Does anyone know of a supplier of these? I've given a customer the list
from the Plant Finder but none has it.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)

Sacha wrote:
Does anyone know of a supplier of these? I've given a customer the list
from the Plant Finder but none has it.

It has always been extremely rare in the UK and normally only seen in
country house estates and arboreta. Paignton Zoo have it, but I'm not
sure how long ago it was planted. An enquiry to their plants chappy
may reveal a source. Failing that, I suspect your customer will have
to extend his search to France. Although it is many years ago, I
remember montezumae being quite widely available amongst the wholesale
nurseries over there.

On 10/6/07 09:02, in article
, "Dave Poole"
wrote:

Sacha wrote:
Does anyone know of a supplier of these? I've given a customer the list
from the Plant Finder but none has it.

It has always been extremely rare in the UK and normally only seen in
country house estates and arboreta. Paignton Zoo have it, but I'm not
sure how long ago it was planted. An enquiry to their plants chappy
may reveal a source. Failing that, I suspect your customer will have
to extend his search to France. Although it is many years ago, I
remember montezumae being quite widely available amongst the wholesale
nurseries over there.

Thanks, David. I've suggested he talks to the chap at Dartington and also
the Plant for a Future database centre. I'll mention the France idea to
him. Apparently Exeter University had a wonderful one but it's gone. I
don't think they're very long lived and have no idea at what age they
produce seed.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)

Sacha wrote:

Thanks, David. I've suggested he talks to the chap at Dartington and also
the Plant for a Future database centre. I'll mention the France idea to
him. Apparently Exeter University had a wonderful one but it's gone. I
don't think they're very long lived and have no idea at what age they
produce seed.

If he hunts about a bit, he'll find that seeds are occasionally
available via several rare seeds suppliers such as B&T World Seeds.
This may be the best source since as a young plant, montezumae is not
especially slow growing and for the first few decades is quite
vigorous. The rather poor root system does not establish well if they
are too big when planted and a large pot grown specimen can sit doing
very little for several years. Seedlngs will always score over larger
plants.

Seeds need to be soaked for a day and then stratified for 6 weeks (mix
with damp perlite and place them in a poly-bag in the bottom of the
fridge) before sowing to break dormancy otherwise germination will be
very slow and erratic. Germinate at around 21C and harden the
seedlings off as soon as possible. They should be planted out in
final positions when about 10cms. high and need a sharply drained,
acidic soil.

Once established the young plants are remarkably drought tolerant and
cannot tolerate constantly wet conditions.. Montezumae is not that
hardy in some parts of the UK and even in the south, they need
protection for the first few winters. The seedlings are also prone to
damping-off in our cool humid conditions so they will need careful
management and treating with a fungicide as a preventative measure.

Although not noted for longevity, I don't think this pine is
especially short lived around 150 - 200 years is about the limit, but
our climate is normally cooler and wetter than its natural habitat,
which may increase susceptibility to disease. Coning usually
commences at about 8 - 10 years, but since it is normally a self
sterile species a single plant rarely produces viable seed.

On 10/6/07 11:01, in article
, "Dave Poole"
wrote:

Sacha wrote:

Thanks, David. I've suggested he talks to the chap at Dartington and also
the Plant for a Future database centre. I'll mention the France idea to
him. Apparently Exeter University had a wonderful one but it's gone. I
don't think they're very long lived and have no idea at what age they
produce seed.

snip
Although not noted for longevity, I don't think this pine is
especially short lived around 150 - 200 years is about the limit, but
our climate is normally cooler and wetter than its natural habitat,
which may increase susceptibility to disease. Coning usually
commences at about 8 - 10 years, but since it is normally a self
sterile species a single plant rarely produces viable seed.


Many, many thanks for all this useful - and interesting - information. Ours
was planted by Hyams who left here in 62 or 63. If only he'd planted two!
We've just had friends from California staying and one of their great
friends is a garden designer there. They're going to ask her if they she
can get us some seed. I'll also ask B&T World Seeds!


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)

Sacha wrote:
Does anyone know of a supplier of these? I've given a customer the
list from the Plant Finder but none has it.

architectural plants

I am on my second one. I grow it in a pot as a single stem pinching out all
but the central growing point, it makes a stunning tactile talking point. A
real teddy bear of a plant you just need to cuddle as soon as you see it

pk

On 10/6/07 12:37, in article , "p.k."
wrote:

Sacha wrote:
Does anyone know of a supplier of these? I've given a customer the
list from the Plant Finder but none has it.

architectural plants

I am on my second one. I grow it in a pot as a single stem pinching out all
but the central growing point, it makes a stunning tactile talking point. A
real teddy bear of a plant you just need to cuddle as soon as you see it

I've ordered some seed from B&T World Seeds, so it will be interesting to
see what does - or doesn't - come up. That said, I have to admit that I
greatly prefer Pinus patula, which we have 'up the field' or Cupressus
cashmeriana, which David P once gave me, to P. montezumae, rarity
notwithstanding! I suppose I'm not much into conifers so can't get too
worked up about any of them but my preferences have more elegance to me,
though the colour of P. montezumae is stunning. As it 'bites' me every
time I walk down the steps onto the big lawn, I can't call it too cuddly,
I'm afraid. ;-)

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)

On 10/6/07 12:37, in article , "p.k."
wrote:

Sacha wrote:
Does anyone know of a supplier of these? I've given a customer the
list from the Plant Finder but none has it.

architectural plants

I am on my second one. I grow it in a pot as a single stem pinching out all
but the central growing point, it makes a stunning tactile talking point. A
real teddy bear of a plant you just need to cuddle as soon as you see it

pk

Sorry, mean to send this pic of P. patula:
http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/pinpa01.jpg

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)

On Jun 10, 1:26 pm, Sacha wrote:
On 10/6/07 12:37, in article , "p.k."
Sorry, mean to send this pic of P. patula:http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/pinpa01.jpg


Goodness, that looks like my fringe on a good day.

Judith

On 10/6/07 14:10, in article
,
" wrote:

On Jun 10, 1:26 pm, Sacha wrote:
On 10/6/07 12:37, in article , "p.k."
Sorry, mean to send this pic of P.
patula:http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/pinpa01.jpg


Goodness, that looks like my fringe on a good day.

Judith


Neigh. ;-))
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)

On Jun 10, 3:30 pm, Sacha wrote:
On 10/6/07 14:10, in article
. com,

" wrote:
On Jun 10, 1:26 pm, Sacha wrote:
On 10/6/07 12:37, in article , "p.k."
Sorry, mean to send this pic of P.
patula:http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/pinpa01.jpg

Goodness, that looks like my fringe on a good day.

Judith

Neigh. ;-))
--
Sachahttp://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)

Neigh to you too!!!!

Judith

On 10/6/07 21:05, in article
,
" wrote:

On Jun 10, 3:30 pm, Sacha wrote:
On 10/6/07 14:10, in article
. com,

" wrote:
On Jun 10, 1:26 pm, Sacha wrote:
On 10/6/07 12:37, in article , "p.k."
Sorry, mean to send this pic of P.
patula:http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/pinpa01.jpg

Goodness, that looks like my fringe on a good day.

Judith

Neigh. ;-))
--


Neigh to you too!!!!

Judith


I try not to have a fringe but my hair defeats me and I *hate* it on my
face. The 'neigh' is because it makes me feel like a shaggy Dartmoor pony!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)

P. montezumae seems to be only intermittently available in the nursery trade here, probably when someone tries and succeeds in getting a batch of seeds to germinate, though there would always be some doubt over what they actually are. I asked the (now retired) conifer specialist at Little Missenden why he didn't grow them, and he said that the Mexicans wouldn't allow export of the seed, because they were protected (a rather silly attitude - surely some controlled export of the seed to maintain diversity in the reservoir of cultivated examples is desirable). But clearly from time to time seed do become available from cultivated sources, or otherwise. And they are more regularly available in the nursery trade in some other countries.

You can try to collect seed yourself from places like Bedgebury Pinetum - they are just allowed to rot on the ground so I don't see why you shouldn't pick some up and try. I think late autumn is the time to go. I did this once, but was not aware of the correct conditions to get them to germinate, and they didn't.

You need to be aware that a lot of the trees in collections labelled as P. montezumae are actually P. hartwegii. These will also cross easily, so the seeds one collects may be the cross even if the tree isn't. P. hartwegii (the correct modern name) was previously known as P. montezumae var hartwegii, so the label may actually have been "correct" at the time it was applied. Another superseded name for it, commonly seen on arboretum labels, and used in the nursery trade, is P. rudis.

Given the level of confusion, you may discover that P. hartwegii alias P. rudis is satisfactory to the customer, indeed it may actually be what they have seen and what they want, and may be easier to source. I believe they are a bit hardier and easier to grow.

P. Engelmannii, or Apache pine, is a similar tree, even more beautiful long-needled pine, which I have seen at Wakehurst Place, and it seems to be even harder to get one than P. montezumae, though at least the seeds are traded.