Having hacked back and weeded the garden in preparation for winter, I
am now arranging to have considerable amounts of farmyard muck
delivered which I then propose to spread over the veg patch and in the
ornamental beds also.
I am then planning to let the elements and the worms work their magic.
Just one question: should I dig the veg patch first, then mulch, or
should I much now, and wait till spring to do any digging ? (the
latter appeals immensely:-)
TIA

Cat(h)

"Cat(h)" wrote ...
Having hacked back and weeded the garden in preparation for winter, I
am now arranging to have considerable amounts of farmyard muck
delivered which I then propose to spread over the veg patch and in the
ornamental beds also.
I am then planning to let the elements and the worms work their magic.
Just one question: should I dig the veg patch first, then mulch, or
should I much now, and wait till spring to do any digging ? (the
latter appeals immensely:-)

Sorry, I do both. :-)

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
17mls W. of London.UK

On Nov 12, 5:31 pm, "Bob Hobden" wrote:
"Cat(h)" wrote ...

Having hacked back and weeded the garden in preparation for winter, I
am now arranging to have considerable amounts of farmyard muck
delivered which I then propose to spread over the veg patch and in the
ornamental beds also.
I am then planning to let the elements and the worms work their magic.
Just one question: should I dig the veg patch first, then mulch, or
should I much now, and wait till spring to do any digging ? (the
latter appeals immensely:-)

Sorry, I do both. :-)


I was *really* hoping I would not be told that...
Ah well. Let's hope for a dry week end :-)

Cat(h)

Cat(h) wrote:
Having hacked back and weeded the garden in preparation for winter, I
am now arranging to have considerable amounts of farmyard muck
delivered which I then propose to spread over the veg patch and in the
ornamental beds also.
I am then planning to let the elements and the worms work their magic.
Just one question: should I dig the veg patch first, then mulch, or
should I much now, and wait till spring to do any digging ? (the
latter appeals immensely:-)

I think it depends on your soil :-)

The heavier bits of mine are being dug now, prior to the application of
muck. The better lighter beds can just have it spread over, and digging can
be in the spring.

Gardner's Question Time recommended that you mulch when the soil is warm to
trap the heat inside. Or at least as warm as its likely to get at this time
of year.


My second trailer load of horse muck needs unloading tomorrow.


- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:21:05 -0000, "Nigel Cliffe"
wrote:

Cat(h) wrote:
Having hacked back and weeded the garden in preparation for winter, I
am now arranging to have considerable amounts of farmyard muck
delivered which I then propose to spread over the veg patch and in the
ornamental beds also.
I am then planning to let the elements and the worms work their magic.
Just one question: should I dig the veg patch first, then mulch, or
should I much now, and wait till spring to do any digging ? (the
latter appeals immensely:-)

I think it depends on your soil :-)

The heavier bits of mine are being dug now, prior to the application of
muck. The better lighter beds can just have it spread over, and digging can
be in the spring.

Gardner's Question Time recommended that you mulch when the soil is warm to
trap the heat inside. Or at least as warm as its likely to get at this time
of year.

Hmmm... Ok. I have till Saturday to prepare myself mentally :-)

My second trailer load of horse muck needs unloading tomorrow.

No, I'm not helping out. I have my own to wheelbarrow and dig. That's
enough occupation for me.

Cat(h)

Just a warning. I bought a load of cow manure a few years ago which
contained so many chemicals that my vegetables, especialy the runner beans,
were inedible for a year and didn't seem to get back to giving that feel
good feeling for a couple of more years.
"Cat(h)" wrote in message
ups.com...
Having hacked back and weeded the garden in preparation for winter, I
am now arranging to have considerable amounts of farmyard muck
delivered which I then propose to spread over the veg patch and in the
ornamental beds also.
I am then planning to let the elements and the worms work their magic.
Just one question: should I dig the veg patch first, then mulch, or
should I much now, and wait till spring to do any digging ? (the
latter appeals immensely:-)
TIA

Cat(h)

On Nov 19, 10:02 pm, "Colin Hammond" wrote:
Just a warning. I bought a load of cow manure a few years ago which
contained so many chemicals that my vegetables, especialy the runner beans,
were inedible for a year and didn't seem to get back to giving that feel
good feeling for a couple of more years."

I've used this stuff before, and it is fine. It is a mix of peat and
very high pedigree bullshit (literally) + some small amount of chopped
straw. I am near neighbour to a bull stud evaluation farm.
But I am curious. How did you know your stuff was full of chemicals -
did you get it analysed in a lab? And how were the beans "inedible"?

Cat(h)

On 20 Nov, 13:22, "Cat(h)" wrote:
I've used this stuff before, and it is fine. It is a mix of peat and
very high pedigree bullshit (literally) + some small amount of chopped
straw.

Where do you get the 'peat' consistency from the pat and 'small amount
of chopped straw' from? I've used cow manure once, to try, and I
didn't get this consistency nor did it come naturally - I had to
compost it for 6 months and mix it with grass and straw and whatever I
compost before it was any good to use. And if you've already prepared
your beds, as you've said you did, you should have no need to dig.

Cow manure is very different to horse manure. It is first very low in
nitrogen and therefore is the safest to use everywhere, it won't
change your soil ph grately if at all. As for the chemicals in it,
this has been a very long discussion over many garden fences. If you
use cow manure from an organic farm, you might be happier to know that
they would be less prone to using chemicals (as in pesticides).
However the use of antibiotics is something that organic farmers use
if the use is justified. Sadly it is very frequently justified because
of mastitis due to excessive milk production, and that's due to the
organic milk we all suddenly want. Not to mention the cattle feed,
which is imported and used by organic farmers too, to supplement the
feed with nutrients, which cows can't get with hay and grass alone.

As for a 'bull evaluation farm' you live near, I would be very
surprised to find out that they don't use steroids, chemicals,
pesticides and coctails of antibiotics. I might be wrong but this
sounds to me to be like a stud farm.

Also because of the digestive system of cows, weed seeds are less
present in the manure than with horse's manure. But cow manure is very
wet (and difficult to handle) and is best used in spring when the
winter cow yard/barn is cleared (which is then easier to handle and
had time to get 'hot'). Also it needs to be composted. You just cannot
apply fresh cow manure to your plot. You'll turn your soil acid,
especially if you apply it when cold and with it's low nitrogen, you
must ask yourself if you want to 'fertilise' your soil or just 'mulch'
it, and mulching in winter alone on empty plots gives very little
other than not letting the elements break your soil as intended. It
defeats the objective, really. It needs to get hot first, hence the
best time for cow manure to be applied is spring as opposed to horse
manure which you can use in less than 5 weeks if composted.

On Nov 21, 12:34 pm, wrote:
On 20 Nov, 13:22, "Cat(h)" wrote:

I've used this stuff before, and it is fine. It is a mix of peat and
very high pedigree bullshit (literally) + some small amount of chopped
straw.

Where do you get the 'peat' consistency from the pat and 'small amount
of chopped straw' from? I've used cow manure once, to try, and I
didn't get this consistency nor did it come naturally - I had to
compost it for 6 months and mix it with grass and straw and whatever I
compost before it was any good to use. And if you've already prepared
your beds, as you've said you did, you should have no need to dig.

Peat and straw is what the bulls are bedded on. So what I am getting
is the well rotted bedding, including poo.
Before you remind me that peat is an unrenewable resource - which it
is, at least on the scale of human life - the fact is that the farm
uses it, and I am quite happy to "recycle" it to add organic matter
into my garden.



Cow manure is very different to horse manure. It is first very low in
nitrogen and therefore is the safest to use everywhere, it won't
change your soil ph grately if at all. As for the chemicals in it,
this has been a very long discussion over many garden fences. If you
use cow manure from an organic farm, you might be happier to know that
they would be less prone to using chemicals (as in pesticides).
However the use of antibiotics is something that organic farmers use
if the use is justified. Sadly it is very frequently justified because
of mastitis due to excessive milk production, and that's due to the
organic milk we all suddenly want. Not to mention the cattle feed,
which is imported and used by organic farmers too, to supplement the
feed with nutrients, which cows can't get with hay and grass alone.
#

Not many bulls get treated for mastitis... But no, the local bull
station is not an outpost of organic activism.

As for a 'bull evaluation farm' you live near, I would be very
surprised to find out that they don't use steroids, chemicals,
pesticides and coctails of antibiotics. I might be wrong but this
sounds to me to be like a stud farm.

No pulling wool over your eyes, is there? ;-)

snip


Cat(h)

On 22 Nov, 12:30, "Cat(h)" wrote:
Peat and straw is what the bulls are bedded on. So what I am getting
is the well rotted bedding, including poo.
Before you remind me that peat is an unrenewable resource - which it
is, at least on the scale of human life - the fact is that the farm
uses it, and I am quite happy to "recycle" it to add organic matter
into my garden.

Oh, absolutely. You're doing well in doing so. I didn't know that peat
was used as bedding. Now that I also remember that you live in
Ireland, I think, I'm not surprised and you are very lucky to have
found a good source, in plenty and for nothing!

Not many bulls get treated for mastitis...

LOL! A slight oversight. But this was a point for Colin who I hope
will not give up on the cow pooh altogether. These issues are being
talked about everywhere, but finding a middle ground and some well
backed facts is hard. I think in this case it's what works for you.
Though I don't beleive the illness due to the manure. I'm sure it has
nothing to do with it. And it is interesting to see that if he
convinced himself with this to start with he might have overlooked
something else. It happens so many times.

But no, the local bull
station is not an outpost of organic activism.

You don't say ))

No pulling wool over your eyes, is there? ;-)

g

"Cat(h)" wrote in message
...
On Nov 19, 10:02 pm, "Colin Hammond" wrote:
Just a warning. I bought a load of cow manure a few years ago which
contained so many chemicals that my vegetables, especialy the runner
beans,
were inedible for a year and didn't seem to get back to giving that feel
good feeling for a couple of more years."

I've used this stuff before, and it is fine. It is a mix of peat and
very high pedigree bullshit (literally) + some small amount of chopped
straw. I am near neighbour to a bull stud evaluation farm.
But I am curious. How did you know your stuff was full of chemicals -
did you get it analysed in a lab? And how were the beans "inedible"?

Cat(h)

"How did I know the cow manure was full of chemicals?" No lab test needed,
just careful observation of how I and my family felt. You should feel good
after eating fresh vegetables from the garden not worse. No other conditions
were changed so that was good enough for me. If I had tested other people I
may have had a different result, but that of course would had been
irrelevant. I have stuck to using garden compost on the vegetable patch
since that experience, I do know what goes on the compost heap! Best place
for cow manure is the flower beds, but even there can be a problem as it
encourages acid loving plants that die off when the manure is exhausted.

Colin



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On 21/11/07 14:29, in article ,
"Colin Hammond" wrote:


"Cat(h)" wrote in message
...
On Nov 19, 10:02 pm, "Colin Hammond" wrote:
Just a warning. I bought a load of cow manure a few years ago which
contained so many chemicals that my vegetables, especialy the runner
beans,
were inedible for a year and didn't seem to get back to giving that feel
good feeling for a couple of more years."

I've used this stuff before, and it is fine. It is a mix of peat and
very high pedigree bullshit (literally) + some small amount of chopped
straw. I am near neighbour to a bull stud evaluation farm.
But I am curious. How did you know your stuff was full of chemicals -
did you get it analysed in a lab? And how were the beans "inedible"?

Cat(h)

"How did I know the cow manure was full of chemicals?" No lab test needed,
just careful observation of how I and my family felt. You should feel good
after eating fresh vegetables from the garden not worse. No other conditions
were changed so that was good enough for me. If I had tested other people I
may have had a different result, but that of course would had been
irrelevant. I have stuck to using garden compost on the vegetable patch
since that experience, I do know what goes on the compost heap! Best place
for cow manure is the flower beds, but even there can be a problem as it
encourages acid loving plants that die off when the manure is exhausted.

Colin


I'm sorry but I find this entirely unconvincing. You and your family may
well have caught some virus which you had passed from one to another over a
period of weeks or even months. On top of that, there are 'echo' viruses
which return over and over again to the same person. None of this convinces
me that your manuring of your vegetables made you and your family ill. If
you didn't test the manure you have absolutely no way of knowing that this
made your family unwell. This seems to me to fall into the 'gross
exaggeration' category, to be frank.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

In article , Sacha
says...
I'm sorry but I find this entirely unconvincing. You and your family may
well have caught some virus which you had passed from one to another over a
period of weeks or even months. On top of that, there are 'echo' viruses
which return over and over again to the same person. None of this convinces
me that your manuring of your vegetables made you and your family ill. If
you didn't test the manure you have absolutely no way of knowing that this
made your family unwell. This seems to me to fall into the 'gross
exaggeration' category, to be frank.




People often put 2 and 2 together and make 5 regarding food. Many years
ago my father had a headache following eating food heated up in a
relatives microwave oven. As a result he refused to ever buy a microwave
oven. He is convinced that food that has been in one is somehow
radioactive and gives off microwaves after eating it! Other than this
oddity he is quite a rational man and a competent electrician and
engineer!
--
David in Normandy

What an aggressive reply from Sacha. I was just passing on my observation.
He may be trying to convince himself it's not true. Of course lots of other
possible explanations are possible but I was convinced that I suffered ill
effects from eating the vegetables an effect that was still just detectable
the second year. As I said it may not affect anyone else but that doesn't
mean my observations were wrong. Everyone is not the same neither is every
cow farm. An interseting theory that there was a fast acting virus at the
top of the garden that I carried back to the house with the veg! As for
testing the manure; I wonder what chemicals I should be searching for,
perhaps I should have myself tested as well to find out what I am sensitive
to; no thanks! Would you buy a microwave oven if you found that food
prepared in it gave you a headache, just because you couldn't explain it?

Colin
"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 21/11/07 14:29, in article ,
"Colin Hammond" wrote:


"Cat(h)" wrote in message
...
On Nov 19, 10:02 pm, "Colin Hammond" wrote:
Just a warning. I bought a load of cow manure a few years ago which
contained so many chemicals that my vegetables, especialy the runner
beans,
were inedible for a year and didn't seem to get back to giving that
feel
good feeling for a couple of more years."

I've used this stuff before, and it is fine. It is a mix of peat and
very high pedigree bullshit (literally) + some small amount of chopped
straw. I am near neighbour to a bull stud evaluation farm.
But I am curious. How did you know your stuff was full of chemicals -
did you get it analysed in a lab? And how were the beans "inedible"?

Cat(h)

"How did I know the cow manure was full of chemicals?" No lab test
needed,
just careful observation of how I and my family felt. You should feel
good
after eating fresh vegetables from the garden not worse. No other
conditions
were changed so that was good enough for me. If I had tested other people
I
may have had a different result, but that of course would had been
irrelevant. I have stuck to using garden compost on the vegetable patch
since that experience, I do know what goes on the compost heap! Best
place
for cow manure is the flower beds, but even there can be a problem as it
encourages acid loving plants that die off when the manure is exhausted.

Colin


I'm sorry but I find this entirely unconvincing. You and your family may
well have caught some virus which you had passed from one to another over
a
period of weeks or even months. On top of that, there are 'echo' viruses
which return over and over again to the same person. None of this
convinces
me that your manuring of your vegetables made you and your family ill. If
you didn't test the manure you have absolutely no way of knowing that this
made your family unwell. This seems to me to fall into the 'gross
exaggeration' category, to be frank.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Nov 21, 2:29 pm, "Colin Hammond" wrote:
"Cat(h)" wrote in message

...

On Nov 19, 10:02 pm, "Colin Hammond" wrote:
Just a warning. I bought a load of cow manure a few years ago which
contained so many chemicals that my vegetables, especialy the runner
beans,
were inedible for a year and didn't seem to get back to giving that feel
good feeling for a couple of more years."

I've used this stuff before, and it is fine. It is a mix of peat and
very high pedigree bullshit (literally) + some small amount of chopped
straw. I am near neighbour to a bull stud evaluation farm.
But I am curious. How did you know your stuff was full of chemicals -
did you get it analysed in a lab? And how were the beans "inedible"?

Cat(h)

"How did I know the cow manure was full of chemicals?" No lab test needed,
just careful observation of how I and my family felt. You should feel good
after eating fresh vegetables from the garden not worse. No other conditions
were changed so that was good enough for me. If I had tested other people I
may have had a different result, but that of course would had been
irrelevant.

snip

Not very scientific, but whatever rocks your boat.
I and the other people I serve them to enjoy the fresh veg from my
garden, and have noted no ill effect from consuming same.


Cat(h)