"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
yes, but I admit it

Wow.

.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE

Crops aren't being irrigated there yet?

some vegetables and potatoes

not such things as grazing land

I remember the summer of '95 in Essex. Grass all burned up.

yes, and did you see any irrigation of grassland because I travelled pretty
well right round the country that year and never


Any idea why England is experiencing this extended drought?

what extended drought, there is some shortage in some regions but talk about
extended drought in the west and you'd be laughed at


Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?

If it's that simple you should be able to provide evidence
that vegetable production is causing water shortages.

you just did, vegetables and potatoes are the only crops in the UK
needing
irrigation

Those crops have always been grown there, so they're not to blame.

duh, they need irrigation because more of them are being grown in larger
areas, therefore they are part of the problem


And for imported crops it is simple, work out the water content of
vegetables, multiply it by tons exported, that is the amount of water
that
country exports.
If that country is already water deficient, you are merely making things
worse by exporting vegetables

Why are water shortages occuring? Address and eliminate the cause.

'Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface,
mostly permanent pasture

yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for arable
cultivation

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
yes, but I admit it

Wow.

.. and the UK is rapidly becoming a water-deficient country too..

not for agriculture. May have to ration domestic use in the SE

Crops aren't being irrigated there yet?

some vegetables and potatoes

not such things as grazing land

I remember the summer of '95 in Essex. Grass all burned up.

yes, and did you see any irrigation of grassland because I travelled pretty
well right round the country that year and never

No.

Any idea why England is experiencing this extended drought?

what extended drought, there is some shortage in some regions but talk about
extended drought in the west and you'd be laughed at

'This is what has happened in south-east England. Two dry years
have reduced the amount of water available to both people and the
environment. You can see from the diagrams on the right that since
October 2004, south-east England has only had a few months of
average or above average.

Why is winter rainfall important?

Winter rainfall is vital for water resources because it fills reservoirs
and groundwater and increases river flows. As temperatures rise
in the spring and plants and trees start to grow, less rain reaches
rivers and groundwater.

The past two winters have been dry in most of England and Wales
which is unusual. South-east England relies on groundwater for
most of its water supply, so two dry winters meant groundwater
levels had not recovered at the end of the 2005-06 winter and this
led to the current water restrictions.

A wet May and August plus reduced demand helped the situation.
However, another dry winter could cause problems next summer
for those in the region.
...'
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk...sion=1&lang=_e

'Outlook

A wet autumn and a wet start to the winter have meant most
reservoirs have recovered and groundwater levels are improving.
In south-east England we are in a better position than this time
last year and the signs are encouraging, but the drought is not
over. If the weather changes and the rest of the winter is dry,
there could be further water resources problems next spring and
summer.
...'
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk...14767/1131486/

The question is, is it part of a trend like, conversely, flooding.

"Our study carried somewhat surprising results, showing that
although the major impact of deforestation on precipitation is
found in and near the deforested regions, it also has a strong
influence on rainfall in the mid and even high latitudes," said
Roni Avissar, lead author of the study, published in the April
2005 issue of the Journal of Hydrometeorology.
....'
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/..._rainfall.html

Stick with UK seasonal vegetables

I'd like to see evidence of vegetables causing water depletion.

Simple.
What is the water content of most vegetables?

If it's that simple you should be able to provide evidence
that vegetable production is causing water shortages.

you just did, vegetables and potatoes are the only crops in the UK
needing
irrigation

Those crops have always been grown there, so they're not to blame.

duh, they need irrigation because more of them are being grown in larger
areas, therefore they are part of the problem

False. The problem has been a lack of rain. A drought, in other words.

And for imported crops it is simple, work out the water content of
vegetables, multiply it by tons exported, that is the amount of water
that
country exports.
If that country is already water deficient, you are merely making things
worse by exporting vegetables

Why are water shortages occuring? Address and eliminate the cause.

'Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface,
mostly permanent pasture

yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for feedcrops.

And what's wrong with the UK soil, that it's 'unsuitable' as you claim?
Remember that Britain used to be almost entirely woodland. Will you
also say that "permanent pasture" is unable to support fruit orchards?

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
not such things as grazing land

I remember the summer of '95 in Essex. Grass all burned up.

yes, and did you see any irrigation of grassland because I travelled
pretty
well right round the country that year and never

No.

Any idea why England is experiencing this extended drought?

what extended drought, there is some shortage in some regions but talk
about
extended drought in the west and you'd be laughed at

'This is what has happened in south-east England. Two dry years
have reduced the amount of water available to both people and the
environment. You can see from the diagrams on the right that since
October 2004, south-east England has only had a few months of
average or above average.

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption


yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll probably
be able to grow bread making wheat


And what's wrong with the UK soil, that it's 'unsuitable' as you claim?
Remember that Britain used to be almost entirely woodland. Will you
also say that "permanent pasture" is unable to support fruit orchards?

indeed and the grazing of livestock and feeding of pigs in orchards has a
long history. A lot of work has been done in New Zealand on interspersing
timber and grazing never mind orchards and grazing

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

not such things as grazing land

I remember the summer of '95 in Essex. Grass all burned up.

yes, and did you see any irrigation of grassland because I travelled
pretty well right round the country that year and never

No.

Any idea why England is experiencing this extended drought?

what extended drought, there is some shortage in some regions but talk
about extended drought in the west and you'd be laughed at

'This is what has happened in south-east England. Two dry years
have reduced the amount of water available to both people and the
environment. You can see from the diagrams on the right that since
October 2004, south-east England has only had a few months of
average or above average.

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart disease, etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
...
In the early days there were four farmers within ten miles of Little
Salkeld who supplied the wheat, ..
...'
http://www.nw-enquirer.co.uk/weekend...607211107.html

'Arable crops grown in the UK

The UK is the fourth largest producer of cereal and oilseed crops
in the EU (after France, Germany and Poland) accounting for about
8% of total EU production. [....]

Within UK agriculture, arable crops account for about 16% of
total output. Cereals (and/or oilseeds) are grown on around 70,000
holdings across the country, the majority in the eastern part of
England, some in Scotland and a few in Wales and Northern Ireland.
This accounts for about 70% of all cropping on agricultural land,
though in terms of overall use, grass, rough grazing and forestry
between them take around 75% of the total available area. [..]

Wheat and barley are the most important cereal crops grown in the
United Kingdom. Production of oats and rye has declined drastically
whilst a new cross of rye and wheat, called triticale, has been
introduced. All these cereals are well suited to the UK's temperate
climate. [..]

Wheat

Wheat is the most widely grown arable crop in the UK covering
around 2 million hectares and producing about 15.5 million tonnes
each year. Wheat is a versatile crop and is found in thousands of
food products e.g. bread, cakes, biscuits and breakfast cereals.

Barley

Barley is grown on around 1.1 million hectares and produces an
output of around 6 million tonnes. About 2 million tonnes are used
in the production of malt, a key ingredient in beer and whisky. The
balance is largely used in animal feeds.

Oil seed rape

The bright yellow flowers of oil seed rape cover 0.5 million hectares
each year producing around 1.5 million tonnes of seed. The seed is
crushed to extract oil used in the food and animal feed industries,
with the residue being used as a high protein animal feed ingredient.

Oats

Oats represent around 3% of the total UK cereals area and are mostly
sown in the autumn months. About half of the oat crop is milled and
used for human consumption (e.g. breakfast cereals, cheese biscuits
and haggis), the balance being used for animal feed.
...
http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/crops/index.htm

And what's wrong with the UK soil, that it's 'unsuitable' as you claim?
Remember that Britain used to be almost entirely woodland. Will you
also say that "permanent pasture" is unable to support fruit orchards?

indeed and the grazing of livestock and feeding of pigs in orchards has a
long history. A lot of work has been done in New Zealand on interspersing
timber and grazing never mind orchards and grazing

Tsk... if only they'd thought of that much sooner....

'New Zealand, world-renowned for its sheep. With about
100,000 square miles, 80 million sheep, and 8 million cattle,
New Zealand has the world's highest livestock density -
equivalent to about 1200 sheep per square mile. Much of the
island nation is steep, rugged, densely forested, or otherwise
unproductive for livestock, so density in areas actually grazed
approaches 2000 sheep per square mile!

Were New Zealand not well-watered and lushly vegetated, it
could not support even a fraction of these animals. However,
environmental damage here can only be described as extreme.
About half of the country now resembles an immense golf
course covered chiefly with exotic vegetation. Forests that once
blanketed most of the islands have been reduced to 5% of their
original coverage. In large portions of the North Island "slips" --
or huge sections of topsoil -- are sliding off the overgrazed hills.
In the worst areas, former subtropical and temperate forest is
now virtual desert. Most of New Zealand's unique animal life is
gone, and some species are extinct or in danger of extinction,
due largely to livestock grazing and ranching practices.
...'
http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html

'The planet's mantle of trees has already declined by a third
relative to preagricultural times, and much of that remaining
is damaged or deteriorating. Historically, the demand for
grazing land is a major cause of worldwide clearing of forest
of most types. Currently, livestock production, fuel wood
gathering, lumbering, and clearing for crops are denuding a
conservatively estimated 40 million acres of the Earth's
forestland each year.
...
From woodland to grassland to desert, throughout most of
the inhabited globe, livestock production is a primary cause
of environmental deterioration and sustained degradation
that is, prevention of recovery. Many ancient civilizations in
southern Europe, North Africa, Arabia, the Indus Valley, India,
central Asia and elsewhere -declined under its impact, and the
vast majority of countries have serious livestock problems now.
....'
http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html

Another illustration of the effects of livestock grazing:

'The Forest Service defines range as "land that provides or is
capable of providing forage for grazing or browsing animals
[read: 'livestock']." By this definition more than 80% of the
West qualifies as range, including a complex array of more than
40 major ecosystem types, all of which have been significantly
degraded by ranching. ..
...
Numerous historical accounts do confirm drastic, detrimental
changes in plant and animal life, soil, water, and fire conditions
throughout most of the West. These reports progressively
establish livestock grazing as the biggest single perpetrator of
these changes, particularly considering that it was the only
significant land use over most of the West.

One of the most useful and informative descriptions of the early
West was that of Meriweather Lewis and William Clark on their
famous expedition across the northern Midwest, Rockies, and
Pacific Northwest from 1804 to 1806 (Thwaites 1959). Their
descriptions of the unconquered West are of a world we can
scarcely imagine: landscapes filled with wildlife; great diversities
of lush vegetation; highly productive, free-flowing rivers, creeks,
and springs; abundant, dark, fertile soil; unaltered, unimpeded fire
and other natural processes. Of the Montana plains, one excerpt
from Clark reads, "we observe in every direction Buffalow, Elk
Antelopes & Mule Deer inumerable and so jintle that we could
approach them near with great ease." Another states, We saw a
great number of buffaloe, Elk, common and Black tailed deer,
goats [pronghorn] beaver and wolves. ..

In the West today only ungrazed Yellowstone National Park
supports nearly this variety and density of large wild animals. ..

Lewis and Clark's and other historic journals attest that buffalo,
elk, deer, bighorns, pronghorn, mountain goats, moose, horses,
grizzly and black bears, wolves, foxes, cougars, bobcats,
beaver, muskrats, river otters, fish, porcupines, wild turkeys
and other "game" birds, waterfowl, snakes, prairie dogs and
other rodents, most insects, and the vast majority of wild
animals were all many times more abundant then than now. So
too were native plants; the journals describe a great abundance
and diversity of grasses and herbaceous vegetation, willows
and deciduous trees, cattails, rushes, sedges, wild grapes,
chokecherries, currants, wild cherries and plums, gooseberries,
"red" and "yellow" berries, service berries, flax, dock, wild
garlic and onions, sunflowers, wild roses, tansy, honeysuckle,
mints, and more, a large number being edible. Most of these
plants have been depleted through the many effects of livestock
grazing for 100 years and are today comparatively scarce.
...'
http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter3.html

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart disease,
etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

exactly so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of agriculture
you want.


yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the sunshine
that we need to guarantee production

I'm glad you've noticed OSR, you'll see a lot more of it when the EU turns
over 50% of our arable acreage for biodiesel
But you still haven't said where your food comes from I note

Jim Webster

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:08:22 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart disease,
etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

exactly so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of agriculture
you want.


yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

Another lie.

That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the sunshine
that we need to guarantee production.

There are no guarantees, that's life. The UK can grow pretty much
anything, if you choose to.

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart disease, etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

exactly

Really? What an insane attitude. Luckily, jim's kind are in the minority.
Most people are misinformed + addicted to fat (in this case animal fat).

so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of agriculture
you want.

Yes, you just said that. The question is, *why* is this happening?

yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

You say a lot of things. You are a veritable fount of BS, jim.

That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the sunshine
that we need to guarantee production

- BS. 'Only' 39% of British wheat is used as livestock feed.

I'm glad you've noticed OSR,

What's that?

you'll see a lot more of it when the EU turns
over 50% of our arable acreage for biodiesel

'Biofuels: Biodevastation, Hunger & False Carbon Credits
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/BiofuelsBiod...tionHunger.php

& appearing to be highly controversial in relevant circles.

But you still haven't said where your food comes from I note

Note everything you've snipped and failed to comment upon.

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

then they will have to cut domestic water consumption

Don't forget vegetables.. but it's all worth it.. even the heart
disease, etc.
And what about remaining native flora and fauna.. Who cares, eh, jim.

exactly

Really? What an insane attitude. Luckily, jim's kind are in the
minority.
Most people are misinformed + addicted to fat (in this case animal fat).


tut tut pearl

what I actually said, as can be seen, was
exactly so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of agriculture
you want.


so they are going to have to cut domestic water consumption, because
there is enough water falling for agriculture, whatever sort of
agriculture
you want.

Yes, you just said that. The question is, *why* is this happening?

too many people, using too much energy, too much water going on washing
cars, irrigating gardens, flushing toilets, etc etc



yep, and large areas in the UK, because that is where we produce
our
livestock here, is permanent pasture because it is unsuitable for
arable
cultivation

Arable land is, but a significant percentage is being used for
feedcrops.

in the UK a lot of arable land is incapable of growing bread making
wheat
and can only grow feed wheat, but as global warming increases we'll
probably
be able to grow bread making wheat

'WHETHER you're an avid baker or know next to nothing about
making bread, visiting the Watermill in Little Salkeld, Cumbria,
will make you want to get stuck in.
..

yep, as I said, we grow very little breadmaking wheat in the UK.

You say a lot of things. You are a veritable fount of BS, jim.

at least I don't selectively snip to change the sense of what people write




That is why we import bread making wheat, because we don't have the
sunshine
that we need to guarantee production

- BS. 'Only' 39% of British wheat is used as livestock feed.

exactly. And it is grown in the areas where it can be grown, the rest of the
land is unlikely to produce bread making wheat which is why more wheat isn't
grown


I'm glad you've noticed OSR,

What's that?

you mean you posted great screds of stuff about something you didn't
understand


you'll see a lot more of it when the EU turns
over 50% of our arable acreage for biodiesel

'Biofuels: Biodevastation, Hunger & False Carbon Credits
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/BiofuelsBiod...tionHunger.php

& appearing to be highly controversial in relevant circles.

But you still haven't said where your food comes from I note

Note everything you've snipped and failed to comment upon.
wriggle wriggle wriggle


where does your food come from
I long ago learned not to get lost in long circular arguments that were a
total waste of time. You keep trying to change the subject and get off the
embarassing issue that you don't know where your food comes from

Jim Webster