmless but wouldn't qualify as organic. What would organic wine-makers use to sterilise their equipment?

Janet G

Fairly harmless??

Not according to the chemical industry.

SAFETY DATA SHEET
SODIUM METABISULPHITE Page 1
Issued: 25/09/2002
Revision No: 1
1. IDENTIFICATION OF THE SUBSTANCE / PREPARATION AND OF THE COMPANY /
UNDERTAKING
Product name: SODIUM METABISULPHITE

Use / description of product: Harmful.

3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
Main hazards: Harmful if swallowed. Risk of serious damage to eyes.
4. FIRST AID MEASURES (SYMPTOMS)
Skin contact: There may be mild irritation at the site of contact.
Eye contact: There may be irritation and redness.
Ingestion: There may be soreness and redness of the mouth and throat.
There may be difficulty
swallowing. Nausea and stomach pain may occur. There may be vomiting.
Inhalation: Absorption through the lungs can occur causing symptoms
similar to those of ingestion.
4. FIRST AID MEASURES (ACTION)
Skin contact: Wash immediately with plenty of soap and water.
Eye contact: Bathe the eye with running water for 15 minutes.
Ingestion: Wash out mouth with water. Do not induce vomiting. If
conscious, give half a litre of water to
drink immediately. Transfer to hospital as soon as possible.
Inhalation: Remove casualty from exposure ensuring one's own safety
whilst doing so. Consult a doctor.

I presume Sodium metabisulphite is fairly harmless but wouldn't qualify
as organic. What would organic wine-makers use to sterilise their
equipment?

Janet G

Fairly harmless??

Not according to the chemical industry.

SAFETY DATA SHEET
SODIUM METABISULPHITE Page 1

Whoa everyone...
Sodium MetabisulphIte (with an "I") may be nasty but the chemical put in
wine is Sodium MetabisulphAte ("A").
Different chemical.

"David (in Normandy)" wrote in message
...
I presume Sodium metabisulphite is fairly harmless but wouldn't qualify
as organic. What would organic wine-makers use to sterilise their
equipment?

Janet G

Fairly harmless??

Not according to the chemical industry.

SAFETY DATA SHEET
SODIUM METABISULPHITE Page 1

Whoa everyone...
Sodium MetabisulphIte (with an "I") may be nasty but the chemical put in
wine is Sodium MetabisulphAte ("A").
Different chemical.
Sodium metabisulph ITE is the material used for sterilising the wine
equipment etc. and does end up in the wine.
Sodium metabisul ATE is a highly acid substance and is akin to solid
sulphuric acid and is nasty if you eat it. It's the main constituent of some
solid toilet cleaners.
I can guess that the French shove the latter in their wine.

Sodium metabisul ATE is a highly acid substance and is akin to solid
sulphuric acid and is nasty if you eat it. It's the main constituent of
some solid toilet cleaners.
I can guess that the French shove the latter in their wine.


Only if they run out of anti-freeze :-)

On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, David (in Normandy) wrote:

Sodium metabisul ATE is a highly acid substance and is akin to solid
sulphuric acid and is nasty if you eat it. It's the main constituent of
some solid toilet cleaners.
I can guess that the French shove the latter in their wine.


Only if they run out of anti-freeze :-)

Antifreeze was used in a highly publicised case more than twenty years
ago by a combine just outside Rust on the Neusiedler See in Austria in
order to sweeten the wine. The local small wine growers were outraged by
this and put up posters saying that their wine was good and did NOT
contain antifreeze. I still have one of these posters somewhere.

The net result of this was that Austrian wine was not imported to the UK
(and several other countries) for years afterwards which was a great
pity as they have some great wines which are totally different to any
others. Even a grape like Müller-Thurgau produces a very sweet wine in
Austria and quite different to that produced by the same grape in, for
instance, the Mosel-Saar-Ruwer area of Germany. Also they have their own
grape varieties not found elsewhere such as Grüner Veldliner and
Welschriesling (which, in spite of the name, is not a Riesling at all).

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, Rupert (W.Yorkshire) wrote:

Whoa everyone...
Sodium MetabisulphIte (with an "I") may be nasty but the chemical put in
wine is Sodium MetabisulphAte ("A").
Different chemical.
Sodium metabisulph ITE is the material used for sterilising the wine
equipment etc. and does end up in the wine.
Sodium metabisul ATE is a highly acid substance and is akin to solid
sulphuric acid and is nasty if you eat it. It's the main constituent of some
solid toilet cleaners.

I can guess that the French shove the latter in their wine.

They don't.

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, David (in Normandy) wrote:

I presume Sodium metabisulphite is fairly harmless but wouldn't qualify
as organic. What would organic wine-makers use to sterilise their
equipment?

Janet G

Fairly harmless??

Not according to the chemical industry.

SAFETY DATA SHEET
SODIUM METABISULPHITE Page 1

Whoa everyone...
Sodium MetabisulphIte (with an "I") may be nasty but the chemical put in
wine is Sodium MetabisulphAte ("A").
Different chemical.

Sorry, no! It is sodium metabisulphite. I have some here sold by Boots
for wine-making purposes and metabisulphite is what is on the label.
Crazy Horse is right about its effects but that is only when it is
concentrated. Obviously people would have to treat it with care.

As mentioned earlier, wine-makers burn sulphur in casks to sterilise
them. If you breathed in the fumes then you would suffer the same
symptoms that Crazy Horse describes.

I was always taught the use sodium metabisulphite with care by my father
as it is used in a fixing bath for black and white photography.

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

David (in Normandy!)

--
David Rance
http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados,
France

Two David's in Normandy posting on URG - now that does sound confusing :-)
(Un)fortunately I can't say narrow it down and say "David in Calvados" since
it appears we both live there too.
Perhaps I could sign my posts David (near Vire, Normandy) since we are
fairly close to the town.
It is only a matter of time I suppose before there are other David's in Vire
in Calvados in Normandy posting too.
There seems to be more Brits around here than French :-)
Ou revoir!
David near Vire in Calvados in Normandy in France.

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, David (in Normandy) wrote:

David (in Normandy!)

--
David Rance
http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados,
France

Two David's in Normandy posting on URG - now that does sound confusing :-)
(Un)fortunately I can't say narrow it down and say "David in Calvados" since
it appears we both live there too.
Perhaps I could sign my posts David (near Vire, Normandy) since we are
fairly close to the town.
It is only a matter of time I suppose before there are other David's in Vire
in Calvados in Normandy posting too.
There seems to be more Brits around here than French :-)
Ou revoir!
David near Vire in Calvados in Normandy in France.

I must confess I signed myself David (in Normandy!) just to tease you!
But maybe I could pull rank and say that I'm the real David in Normandy
because I was here first (sixteen years ago). On the other hand you
could pull rank by saying that you're here all the time! Never mind, it
produced some amusement!

Still the Normans round here would say that you're the foreigner as you
live the other side of Condé-sur-Noireau. Have you noticed how
parochial they are? My next door neighbour was outraged once because
some people from St. Omer came and picked over the déchets in our
commune. "Who do they think they are?" he demanded.

But he was a great gardener. He looked after our vegetable garden while
we were away. When we were there we had the vegetables, when we were
back in England he had them. He kept rabbits in our hutches and sheep in
our meadow and he shared the meat with us. Unfortunately he died last
October. To be more precise, he committed suicide because he was 81
years old and was losing his strength rapidly to the point where he
couldn't do our gardens any more. He couldn't face life as a permanent
invalid unable to do any gardening and so he topped himself. He went up
to his cider shed and hanged himself.

David (only sometimes in Normandy!)
--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

Still the Normans round here would say that you're the foreigner as you
live the other side of Condé-sur-Noireau. Have you noticed how parochial
they are? My next door neighbour was outraged once because some people
from St. Omer came and picked over the déchets in our commune. "Who do
they think they are?" he demanded.

I've noticed there something going on between Parisians / none-Parisians.
The lady we bought our house off indicated with a snort and air of contempt
that the house just up from us is the weekend holiday home of a Parisian
family. I get the impression that Parisians are considered more of outsiders
than the Brits!


But he was a great gardener. He looked after our vegetable garden while we
were away. When we were there we had the vegetables, when we were back in
England he had them. He kept rabbits in our hutches and sheep in our
meadow and he shared the meat with us. Unfortunately he died last October.
To be more precise, he committed suicide because he was 81 years old and
was losing his strength rapidly to the point where he couldn't do our
gardens any more. He couldn't face life as a permanent invalid unable to
do any gardening and so he topped himself. He went up to his cider shed
and hanged himself.

Sad way to go. It must be horrible to lose ones independence and spiral into
decline, especially for someone so active.
--
David
.... Email address on website http://www.avisoft.co.uk
.... Blog at http://dlts-french-adventures.blogspot.com/

On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, David (in Normandy) wrote:

Still the Normans round here would say that you're the foreigner as you
live the other side of Condé-sur-Noireau. Have you noticed how parochial
they are? My next door neighbour was outraged once because some people
from St. Omer came and picked over the déchets in our commune. "Who do
they think they are?" he demanded.

I've noticed there something going on between Parisians / none-Parisians.
The lady we bought our house off indicated with a snort and air of contempt
that the house just up from us is the weekend holiday home of a Parisian
family. I get the impression that Parisians are considered more of outsiders
than the Brits!

Absolutely! The problem is that Normandy is further away from Paris than
the Parisians realise and they soon get fed up with the slow trek along
the A13 at weekends.

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

David Rance wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Mike Lyle wrote:

I'd never boil, though: for my taste, it spoils the flavour. I've never
bothered with measuring OG, either: I just work on the principle that
every quarter-pound of sugar in a gallon, if fermented right out,
raises the alcohol by 1%. So for most fruits, three pounds or so, added
in two or three stages, plus some grape juice or concentrate, is about
right.

Quarter of a pound of sugar will produce 1.5% alcohol in every gallon
(source: Peter Duncan and Brian Acton - forgotten the name of the book
as I don't have it here in Normandy).

Yes, you're right: sorry. I find even my own notes say so. I haven't
done it for two years. Memory like, er, what do you call those things
with holes in?

And adding three pounds of sugar all in one go is likely to inhibit the
yeast and the fermentation will possibly have difficulty in starting.

Yes: hence my suggestion of adding it in two or three stages. Like
yours, my target is, or was, about 12%.
[...]

And you're right - never, NEVER, boil the fruit for wine-making,
especially if it contains pectin. If you do the haze will never clear.

Another poster has mentioned the question of sterilisation. Sulphur and
bleach, or fancy proprietary products (also chlorine-based, I suppose),
are the only methods I know about: copper sulphate's allowed under
organic rules in Bordeaux mixture, so I don't see why a sulphite
shouldn't be allowed for sterilising. In the old days, I think they
used to sterilise casks by fumigating them with burning sulphur.

To stabilise finished wine, Campden tablets (sodium metabisulphite) are
usual; but some people react to it, so ascorbic acid (vitamin C) can be
used instead -- though I've never tried it. I wouldn't be surprised to
learn that sulphite isn't organically acceptable as an additive in the
wine itself: producers probably rely on good hygiene to protect the
wine in bottle. But when your only customer is yourself, you can bend
the rules.

--
Mike.