How bad is bad?
 

"Martin" wrote in message
...

Nowadays there is no room for anything. There were also studies that
showed that corrosion was less when cars were parked on the street
rather than in an unheated garage.
I just traded in a Nissan car that was almost 16 years old and had
zero corrosion.
--

My car is 14 years old, I keep it on my drive (no garage) and it has no
corrosion at all. It's a small Citreon and I've had it for 7 years,
incredibly reliable. Starts first time, every time.
I keep it well serviced and I bought it from a 90 year old man who had
hardly used it.
I always like to buy my cars like this. Old cars from old people are
perfect.
Doesn't work if you want to show off with the latest number plate though;-)

Tina

How bad is bad?
 

"Martin" wrote in message
...
Amongst root causes are no hope of employment in some areas, the
opportunity to steal things that rioters could never afford and
"having fun".
--

Martin

Whilst agreeing with the above, I believe you haven't gone far enough.
Before the "no hope " stage arrives, people - i.e. children/youths need to
have been taught respect for their elders.This goes even further back to
their school days where lack of discipline was / is rife.

The abolishment of corporal punishment was the start of the rot. No one
ever wanted to "beat up" children for misbehaving, but a short sharp shock
worked wonders Rmember Willy Whitlelaw's proposal which got nowhere ?

In retrospect we can appreciate the wisdow of our own education, I assume we
are all well behaved pillars of society !

Bill

How bad is bad?
 

On 09/08/2011 17:39, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:


I appreciate what you're saying, Kay but Harry's remark was not
inclined towards working for the benefit of the community as a whole,
but more to hoping he could fool the trouble into becoming someone
else's problem. If there's a problem area, all the people in that
street, or on that estate, working *together* may produce a result.
"Pull up the ladder, Jack" won't do it. AIUI, there are areas where
crime has been pretty bad but where determined residents have managed
to clean it up and get their lives back in their own hands again.

But have they got rid of the crime or merely displaced it? Changing the
subject - we have a problem (as most places do) of where do older teenagers
go when they want to get together with their mates? They don't want to be
sitting under the eye of their parents - and, indeed, parents, especially
those without large houses, don't really want half a dozen noisy young males
in the house. So residents complain, and they get displaced from Morrisons
car park - but they haven't decided to stay at home, instead they've moved
to the field opposite the sheltered bungalows.

How bad is bad?
 

On 09/08/2011 17:34, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:

The people in these riots and the man who attacked your
property aren't poor, they're not in real need of food or shelter which
IS poverty, they're just destructive or jealous or lazy or all those
things.

There is the concept of relative poverty - being unable to share in the
lifestyle that all around you take for granted, or seeing any means to do
so.

But there's no excuse for looting and violence.

How bad is bad?
 

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 2011-08-10 10:39:20 +0100, Kay said:




On 09/08/2011 17:39, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:


I appreciate what you're saying, Kay but Harry's remark was not
inclined towards working for the benefit of the community as a whole,
but more to hoping he could fool the trouble into becoming someone
else's problem. If there's a problem area, all the people in that
street, or on that estate, working *together* may produce a result.
"Pull up the ladder, Jack" won't do it. AIUI, there are areas where
crime has been pretty bad but where determined residents have managed
to clean it up and get their lives back in their own hands again.

But have they got rid of the crime or merely displaced it? Changing the
subject - we have a problem (as most places do) of where do older
teenagers
go when they want to get together with their mates? They don't want to be
sitting under the eye of their parents - and, indeed, parents, especially
those without large houses, don't really want half a dozen noisy young
males
in the house. So residents complain, and they get displaced from
Morrisons
car park - but they haven't decided to stay at home, instead they've
moved
to the field opposite the sheltered bungalows.

There are so many underlying problems leading to this sort of behaviour
that at present, I think people can only tackle what affects *them*. The
wider picture and - perhaps - a solution may then start to emerge. But
the first step seems to be to show people like Baz's criminal that
criminal acts won't be tolerated by anyone in that
street/estate/community.

I think what an experience such as Baz's shows us is that the softly
softly approach by politicians, who then instruct the police and the
judiciary, simply doesn't work. Back to the days of "if you can't do the
time, don't do the crime". As to what is done about youths who kicked
around, bored and so forth, I wish I had an answer. Youth Clubs used to
be a solution but no doubt these are now deeply uncool.

But it seems to me that there are two answers to this, firstly, parents
should always know where thir children are, who they're with and what time
they are expected home. And secondly, children have to learn their place
on the 'ladder' - being 'bored' or whatever the excuse is, does not give
them the right to be a damned nuisance to others. Perhaps *their* parents
have to get together and organise themselves and their children into areas
where they can enjoy each other's company without upsettinig neighbours.
I know this sounds simplistic and perhaps, idealistic but until parents do
start to demonstrate concern, interest and that actions have consequences,
why should their children think otherwise? I'm talking about a return to
basic parenting where every family has to take responsibility for how
children are raised and for teaching them how to live within the wider
world without being a pain to everyone around them. We can all only do
that in our own small way, starting with ensuring those who cause nuisance
or crime are dealt with.
--
Sacha


With so many marriages, if they bother to get married in the first place,
breaking up and couples flitting from couple to couple, how do you expect
the 'Family Home' to be a Unit? Brothers and Sisters might not even know
which 'Father' is which.

As a family which has stuck together for over 54 years, I still have the
same wife, and all of the children, all four of them, have the same Mother
and Father, I am sometimes not at all amazed that the 'Family Unit' has gone
out of the window.

How many readers of this newsgroup have the same partner they started out
with over 30 years ago?

Mike

--

....................................

Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive.

....................................

How bad is bad?
 

In article ,
Kay wrote:

Everyone knows someone with more or better than they've got. I don't
see that as an excuse. If people want more and better, find a legal
way of acquiring it.

It's not an excuse. When even Morrisons has ceased giving out applications,
and a well qualified young man feels himself lucky to have secured a
temporary part time summer job at Burger King, then the law abiding young
can be forgiven for sinking into depression, and the less law abiding are
more likely to go on the rampage. But criminals are made not born. Ensuring
a fair distribution of the wealth of society is self-interest.

If that were all, the issue would be easy, but some of us started
predicting this particular social collapse 40 years ago and more.
I have known that major riots were certain for 20 years, and why,
and I am no expert on this area. The only decent analysis in the
press that I have seen is on Al Jazeera's Web site:

http://english.aljazeera.net/

Look at the opinion pieces. There was also one in the Independent,
by someone who runs youth clubs in the areas where this started.
We KNOW why this was an explosion waiting for a spark - and even,
heaven help us, how to stop it recurring - but curing decades of
harm is not quick, painless or cheap. And, no, the solution is
NOT a return to the bureaucratic welfare state.

Alternatively, if you know any competent social psychologists or
social historians, they will say the same. But the foreigners
(from the USA, not Europe) who rule our rulers have been pushing
the Tea Party agenda (and propaganda) on us since they started to
get control 30 years ago.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

How bad is bad?
 

Everyone knows someone with more or better than they've got. I don't
see that as an excuse. If people want more and better, find a legal
way of acquiring it.

It's not an excuse. When even Morrisons has ceased giving out applications,
and a well qualified young man feels himself lucky to have secured a
temporary part time summer job at Burger King, then the law abiding young
can be forgiven for sinking into depression, and the less law abiding are
more likely to go on the rampage. But criminals are made not born. Ensuring
a fair distribution of the wealth of society is self-interest.

How bad is bad?
 

On 10/08/2011 12:01, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:


I think what an experience such as Baz's shows us is that the softly
softly approach by politicians, who then instruct the police and the
judiciary, simply doesn't work. Back to the days of "if you can't do
the time, don't do the crime".

One-third of young men born in 1953 had acquired a conviction for a
relatively serious crime before the age of 30 (and we're not talking driving
offences here). But two-thirds of convictions were acquired by the same 6%
of offenders.

So the trick is how to identify the 6% of the 30% and deal with them
effectively, and not take action that will turn the 94% into unemployable
ex-cons rather than useful contributing members of society..

As to what is done about youths who
kicked around, bored and so forth, I wish I had an answer. Youth Clubs
used to be a solution but no doubt these are now deeply uncool.

And those that exist are having their funding reduced.

But it seems to me that there are two answers to this, firstly,
parents should always know where thir children are, who they're with
and what time they are expected home. And secondly, children have to
learn their place on the 'ladder' - being 'bored' or whatever the
excuse is, does not give them the right to be a damned nuisance to
others.

It seems to me that worthy ideals of giving our children learning
opportunities, coupled with probably over-exaggerated fears of paedophilia
and rather more justified fears of traffic, has led to a generation which
has lost the ability to cope with boredom. Entertainment has to be provided
by someone else.

Also, we have lost our tolerance for children. When I was being brought up,
the accepted idea was that you did most things as a family, and children
were expected to behave quietly in other people's houses. Then we moved into
an era when it became expected that children were not included in an
invitation, and you found a babysitter. So the need for children to behave
nicely lessened.

I'm talking about a return to
basic parenting where every family has to take responsibility for how
children are raised and for teaching them how to live within the wider
world without being a pain to everyone around them.

We are are more fragmented and mobile society - we no longer have the role
models. The first baby I ever held in my arms was my own. You can see all
around you that many people lack parenting skills - parents themselves need
help.

How bad is bad?
 

"Kay" wrote in message
...



On 10/08/2011 12:01, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:


I think what an experience such as Baz's shows us is that the softly
softly approach by politicians, who then instruct the police and the
judiciary, simply doesn't work. Back to the days of "if you can't do
the time, don't do the crime".

One-third of young men born in 1953 had acquired a conviction for a
relatively serious crime before the age of 30 (and we're not talking
driving
offences here). But two-thirds of convictions were acquired by the same 6%
of offenders.

So the trick is how to identify the 6% of the 30% and deal with them
effectively, and not take action that will turn the 94% into unemployable
ex-cons rather than useful contributing members of society..

As to what is done about youths who
kicked around, bored and so forth, I wish I had an answer. Youth Clubs
used to be a solution but no doubt these are now deeply uncool.

And those that exist are having their funding reduced.

But it seems to me that there are two answers to this, firstly,
parents should always know where thir children are, who they're with
and what time they are expected home. And secondly, children have to
learn their place on the 'ladder' - being 'bored' or whatever the
excuse is, does not give them the right to be a damned nuisance to
others.

It seems to me that worthy ideals of giving our children learning
opportunities, coupled with probably over-exaggerated fears of paedophilia
and rather more justified fears of traffic, has led to a generation which
has lost the ability to cope with boredom. Entertainment has to be
provided
by someone else.

Also, we have lost our tolerance for children. When I was being brought
up,
the accepted idea was that you did most things as a family, and children
were expected to behave quietly in other people's houses. Then we moved
into
an era when it became expected that children were not included in an
invitation, and you found a babysitter. So the need for children to behave
nicely lessened.

I'm talking about a return to
basic parenting where every family has to take responsibility for how
children are raised and for teaching them how to live within the wider
world without being a pain to everyone around them.

We are are more fragmented and mobile society - we no longer have the role
models. The first baby I ever held in my arms was my own. You can see all
around you that many people lack parenting skills - parents themselves
need
help.


""parents themselves need help.""


Parents themselves need help to stay together. Too many divorces and split
marriages.

Mike


--

....................................

Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive.

....................................

How bad is bad?
 

On 10/08/2011 09:41, in article ,
"Bill Grey" wrote:

The abolishment of corporal punishment was the start of the rot.

I can't agree with that. I know people who started life as bright, confident
primary school children, went to a secondary school with corporal
punishment, and, although never likely to deliberately break a rule, went in
fear and emerged into adulthood with all the confidence knocked out of them.
I wouldn't want a return to that.

How bad is bad?
 

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 2011-08-10 12:33:35 +0100, Martin said:

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:01:48 +0100, Sacha wrote:


I think what an experience such as Baz's shows us is that the softly
softly approach by politicians, who then instruct the police and the
judiciary, simply doesn't work. Back to the days of "if you can't do
the time, don't do the crime". As to what is done about youths who
kicked around, bored and so forth, I wish I had an answer. Youth Clubs
used to be a solution but no doubt these are now deeply uncool.

National Service in somewhere like Afghanistan?

NS is often touted as a solution and I'm sure it would be a very effective
one. But the truth is that the services really don't want to have to
train a whole load of young people for two years and then lose them back
into civilian life.
--
Sacha



As their President, I was at a massive parade of ex Royal Air Force National
Servicemen a couple of years ago at RAF Cosford
http://www.nsrafa.org/%5CDefault.aspx and the Inspecting Officer was Air
Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Moran and his speech from the Saluting Base
was one of praise of what the National Serviceman had done, Berlin Airlift,
Suez, Aden, Borneo etc etc and how the National Serviceman had filled the
gap from the Hostilities Only leaving after the War along with those who had
been detained who should have retired during the war and those whose time
had come to an end until the Regular Armed Services had been built up. I
asked him if he would like to see National Service brought back, his reply
was yes because of the dedication of the NS man, but no because when a man
joins now, it is seven years before the training has 'taken effect' and
their investment is a pay back.

Mike


--

....................................

Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive.

....................................

How bad is bad?
 

Martin wrote in
:

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:10:44 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2011-08-10 10:46:44 +0100, Kay said:




On 09/08/2011 17:34, in article ,
"Sacha" wrote:

The people in these riots and the man who attacked your
property aren't poor, they're not in real need of food or shelter
which IS poverty, they're just destructive or jealous or lazy or
all those things.

There is the concept of relative poverty - being unable to share in
the lifestyle that all around you take for granted, or seeing any
means to do so.

Everyone knows someone with more or better than they've got. I don't
see that as an excuse. If people want more and better, find a legal
way of acquiring it. The people organising the looting in the riots,
or the riots themselves, have Blackberries, not tin cans on the end of
a string.

which were almost certainly stolen, not bought.


But there's no excuse for looting and violence.

Absolutely none. I can understand it better where there's real abject
poverty, allied with a repressive dictatorship. This was organised
crime for greed. A comparatively small number of feral humans have
destroyed homes, businesses, livelihoods and terrorised people on the
street or in their cars. That's a shame and disgrace upon all of us,
imo, because in one way or another, we've allowed things to reach a
pitch where it *can* happen. But we really are so far OT now that I
have to accept I'm never going to be World President and bow out
gracefully! ;-)

:-)

I saw a senior police rep. on tv today and he is a wuss.

Use Water Cannons, Tasers, tear gas and anything else known to subdue the
mindless looters. It worked in Northern Ireland during the "troubles",
with the exception of the taser.
It's obvious that some innocent people live close, but give a warning 24
hours in advance, and a lot of support workers, the area would be ripe
for picking.
We need to stand against the ?insurgents? make them back down, take the
leaders, put them on trial and see who supports this neo Nazzi regime.

Baz

How bad is bad?
 

In article , Baz wrote:

Use Water Cannons, Tasers, tear gas and anything else known to subdue the
mindless looters. It worked in Northern Ireland during the "troubles",
with the exception of the taser.

The Provisional IRA would agree with you.

Before that happened, the IRA was an essentially defunct organisation,
and the response that you favour directly caused the creation of the
Provisional IRA. That is all documented, and witnessed by huge
numbers of people who were involved at the time. See "Voices From
The Grave" and others.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

How bad is bad?
 

'Mike' wrote:
How many readers of this newsgroup have the same partner they started out
with over 30 years ago?

I'll have to hold my hand up and admit that my 'boyfriend' from primary
school has a location totally unknown to me ...

How bad is bad?
 

Kay wrote:
So the trick is how to identify the 6% of the 30% and deal with them
effectively, and not take action that will turn the 94% into unemployable
ex-cons rather than useful contributing members of society..

A clever trick that fits nicely into the "easier said than done" box, I
suspect.

How bad is bad?
 

Sacha wrote:
We have, also, a modern culture that requires the adults to stop
speaking when mini-Fred opens his mouth. In my day - (harumph) - it
was "hush, the adults are speaking". I say that now to my
grandchildren if they interrupt and their parents say it too. But some
young parents have looked at me as if I came from Planet Monster.

I think there's a fine line there, between "wait your turn to speak" and
pushing a child into a position where they don't feel confident enough to
speak because they feel they will be ignored and their opinion isn't valid.

(I tell Nick off for his frequent dismissing of Benjamin's comments as
'silly' or 'rubbish' - it's not a healthy way to encourage a child's
development if they don't feel they can speak out)

How bad is bad?
 

Sacha wrote in :

On 2011-08-10 12:33:35 +0100, Martin said:

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:01:48 +0100, Sacha wrote:


I think what an experience such as Baz's shows us is that the softly
softly approach by politicians, who then instruct the police and the
judiciary, simply doesn't work. Back to the days of "if you can't do
the time, don't do the crime". As to what is done about youths who
kicked around, bored and so forth, I wish I had an answer. Youth Clubs
used to be a solution but no doubt these are now deeply uncool.

National Service in somewhere like Afghanistan?

NS is often touted as a solution and I'm sure it would be a very
effective one. But the truth is that the services really don't want to
have to train a whole load of young people for two years and then lose
them back into civilian life.

And also why have a knob head serving with our patriotic volunteers, true
they are paid accordingly, but why have someone/s with you who is an
outcast, and you are defending your country. The last thing you need is a
convict with you.

Baz

How bad is bad?
 

Sacha wrote in :


We have, also, a modern culture that requires the adults to stop
speaking when mini-Fred opens his mouth. In my day - (harumph) - it
was "hush, the adults are speaking". I say that now to my
grandchildren if they interrupt and their parents say it too. But
some young parents have looked at me as if I came from Planet Monster.

What has to be said needs to be said.
I reckon it comes from t.v. progs.
The younger generation has no conception of how our mothers and fathers,
and their parents lived during 2 world wars.
Youth today think they know it all, but we know it doesn't happen such as
it does in soaps. You see teenagers giving advice to their parents and all
of that nonsense.
All of us know that this is not right. Knowledge is a long process and by
definition takes a v e r y long time to acquire.

At the moment I have 2 grandchildren who I love very much. They will get a
thick ear as my kids did if and when I look after them I get cheek, or
worse. They never need it. Their parents keep them in check with a bloody
good old fashioned bollocking. Always been enough for ours too, without the
thick ear.

Baz

How bad is bad?
 

On 10/08/2011 14:46, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:

I'm afraid that's so. The idea of 'no telly' before 5pm, or children
running around, playing with no adult supervision, seems to be a dead
duck now.

It's not just "chavs". There's many middle class children leading totally
regimented lives, being collected from school and then whisked off to
dancing classes, music classes, football ...
All of these are worthy activities, but when a child's life is completely
filled with organised activities, they are left with no room left to learn
how to amuse themselves.

Also true. But at the same time, it's in the famiy circle that
children first learn to behave as members of any community. The
lessons learned there, from birth, should be equipping them for being
part of society as a whole. Good manners and respect etc. to members of
one's own family are the springboard for the rest of it.

They learn too by what they see around them. They won't learn respect if the
adults in their family don't show respect to each other.

How bad is bad?
 

wrote in :

In article , Baz
wrote:

Use Water Cannons, Tasers, tear gas and anything else known to subdue
the mindless looters. It worked in Northern Ireland during the
"troubles", with the exception of the taser.

The Provisional IRA would agree with you.

Before that happened, the IRA was an essentially defunct organisation,
and the response that you favour directly caused the creation of the
Provisional IRA. That is all documented, and witnessed by huge
numbers of people who were involved at the time. See "Voices From
The Grave" and others.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


My dad had to serve in N.I and lost his life with 1RGJ in 1982
Please do not advise me about provos, I suspect you have read a few
newspapers and stuff regarding Bobby Sands and hunger strikes. Hughes etc.

Let me tell you how the cowardly *******s killed a whole saracen containing
a peace keeping force.

http://tinyurl.com/3qrmnw8

Keep an eye for 20 Jul 82 and see for yourself. A culvert bomb.

Baz

How bad is bad?
 

In article , Sacha
writes
NS is often touted as a solution and I'm sure it would be a very
effective one. But the truth is that the services really don't want to
have to train a whole load of young people for two years and then lose
them back into civilian life.


They don't want to have to train and take care of a load of ungrateful,
ill adjusted, uncooperative yobs either. They have serious work to do
and goodness knows i would hate any soldier to have some of that looting
mob next to him when he was searching for IEDs etc.!
The police and Army aren't allowed to do much
any more and neither is any authority now we've got those in power who
think a softly softly approach will solve al issues. It won't! The
teenagers on those High Streets know there'll be very little comeback
for their actions .
Personally I'd have aimed a hose with permanent green dye on all looters
and their stolen goods, then let them pass those goods on or try !!

--
Janet Tweedy

How bad is bad?
 

In article , Pete C
writes

"Janet Tweedy" wrote in message
...

My brother just bought two cameras on the Internet , not that dear, they
are used to record wildlife in your garden so use infra red and the
movement makes the camera take the picture.
SNIPPY
More info on the cams would be appreciated please Janet.
Reply to is valid.
Thanks
Pete C




It was one of the range of bushnell trail cameras Apparently you can get
them fairly reasonably on Ebay, well that's what my brother told me -
though what he terms as reasonable I suppose might not be to others :)

Janet


--
Janet Tweedy

How bad is bad?
 

In article , chris French
writes
I would cause a bit of a problem with the clean up if you couldn't
clean away the green paint. tottenham would be rather green now :-)

But only outside shops and it would be a small price to pay and cover
up all the chewing gum stuck to the tarmac:)
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

How bad is bad?
 

In article , Kay
writes
There is the concept of relative poverty - being unable to share in the
lifestyle that all around you take for granted, or seeing any means to do
so.


Oh no Kay that's not true. If it were then lots of poor people would be
stealing and committing crimes all over the place and yet they are not.

I don't have holidays but i don't go round blowing up aeroplanes to stop
others enjoying themselves! Nor do i steal plasma TVs or shower units
(which i could do with)
I suspect many of them have already got a lot of money via drugs , black
economy or selling stolen goods etc.
--
Janet Tweedy

How bad is bad?
 

In article , Baz
writes
My dad had to serve in N.I and lost his life with 1RGJ in 1982
Please do not advise me about provos, I suspect you have read a few
newspapers and stuff regarding Bobby Sands and hunger strikes. Hughes etc.

Let me tell you how the cowardly *******s killed a whole saracen containing
a peace keeping force.



By coincidence Baz

Went all the way up to Alrewas and put a cross and some flowers on the
NI monument at the Arboretum just this afternoon for Tom...........

and though it happened later, who can forget Warrenpoint?
--
Janet Tweedy

How bad is bad?
 

"Janet Tweedy" wrote in message
...
In article , Baz
writes
My dad had to serve in N.I and lost his life with 1RGJ in 1982
Please do not advise me about provos, I suspect you have read a few
newspapers and stuff regarding Bobby Sands and hunger strikes. Hughes etc.

Let me tell you how the cowardly *******s killed a whole saracen
containing
a peace keeping force.



By coincidence Baz

Went all the way up to Alrewas and put a cross and some flowers on the
NI monument at the Arboretum just this afternoon for Tom...........

and though it happened later, who can forget Warrenpoint?
--
Janet Tweedy


Janet did you appreciate the ""11.11.11"" across the Wreath at the National
Memorial?

Kindest regards

Mike
ps
I doubt if many on this newsgroup/forum will :-((


--

....................................

Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive.

....................................

How bad is bad?
 

In article , Baz wrote:

My dad had to serve in N.I and lost his life with 1RGJ in 1982
Please do not advise me about provos, I suspect you have read a few
newspapers and stuff regarding Bobby Sands and hunger strikes. Hughes etc.

You suppose wrong.

If you want to learn how people with your attitude turned a soluble
political problem into the civil war it became, you really should
read "Voices From The Grave". I knew what was happening at the time,
from contemporary reports, but obtaining them now would be very hard
work (assuming they still exist). Oh, and the period was 1968 to
1972. After the government accepted the Widgery Report, the problem
was no longer soluble without major bloodshed.

The situation in England today is not comparable, but it IS very
comparable with that which caused the rise of Malcolm X, the Black
Panthers etc. The real danger, here and now, is that disaffected
people of the calibre of those in the Baader Meinhof gang will get
involved (e.g. the unemployed graduates who realise that their
debts will buy them nothing). And a hybrid of those two is not
nice to contemplate.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

How bad is bad?
 

On 10/08/2011 17:25, in article ,
"Janet Tweedy" wrote:

In article , Kay
writes
There is the concept of relative poverty - being unable to share in the
lifestyle that all around you take for granted, or seeing any means to do
so.


Oh no Kay that's not true. If it were then lots of poor people would be
stealing and committing crimes all over the place and yet they are not.

No, that doesn't follow. Not everyone responds the same way. In anther post
I said

" It's not an excuse. When even Morrisons has ceased giving out
applications,
and a well qualified young man feels himself lucky to have secured a
temporary part time summer job at Burger King, then the law abiding young
can be forgiven for sinking into depression, and the less law abiding are
more likely to go on the rampage."

The more unequal you make a society, the greater the risk that some people
will feel that they haven't got much stake in that society and therefore no
need to behave according the rules of that society.

How bad is bad?
 

Janet Tweedy wrote in
:

Went all the way up to Alrewas and put a cross and some flowers on the
NI monument at the Arboretum just this afternoon for Tom...........

and though it happened later, who can forget Warrenpoint?

Who was Tom? I know you won't forget him, that is obvious.

Warren point is part of history now and the start of a shitty, almost
cynical part of our fight against demi-gods, and we all know who they are,
or were.

Baz

How bad is bad?
 

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:10:44 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2011-08-10 10:46:44 +0100, Kay said:




On 09/08/2011 17:34, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:

The people in these riots and the man who attacked your
property aren't poor, they're not in real need of food or shelter which
IS poverty, they're just destructive or jealous or lazy or all those
things.

There is the concept of relative poverty - being unable to share in the
lifestyle that all around you take for granted, or seeing any means to
do
so.

Everyone knows someone with more or better than they've got. I don't
see that as an excuse. If people want more and better, find a legal
way of acquiring it. The people organising the looting in the riots,
or the riots themselves, have Blackberries, not tin cans on the end of
a string.

which were almost certainly stolen, not bought.



What on earth makes you say that? Surely that's pure speculation on your
part?





But there's no excuse for looting and violence.

Absolutely none. I can understand it better where there's real abject
poverty, allied with a repressive dictatorship. This was organised
crime for greed. A comparatively small number of feral humans have
destroyed homes, businesses, livelihoods and terrorised people on the
street or in their cars. That's a shame and disgrace upon all of us,
imo, because in one way or another, we've allowed things to reach a
pitch where it *can* happen. But we really are so far OT now that I
have to accept I'm never going to be World President and bow out
gracefully! ;-)

:-)
--

Martin

How bad is bad?
 

Judith in France wrote in news:330960ba-b9bf-
:




If my child had ever come home with something that had to
be paid for, serious questions would be asked, i.e. where did you get
the money to buy that?


I imagine that those questions are not asked by some parents. Those parents
are to blame, no doubt about that.

Baz

How bad is bad?
 

"'Mike'" wrote in message
...


"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 2011-08-10 10:39:20 +0100, Kay said:




On 09/08/2011 17:39, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:


I appreciate what you're saying, Kay but Harry's remark was not
inclined towards working for the benefit of the community as a whole,
but more to hoping he could fool the trouble into becoming someone
else's problem. If there's a problem area, all the people in that
street, or on that estate, working *together* may produce a result.
"Pull up the ladder, Jack" won't do it. AIUI, there are areas where
crime has been pretty bad but where determined residents have managed
to clean it up and get their lives back in their own hands again.

But have they got rid of the crime or merely displaced it? Changing the
subject - we have a problem (as most places do) of where do older
teenagers
go when they want to get together with their mates? They don't want to
be
sitting under the eye of their parents - and, indeed, parents,
especially
those without large houses, don't really want half a dozen noisy young
males
in the house. So residents complain, and they get displaced from
Morrisons
car park - but they haven't decided to stay at home, instead they've
moved
to the field opposite the sheltered bungalows.

There are so many underlying problems leading to this sort of behaviour
that at present, I think people can only tackle what affects *them*. The
wider picture and - perhaps - a solution may then start to emerge. But
the first step seems to be to show people like Baz's criminal that
criminal acts won't be tolerated by anyone in that
street/estate/community.

I think what an experience such as Baz's shows us is that the softly
softly approach by politicians, who then instruct the police and the
judiciary, simply doesn't work. Back to the days of "if you can't do the
time, don't do the crime". As to what is done about youths who kicked
around, bored and so forth, I wish I had an answer. Youth Clubs used to
be a solution but no doubt these are now deeply uncool.

But it seems to me that there are two answers to this, firstly, parents
should always know where thir children are, who they're with and what
time they are expected home. And secondly, children have to learn their
place on the 'ladder' - being 'bored' or whatever the excuse is, does not
give them the right to be a damned nuisance to others. Perhaps *their*
parents have to get together and organise themselves and their children
into areas where they can enjoy each other's company without upsettinig
neighbours. I know this sounds simplistic and perhaps, idealistic but
until parents do start to demonstrate concern, interest and that actions
have consequences, why should their children think otherwise? I'm
talking about a return to basic parenting where every family has to take
responsibility for how children are raised and for teaching them how to
live within the wider world without being a pain to everyone around them.
We can all only do that in our own small way, starting with ensuring
those who cause nuisance or crime are dealt with.
--
Sacha


With so many marriages, if they bother to get married in the first place,
breaking up and couples flitting from couple to couple, how do you expect
the 'Family Home' to be a Unit? Brothers and Sisters might not even know
which 'Father' is which.

As a family which has stuck together for over 54 years, I still have the
same wife, and all of the children, all four of them, have the same Mother
and Father, I am sometimes not at all amazed that the 'Family Unit' has
gone out of the window.

How many readers of this newsgroup have the same partner they started out
with over 30 years ago?

Mike

--


Governments have been trying to destroy the family unit for years now. As
you reap...

http://www.2012theawakening.com/?cat=87

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/20...re_fatherl.php







...................................

Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive.

...................................

How bad is bad?
 

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 17:13:24 +0100, Janet Tweedy
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes
NS is often touted as a solution and I'm sure it would be a very
effective one. But the truth is that the services really don't want to
have to train a whole load of young people for two years and then lose
them back into civilian life.


They don't want to have to train and take care of a load of ungrateful,
ill adjusted, uncooperative yobs either. They have serious work to do
and goodness knows i would hate any soldier to have some of that looting
mob next to him when he was searching for IEDs etc.!
The police and Army aren't allowed to do much
any more and neither is any authority now we've got those in power who
think a softly softly approach will solve al issues. It won't! The
teenagers on those High Streets know there'll be very little comeback
for their actions .
Personally I'd have aimed a hose with permanent green dye on all looters
and their stolen goods, then let them pass those goods on or try !!

Yes, it would be good fun. Personally, I'd like to see costed plans
for this eventuality. Would there be permanent Green-Liquid Squirting
Officers stationed every hundred yards in every city of the United
Kingdom, ready to spring into action once every ten or twenty years?
Or would there be a Green-Liquid Flying Squad, ready to travel at a
moment's notice in order to arrive after the looting's finished? Would
they be armed to protect them from being knocked out as a preliminary
to the looting?

We're all repelled, angry, afraid, and all those feelings: I'm not
taking the, er, yellow liquid out of you, but we have to be practical.
And what the practical measures are, I'm far from certain. And if we
want it to stop, we do have to ask why it happens -- and I for one am
far from certain about that, too.

--
Mike.

How bad is bad?
 

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:02:38 +0100, Kay
wrote:




On 10/08/2011 17:25, in article ,
"Janet Tweedy" wrote:

In article , Kay
writes
There is the concept of relative poverty - being unable to share in the
lifestyle that all around you take for granted, or seeing any means to do
so.


Oh no Kay that's not true. If it were then lots of poor people would be
stealing and committing crimes all over the place and yet they are not.

No, that doesn't follow. Not everyone responds the same way. In anther post
I said

" It's not an excuse. When even Morrisons has ceased giving out
applications,
and a well qualified young man feels himself lucky to have secured a
temporary part time summer job at Burger King, then the law abiding young
can be forgiven for sinking into depression, and the less law abiding are
more likely to go on the rampage."

The more unequal you make a society, the greater the risk that some people
will feel that they haven't got much stake in that society and therefore no
need to behave according the rules of that society.

That works for the financial wizards, after all. They're another
ingredient in the very complex mix which creates alienation.

--
Mike.

How bad is bad?
 

On 10/08/2011 18:41, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:


Society has *never* been equal, never in history, it's just not in the
nature of man or the scheme of things. BUT what has changed now is
peoples' sense of entitlement.

What has also changed is the level of inequality as measured for example by
the proportion of wealth owned by the richest few and the disparity between
the highest and lowest remuneration within an organisation.

How bad is bad?
 

On 10/08/2011 17:48, wrote:
In , wrote:

My dad had to serve in N.I and lost his life with 1RGJ in 1982
Please do not advise me about provos, I suspect you have read a few
newspapers and stuff regarding Bobby Sands and hunger strikes. Hughes etc.

You suppose wrong.

If you want to learn how people with your attitude turned a soluble
political problem into the civil war it became, you really should
read "Voices From The Grave". I knew what was happening at the time,
from contemporary reports, but obtaining them now would be very hard
work (assuming they still exist). Oh, and the period was 1968 to
1972. After the government accepted the Widgery Report, the problem
was no longer soluble without major bloodshed.

The situation in England today is not comparable, but it IS very
comparable with that which caused the rise of Malcolm X, the Black
Panthers etc. The real danger, here and now, is that disaffected
people of the calibre of those in the Baader Meinhof gang will get
involved (e.g. the unemployed graduates who realise that their
debts will buy them nothing). And a hybrid of those two is not
nice to contemplate.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick is quite right. His email address is no accident. Ability to see
the bigger picture as opposed to being "hang 'em flog 'em lock 'em all
up like" is a sign of intelligence. There is research on this!

How bad is bad?
 

On 10/08/2011 18:37, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:

There's a big difference there, Kay. *Those* children's parents know
where they are.

... But then they go off to university ;-)

How bad is bad?
 

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:41:51 +0100, "Bill Grey"
wrote:


"Martin" wrote in message
. ..
Amongst root causes are no hope of employment in some areas, the
opportunity to steal things that rioters could never afford and
"having fun".
--

Martin

Whilst agreeing with the above, I believe you haven't gone far enough.
Before the "no hope " stage arrives, people - i.e. children/youths need to
have been taught respect for their elders.

Only a small minority are out of control.

This goes even further back to
their school days where lack of discipline was / is rife.

The abolishment of corporal punishment was the start of the rot. No one
ever wanted to "beat up" children for misbehaving, but a short sharp shock
worked wonders

for the applier of corporal punishment?


Rmember Willy Whitlelaw's proposal which got nowhere ?

In retrospect we can appreciate the wisdow of our own education, I assume
we
are all well behaved pillars of society !

At the school I went to only the bad teachers resorted to corporal
punishment.
--

Martin

"Corporal Punishments" is such a strong phrase - not invented by me, but it
must be remembered that the cane never did any real harm - it did more good
than harm. One only got the cane if one misbehaved, was cheeky or rude -
tendencies which needed to be corrected. The pillars of society at the time
of its abolition had in all probability received the cane at some time. The
"do-gooders" have ruined society and we are now reaping the products of
their actions.

There were, without doubt, bad teachers who went beyond the ethos of good
discipline.

Bill

How bad is bad?
 

"Bill Grey" wrote in message
...

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:41:51 +0100, "Bill Grey"
wrote:


"Martin" wrote in message
...
Amongst root causes are no hope of employment in some areas, the
opportunity to steal things that rioters could never afford and
"having fun".
--

Martin

Whilst agreeing with the above, I believe you haven't gone far enough.
Before the "no hope " stage arrives, people - i.e. children/youths need
to
have been taught respect for their elders.

Only a small minority are out of control.

This goes even further back to
their school days where lack of discipline was / is rife.

The abolishment of corporal punishment was the start of the rot. No one
ever wanted to "beat up" children for misbehaving, but a short sharp
shock
worked wonders

for the applier of corporal punishment?


Rmember Willy Whitlelaw's proposal which got nowhere ?

In retrospect we can appreciate the wisdow of our own education, I assume
we
are all well behaved pillars of society !

At the school I went to only the bad teachers resorted to corporal
punishment.
--

Martin

"Corporal Punishments" is such a strong phrase - not invented by me, but
it must be remembered that the cane never did any real harm - it did more
good than harm. One only got the cane if one misbehaved, was cheeky or
rude - tendencies which needed to be corrected. The pillars of society at
the time of its abolition had in all probability received the cane at some
time. The "do-gooders" have ruined society and we are now reaping the
products of their actions.

There were, without doubt, bad teachers who went beyond the ethos of good
discipline.

Bill


I went to a Private School and the Slipper was very effective.

But here is an interesting thought, to what degree did a Private education
'implant' a different, more adult/responsible 'mind' in the body? We have
quite a 'sprinkling' of privately educated people in our family and the
thought of any of them running amok as the looters and crowds have been
doing shocks us. The resulting qualifications and professions speaks
volumes.

Mike

--

....................................

Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive.

....................................

How bad is bad?
 

"Kay" wrote in message
...



On 10/08/2011 09:41, in article ,
"Bill Grey" wrote:

The abolishment of corporal punishment was the start of the rot.

I can't agree with that. I know people who started life as bright,
confident
primary school children, went to a secondary school with corporal
punishment, and, although never likely to deliberately break a rule, went
in
fear and emerged into adulthood with all the confidence knocked out of
them.
I wouldn't want a return to that.

Wow ! Your statement about knowing people etc...... is somewhat surreal.
Having confidence knocked out of them is certainly an exaggeration or a
distortion of the facts.

What sort of school was that ?? Life in school wasn't /that/ bad in the
19th century for goodness sake.

As far as I can recall, we didn't hear of "Corporal Punishment" until the
incident involving Sea Cadets at Dartmouth (Something like that anyway)

We're taking the occasional cane, not the ritual beating up of children.

Don't forget when referring to children, some of the rioters and miscreants
classed as children are in their early teens and well aware of the
consequences of their actions.

Bill