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Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs) (OT)
Hi Chris,
You Kerns are indeed a brutish lot! Having said that, whatever valuables I ever find here at Portland Bill, or Chesil Cove - (some chance). I'll keep. As for the police trying to keep people off the beach here... that does make me crease. What police? ... I once saw some on telly. ;-) Best wishes, Keith "Chris Hogg" wrote in message ... On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:26:17 -0000, "Keith \(Dorset\)" wrote: Dear all, This is a fundamental misunderstanding of cultures - yes 'cultures', between many of those who live by the sea and many, or most, who don't. Wrecking is a time-old tradition whereby coastal dwellers have always supplemented their often meagre earnings by salvaging items of value from the shoreline at the time of a wreck. Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking. Keith PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place. In the mid 16th century, the impoverished tin miners of west Cornwall had a fearsome reputation as wreckers. It is recorded by a local historian of the time that they could strip a wreck between tides (say 12 hrs), leaving little trace. Many hundreds would descend on the wreck, equipped with axes, saws etc. Even the ship's timbers would go. Hapless survivors were lucky to keep their clothes, let alone their possessions. Wrecks were regarded as fair game and sent by God. A prayer apparently offered up by a vicar on the Isles of Scilly when times were particularly hard, went something like this: "O Lord we pray, not that wrecks should happen, but if they do, let them happen on Scilly" A sailors' prayer from the time, when in the waters off south Cornwall (there are several versions): "From rocks and shoals and shifting sands And Breage and Germoe mens' hands Good Lord, deliver us." Breage and Germoe are two local mining villages; I live more or less between them. -- Chris E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs)
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 21:41:39 +0000, K wrote:
It's apparently not illegal provided that you do not attempt to hide it and you inform the official Receiver of Wrecks, so the goods may be returned to the owner if he/she wants them. Hence the handing out of forms to enable people to do this. Yes, it is not all commercial goods in those containers. One sad thing I heard was the fact that a South African family were moving all their possessions either to or from SA in one of those containers, and they could see their stuff being looted on the beach. Pam in Bristol |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs)
Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:19:59 -0000, "Mike Lyle" wrote: Martin wrote: [...] It really makes you wonder what the police are for. Well, OK then: what do you want them to do? I haven't heard that anybody's committed a crime. All those who took stuff from the wreck without completing a form committed a crime. No, as I understand it, you get 28 days to submit the form. I don't think the Receiver of Wreck stands there on the beach holding his hand out. The only thing that makes this incident different from daily occurrences up and down our coast seems to me to be the scale. Maybe breaking open a container would be criminal damage, of course; but they'd have a job making it stick. -- Mike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs)
On 23/1/07 22:32, in article ,
"Mike Lyle" wrote: snip Maybe breaking open a container would be criminal damage, of course; but they'd have a job making it stick. They were video'd doing it in at least one case. On the side of the container is written the names of the Swedish couple to whom the household goods belonged. There is no way anyone could imagine such things were new things being shipped from a factory. -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/ (remove weeds from address) |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs)
Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:32:55 -0000, "Mike Lyle" wrote: Martin wrote: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:19:59 -0000, "Mike Lyle" wrote: Martin wrote: [...] It really makes you wonder what the police are for. Well, OK then: what do you want them to do? I haven't heard that anybody's committed a crime. All those who took stuff from the wreck without completing a form committed a crime. No, as I understand it, you get 28 days to submit the form. I don't think the Receiver of Wreck stands there on the beach holding his hand out. The only thing that makes this incident different from daily occurrences up and down our coast seems to me to be the scale. So with zero police action who is going to know who didn't fill in a form when the 28 days are up? Luckily, even in this country it isn't a police responsibility to ensure we fill in civil service forms. This really is more complicated than it may look. No breaking and entering, no breach of the peace, nothing like that: just an awful lot of lost property with no immediately identifiable owners. Lost property, come to that, which will probably be valueless after the next tide if somebody doesn't "kindly rescue" it. How about being in the possession of an unimported untaxed vehicle with no proof of ownership? That sounds quite promising; but I suppose the salvage rules apply to motor vehicles as to anything else. Even wheeling it down a public road with no tax wouldn't actually be arrestable; and I'm sure the bikes were all safely on other vehicles. I really don't envy the police in situations like this: it doesn't make them look particularly good from one point of view, but they'd look worse if they started getting officious. -- Mike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs)
Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:00:41 -0000, "Mike Lyle" wrote: Martin wrote: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:32:55 -0000, "Mike Lyle" wrote: Martin wrote: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:19:59 -0000, "Mike Lyle" wrote: Martin wrote: [...] It really makes you wonder what the police are for. Well, OK then: what do you want them to do? I haven't heard that anybody's committed a crime. All those who took stuff from the wreck without completing a form committed a crime. No, as I understand it, you get 28 days to submit the form. I don't think the Receiver of Wreck stands there on the beach holding his hand out. The only thing that makes this incident different from daily occurrences up and down our coast seems to me to be the scale. So with zero police action who is going to know who didn't fill in a form when the 28 days are up? Luckily, even in this country it isn't a police responsibility to ensure we fill in civil service forms. This really is more complicated than it may look. No breaking and entering, no breach of the peace, nothing like that: just an awful lot of lost property with no immediately identifiable owners. Lost property, come to that, which will probably be valueless after the next tide if somebody doesn't "kindly rescue" it. How about being in the possession of an unimported untaxed vehicle with no proof of ownership? That sounds quite promising; but I suppose the salvage rules apply to motor vehicles as to anything else. Normal laws apply to vehicles, even if they have been taken from a wreck. Even wheeling it down a public road with no tax wouldn't actually be arrestable; No VAT has been paid on the vehicles, that is an offence. Arrestable? Doesn't there have to be a court order? I'd have thought it would have had to go through normal VAT recovery procedures before it became a police matter. We are seeing that it just isn't unlawful to possess ordinary stuff you've salvaged: that's what the 28 days thing is about. and I'm sure the bikes were all safely on other vehicles. I really don't envy the police in situations like this: it doesn't make them look particularly good from one point of view, but they'd look worse if they started getting officious. If they had acted quick and closed the beach, it would have looked better to any honest person. Well, I don't think that's the kind of thing they can do in Britain without a lot of deliberation. They've done it now, I believe; but it's a big step to stop you walking your dog on the beach just because somebody else may perhaps have committed a crime on that beach. Our politicians may like the idea, but it isn't British. Yet. -- Mike. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs)
"Sacha" wrote in message . uk... On 23/1/07 11:01, in article , "The Reid" wrote: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:12:10 +0000, Sacha wrote: If it's illegal, as is reported, why are the police merely handing out forms to be filled in and returned, telling them where the 'salvaged' goods have gone? The whole thing is utterly bizarre - why not just close off the beach until the shipping company's salvage people move in? one container had the personal effects of a Swedish couple moving to SA, nice. Oh, that was *awful*. A report said people were seen moving off with family portraits and obviously personal household effects and there were photographs lying around on the beach, showing that young couple. I wonder if the enquiry will show that ship to have been overloaded for the conditions. I know there's a large chunk of metal hanging underneath but it looked very top heavy to the untrained eye. -- There was something on the radio this morning, all right, yesterday morning now, to the effect that this ship had been aground before, about six months ago. That may or may not be true, and may or may not be relevant, but it brings up the old issue of seaworthiness and flags of convenience. Steve |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs) (OT)
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Robert wrote:
: Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in : appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking. : : PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with : judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place. Good luck to them I say. If someone has the cheek to put a ship like that to sea, endangering our coast, then they deserve no compassion and their cargo is 'fair game'. The only quite big problem I have with this ship's cargo is that the redistribution is causing more damage to the beach than the original containers were... But that's hardly fair to those people who were entrusting their personal belongings to a transport company and which were seen to be stolen when reported on television as, for instance, the couple who had emigrated to South Africa. Ok, so they were insured (I suppose) but you can't replace something with sentimental value. David -- David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Caversham, Reading, UK |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs)
On 24/1/07 00:07, in article , "shazzbat"
wrote: snip There was something on the radio this morning, all right, yesterday morning now, to the effect that this ship had been aground before, about six months ago. That may or may not be true, and may or may not be relevant, but it brings up the old issue of seaworthiness and flags of convenience. Well, at the least it raises the spectre of some careless navigation! -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/ (remove weeds from address) |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs) (OT)
On 24/1/07 09:04, in article , "David
Rance" wrote: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Robert wrote: : Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in : appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking. : : PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with : judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place. Good luck to them I say. If someone has the cheek to put a ship like that to sea, endangering our coast, then they deserve no compassion and their cargo is 'fair game'. The only quite big problem I have with this ship's cargo is that the redistribution is causing more damage to the beach than the original containers were... But that's hardly fair to those people who were entrusting their personal belongings to a transport company and which were seen to be stolen when reported on television as, for instance, the couple who had emigrated to South Africa. Ok, so they were insured (I suppose) but you can't replace something with sentimental value. David Whatever the rights and wrongs of the ship, the shipping company, insurance or the lack of it, it is NOT right to steal things that belong to others, whether it's a couple moving home or a large factory in China. And this was stealing, whether the law calls it that or not. The idea that the thieves have 28 days in which to fill in a form and return it is just a piece of passing the buck bureaucratic nonsense. The stuff taken from that beach is already appearing for sale on eBay. -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/ (remove weeds from address) |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs) (OT)
www.nsrafa.com
"David Rance" wrote in message ... On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Robert wrote: : Here in Dorset, often the whole community would venture out, often in : appalling weather to grab whatever was there for the taking. : : PS It is said that ships were sometime lured onto rocks with : judiciously placed lights so that wrecking could take place. Good luck to them I say. If someone has the cheek to put a ship like that to sea, endangering our coast, then they deserve no compassion and their cargo is 'fair game'. The only quite big problem I have with this ship's cargo is that the redistribution is causing more damage to the beach than the original containers were... But that's hardly fair to those people who were entrusting their personal belongings to a transport company and which were seen to be stolen when reported on television as, for instance, the couple who had emigrated to South Africa. Ok, so they were insured (I suppose) but you can't replace something with sentimental value. David and what about the owners of the cargos of old? The Whiskey Galores etc of all sorts of cargoes through the ages? Why should the rules 'suddenly change'? People keep on saying that 'things were better in the old days', right, here you have a bit of 'old days' thrust upon us, but it doesn't suit 'certain people'!! Rules for some but not others? :-((( Mike |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs) (OT)
"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk... On 24/1/07 09:04, in article , "David -- Sacha and here we have someone else who like to quote the past, wanting to change the rules on the very old 'business if you like' of beachcombing. Sacha you are either in the past or in the present. You CANNOT swap and change around. Press your case to outlaw beachcombing and lets have no more of 'when I was in Jersey .......' etc etc etc Mike -- .................................................. ......... Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association www.rnshipmates.co.uk www.nsrafa.com |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs)
On 24/1/07 10:20, in article ,
"Martin" wrote: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:24:36 -0000, "Mike Lyle" wrote: snip Well, I don't think that's the kind of thing they can do in Britain without a lot of deliberation. They've done it now, I believe; but it's a big step to stop you walking your dog on the beach just because somebody else may perhaps have committed a crime on that beach. Our politicians may like the idea, but it isn't British. Yet. It seems to be, they were just slow in reacting. The irony of the above is that some people who just went down to walk their dogs and have a look at what was going on, ended up giving in and hoicking up stuff for themselves. -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/ (remove weeds from address) |
Devon Beach (Free Pampers & BMWs)
On Jan 24, 10:20*am, Martin wrote: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:24:36 -0000, "MikeLyle" [...] Even wheeling it down a public road with no tax wouldn't actually be arrestable; No VAT has been paid on the vehicles, that is an offence. Arrestable? Doesn't there have to be a court order? I'd have thought it would have had to go through normal VAT recovery procedures before it became a police matter. We are seeing that it just isn't unlawful to possess ordinary stuff you've salvaged: that's what the 28 days thing is about.It is illegal to be in possession of goods on which VAT/taxes haven't been paid. Try entering UK with an untaxed unregistered m/bike. Did you ever see HM C&E VAT inspectors operating at an agricultural show? Oh, su but that's planned months in advance, with controlled exits and entrances closed at night, hotels booked, proper car parking, toilet facilities, all that. But I wonder how practicable it would be to get a task force of C&E officers down to a beach at short notice to go through the procedures 24 hours a day. In winter. We haven't even got enough to secure all our ports under normal conditions. and I'm sure the bikes were all safely on other vehicles. I really don't envy the police in situations like this: it doesn't make them look particularly good from one point of view, but they'd look worse if they started getting officious. If they had acted quick and closed the beach, it would have looked better to any honest person. Well, I don't think that's the kind of thing they can do in Britain without a lot of deliberation. They've done it now, I believe; but it's a big step to stop you walking your dog on the beach just because somebody else may perhaps have committed a crime on that beach. Our politicians may like the idea, but it isn't British. Yet. It seems to be, they were just slow in reacting. As I said to Sacha, I'm on the side of the coppers in this freak situation. -- Mike. |
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