"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
how can I know where you food comes from,

I don't know, but your statement above indicated that you do.

You lied, again.

How can I know where your food comes from

You should have thought of that before you blurted out "most of your
food ingredients are actually imported from water deficient countries ...".

when you are embarassed to tell us

False. I told you what I eat early in the thread, and just have again.

look on the packet or tell us what
you ate today and where that was from

You have a list of the sort of foods I eat above; you've been asked
for examples and even given carte blanche to tell us the worst case
scenario, but if you can't support your claim, as per usual, so be it.

so why don't you tell us what you ate today, and where your food actually
comes from or are you still embarassed about it

I eat the sort of foods that were listed above every day. Indeed we
all eat those sorts of foods, so let us know what we should avoid..

Of course, anything to do with the livestock industry, anywhere..

'Water, wheat and beef

All farming needs water. But the amount of water needed to produce
a pound of beef is far greater than that required for a pound of wheat.

Water usage

Earth is two-thirds water, and only 0.06 per cent of this is fresh
water and even less of this is available as drinking water.

Animal agriculture uses huge amounts of water, energy and chemicals,
often with little regard for the long-term adverse effects. Between
1960 and 2000 worldwide usage of water doubled (25). Agriculture
uses 70 per cent of all water, while in many developing countries the
figure is as high as 85 to 95 per cent (26). Many irrigation systems
are pumping water from underground reservoirs much faster than
they can ever be recharged.

The production of meat is an inefficient use of such a vital limited
resource. [...] The University of California studied water use in
their state, where most agricultural land is irrigated, and said it uses
between 20 to 30 gallons of water to produce vegetables such as
tomatoes, potatoes and carrots to create an edible pound of food.
It takes 441 gallons of water to make a pound of beef (28).

Fresh water, once a seemingly abundant resource, is now becoming
scarce in many regions and that poses a real threat to the stability
of the world. Numerous countries are in dispute over water supplies,
and the seeds of future wars are clearly beginning to germinate.
...'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/planetonaplate.htm

In the US:

'Feed-grain farming guzzles water, too. In California, now the
United States' leading dairy state, livestock agriculture consumes
nearly one-third of all irrigation water. Similar figures apply across
the western United States, including areas using water from
dwindling aquifers. The beef feedlot center of the nation -- Colorado,
Kansas, Nebraska, and the Texas panhandle -- relies on crops raised
with water pumped out of an underground water source called the
Ogallala aquifer, portions of which have been severely depleted.
With half of the grain and hay fed to American beef cattle growing
on irrigated land, water inputs for beef production mount. More
than 3,000 liters of water are used to produce a kilogram of
American beef. (Reisner & Bates 1990; Sweeten 1990; Weeks et al.
1988; Oltjen 1991; Ward, Dept. Animal Sciences)
...'
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/env_animalfarming.htm

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
how can I know where you food comes from,

I don't know, but your statement above indicated that you do.

You lied, again.

How can I know where your food comes from

You should have thought of that before you blurted out "most of your
food ingredients are actually imported from water deficient countries
...".

good, so where do your food ingredients come from then?

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
how can I know where you food comes from,

I don't know, but your statement above indicated that you do.

You lied, again.

How can I know where your food comes from

You should have thought of that before you blurted out "most of your
food ingredients are actually imported from water deficient countries
...".

good, so where do your food ingredients come from then?

For argument's sake, and because it involves everyone, let's
say that my "food ingredients" come from all over the world.
Now tell us what should be avoided (support with evidence).

Why won't you comment on the inefficient overuse of water
for the livestock industry, jim? You are too embarassed to?

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
how can I know where you food comes from,

I don't know, but your statement above indicated that you do.

You lied, again.

How can I know where your food comes from

You should have thought of that before you blurted out "most of your
food ingredients are actually imported from water deficient countries
...".

good, so where do your food ingredients come from then?

For argument's sake, and because it involves everyone, let's
say that my "food ingredients" come from all over the world.
Now tell us what should be avoided (support with evidence).

simple
Don't eat imported food.
Stick with UK seasonal vegetables
After all you are a vegetarian


Why won't you comment on the inefficient overuse of water
for the livestock industry, jim? You are too embarassed to?

don't need to, you rant on about it all the time
but it has taken over a week to admit that you are every bit as guilty

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
how can I know where you food comes from,

I don't know, but your statement above indicated that you do.

You lied, again.

How can I know where your food comes from

You should have thought of that before you blurted out "most of your
food ingredients are actually imported from water deficient countries
...".

good, so where do your food ingredients come from then?

For argument's sake, and because it involves everyone, let's
say that my "food ingredients" come from all over the world.
Now tell us what should be avoided (support with evidence).

simple
Don't eat imported food.

That rules out livestock products then, as you use imported feed.
... and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

After all you are a vegetarian

So what. We all eat (-need- to eat, for survival and good health)
vegetables, fruits, nuts, legumes and so on. Try living without.

Why won't you comment on the inefficient overuse of water
for the livestock industry, jim? You are too embarassed to?

don't need to, you rant on about it all the time

You do need to, as you are trying to shift the blame onto others.

but it has taken over a week to admit that you are every bit as guilty

I have not. There's no way I could be. It is inefficient unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output, that's
nearly twice as much as would be used for plant foods alone - and
~you~ try to blame foods being produced for human beings directly.

Shame on you, webster. Maybe one day you'll find a backbone.

"pearl" wrote in message ...
It is inefficient unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output

Saving a few gallons in UK is not going to make those gallons magically appear in the Sahara. If this country ever gets near a water shortage it will be because we ALL waste water on washing cars, sprinkling the lawn, flushing the toilet too many times and in a thousand other ways - to blame it on meat producers is rather fuzzy logic - their contribution to water usage (both globally and in UK) pales into insignificance when compared to the wasteful usage by Joe Public.

"Remus" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message ...
It is inefficient unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output

Saving a few gallons in UK is not going to make those gallons magically appear in the Sahara.

'According to various sources, the Sahara Desert (or rather, desert-like
condition) is expanding southward at a fluctuating, rough average of
2-6 miles per year, with livestock production the principal cause.

"There were those who even claimed that the huge Sahara Desert was
a man-made product caused by shepherds burning the jungle, and by
the subsequent overgrazing of ever larger herds of goats and sheep.
Modern research has proved this to be so.
--Thor Heyerdahl, Fatu-Hiva

"Recent research has demonstrated that the Sahara was covered with
trees as recently as 6, 000 B.C., and that it was turned into a desert
by nomadic tribes that burned the trees to provide grazing areas for
their herds.
--Jacques Cousteau, The Ocean World

Only 6000 years ago the Sahara Desert was largely covered with trees,
brush, and grass, and has since become arid. Much evidence also
indicates that, as is the case in many of the world's drylands, livestock
grazing was a significant contributor to this aridification. Contemporary
livestock herding over more than 2/3 of the USA-sized, sandy, barren
wasteland we now call the Sahara Desert continues to deplete what
scant soil, vegetation, and water sources remain. Stock raising is
carried on wherever possible with little regard for sustained yield or
environmental consequences. However, livestock ownership here is
less a matter of survival than tradition, honor, and glory.
.....'
http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html

If this country ever gets near a water shortage it will be because we ALL waste water on washing cars, sprinkling the lawn,
flushing the toilet too many times and in a thousand other ways - to blame it on meat producers is rather fuzzy logic - their
contribution to water usage (both globally and in UK) pales into insignificance when compared to the wasteful usage by Joe Public.


Maybe. But I haven't blamed that on UK "meat producers".

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
how can I know where you food comes from,

I don't know, but your statement above indicated that you do.

You lied, again.

How can I know where your food comes from

You should have thought of that before you blurted out "most of your
food ingredients are actually imported from water deficient
countries
...".

good, so where do your food ingredients come from then?

For argument's sake, and because it involves everyone, let's
say that my "food ingredients" come from all over the world.
Now tell us what should be avoided (support with evidence).

simple
Don't eat imported food.

That rules out livestock products then, as you use imported feed.

yes, but I admit it


.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE




Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?


After all you are a vegetarian

So what. We all eat (-need- to eat, for survival and good health)
vegetables, fruits, nuts, legumes and so on. Try living without.

then why do you buy imported vegetables?


Why won't you comment on the inefficient overuse of water
for the livestock industry, jim? You are too embarassed to?

no, we use all that water that falls on grass or would otherwise go to waste


don't need to, you rant on about it all the time

You do need to, as you are trying to shift the blame onto others.

but it has taken over a week to admit that you are every bit as guilty

I have not. There's no way I could be. It is inefficient unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output, that's
nearly twice as much as would be used for plant foods alone - and
~you~ try to blame foods being produced for human beings directly.

Shame on you, webster. Maybe one day you'll find a backbone.

I'm not the one who took over a week to admit what she eats and still cannot
conceed that by importing vegetables she is importing water
Also if water is such a big deal, I'd point out that the amount used in
agriculture in the UK is less than is used by the domestic population


Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in
message
how can I know where you food comes from,

I don't know, but your statement above indicated that you do.

You lied, again.

How can I know where your food comes from

You should have thought of that before you blurted out "most of your
food ingredients are actually imported from water deficient
countries
...".

good, so where do your food ingredients come from then?

For argument's sake, and because it involves everyone, let's
say that my "food ingredients" come from all over the world.
Now tell us what should be avoided (support with evidence).

simple
Don't eat imported food.

That rules out livestock products then, as you use imported feed.

yes, but I admit it

Wow.

.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE

Crops aren't being irrigated there yet?

Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?

If it's that simple you should be able to provide evidence
that vegetable production is causing water shortages. In
fact it is the extensive deforestation to create pasture and
feedcrops that has caused aridization; now compounded
by the need to irrigate to keep up your omnivorous habit.

'(i) Micro-climate: Deforestation of TRF leads to drastic
changes in microclimate (Lal and Cummings, 1979), as
outlined in Fig. 6. In general, deforestation eliminates the
buffering effect of vegetation cover and accentuates the
extremes. Fluctuations in micro-climatic parameters are
greatly enhanced (e.g., relative humidity, maximum and
minimum temperatures for soil and air). Deforestation
decreases rainfall effectiveness and increases aridization
of the climate. Forest removal increases the magnitude
and intensity of net radiation reaching the soil surface.
Ghuman and Lal (1987) observed that in south central
Nigeria, on average, 10.5 and ll.5 MJ/m2/day of insolation
were received on a cleared site compared to 0.4 and 0.3
MJ/m2/day in the forest during the dry seasons of 1984
and 1985, respectively. There was no appreciable
difference in solar radiation received under forest during
the rainy (May) and dry (December) seasons (Table 8).
Vegetation removal also increases wind velocity (Table 8).

Deforestation decreases the maximum relative humidity,
especially during mid-day. There is also a corresponding
increase in air temperature and evaporation rate. Perhaps
the most drastic effect of deforestation is on soil
temperature. The maximum soil temperature at I to 5 cm
depth can be 5° to 20°C higher on cleared land on a sunny
day compared with land under TRF cover. Because of
high soil evaporation, the soil moisture content of the
surface layer is also lower in cleared than in forested soil
(Fig. 7).
.....'
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbook...e/uu27se05.htm

After all you are a vegetarian

So what. We all eat (-need- to eat, for survival and good health)
vegetables, fruits, nuts, legumes and so on. Try living without.

then why do you buy imported vegetables?

People buy imported vegetables because a wide variety
of fresh produce is important to maintain good health.

Why won't you comment on the inefficient overuse of water
for the livestock industry, jim? You are too embarassed to?

no, we use all that water that falls on grass or would otherwise go to waste

You're forgetting about all that imported feed.

don't need to, you rant on about it all the time

You do need to, as you are trying to shift the blame onto others.

but it has taken over a week to admit that you are every bit as guilty

I have not. There's no way I could be. It is inefficient unsustainable
consumption for and by the livestock industry that is causing global
water shortages, - requiring 15 to 22 times the water for the same
amount, and at about 40 percent of global agricultural output, that's
nearly twice as much as would be used for plant foods alone - and
~you~ try to blame foods being produced for human beings directly.

Shame on you, webster. Maybe one day you'll find a backbone.

I'm not the one who took over a week to admit what she eats

Stop lying already, webster. I told you way back what I eat.

and still cannot
conceed that by importing vegetables she is importing water

You still can't provide evidence of vegetables causing drought.

Also if water is such a big deal, I'd point out that the amount used in
agriculture in the UK is less than is used by the domestic population

What percentage? A link with that would be helpful.

How many liters of water do bovines consume per day?