In article , Sacha
writes
NS is often touted as a solution and I'm sure it would be a very
effective one. But the truth is that the services really don't want to
have to train a whole load of young people for two years and then lose
them back into civilian life.


They don't want to have to train and take care of a load of ungrateful,
ill adjusted, uncooperative yobs either. They have serious work to do
and goodness knows i would hate any soldier to have some of that looting
mob next to him when he was searching for IEDs etc.!
The police and Army aren't allowed to do much
any more and neither is any authority now we've got those in power who
think a softly softly approach will solve al issues. It won't! The
teenagers on those High Streets know there'll be very little comeback
for their actions .
Personally I'd have aimed a hose with permanent green dye on all looters
and their stolen goods, then let them pass those goods on or try !!

--
Janet Tweedy

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 17:13:24 +0100, Janet Tweedy
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes
NS is often touted as a solution and I'm sure it would be a very
effective one. But the truth is that the services really don't want to
have to train a whole load of young people for two years and then lose
them back into civilian life.


They don't want to have to train and take care of a load of ungrateful,
ill adjusted, uncooperative yobs either. They have serious work to do
and goodness knows i would hate any soldier to have some of that looting
mob next to him when he was searching for IEDs etc.!
The police and Army aren't allowed to do much
any more and neither is any authority now we've got those in power who
think a softly softly approach will solve al issues. It won't! The
teenagers on those High Streets know there'll be very little comeback
for their actions .
Personally I'd have aimed a hose with permanent green dye on all looters
and their stolen goods, then let them pass those goods on or try !!

Yes, it would be good fun. Personally, I'd like to see costed plans
for this eventuality. Would there be permanent Green-Liquid Squirting
Officers stationed every hundred yards in every city of the United
Kingdom, ready to spring into action once every ten or twenty years?
Or would there be a Green-Liquid Flying Squad, ready to travel at a
moment's notice in order to arrive after the looting's finished? Would
they be armed to protect them from being knocked out as a preliminary
to the looting?

We're all repelled, angry, afraid, and all those feelings: I'm not
taking the, er, yellow liquid out of you, but we have to be practical.
And what the practical measures are, I'm far from certain. And if we
want it to stop, we do have to ask why it happens -- and I for one am
far from certain about that, too.

--
Mike.

In article , Mike Lyle
writes
And if we
want it to stop, we do have to ask why it happens -- and I for one am
far from certain about that, too.

Indeed.

Personally, I think we're too far down a long long line of social
changes to have much chance of finding either a short or long term
solution.

To my mind - and I know its simplifying things a lot - the major causes
are a combination of:
the imperative to rampant consumerism (including 'must have'
advertising). This is unsustainable and inevitably socially divisive;

the city crowding that brings on the possibility of anonymity;

the modern ease of movemement (which allows people to shit on a
doorstep and move toot sweet).

Add all the other things discussed and its a recipe for societal
disaster.

--
regards andyw

In message ,
writes
In article , Mike Lyle
writes
And if we
want it to stop, we do have to ask why it happens -- and I for one am
far from certain about that, too.

Indeed.

Personally, I think we're too far down a long long line of social
changes to have much chance of finding either a short or long term
solution.

To my mind - and I know its simplifying things a lot - the major causes
are a combination of:
the imperative to rampant consumerism (including 'must have'
advertising). This is unsustainable and inevitably socially divisive;

the city crowding that brings on the possibility of anonymity;

the modern ease of movemement (which allows people to shit on a
doorstep and move toot sweet).

Add all the other things discussed and its a recipe for societal
disaster.

I agree with those rational comments.
--
Gordon H
Remove "invalid" to reply

In article , Mike Lyle
writes
Personally I'd have aimed a hose with permanent green dye on all looters
and their stolen goods, then let them pass those goods on or try !!

Yes, it would be good fun. Personally, I'd like to see costed plans
for this eventuality. Would there be permanent Green-Liquid Squirting
Officers s


Just add something to the water cannons Mike. Purely so that the looters
don't profit from their crimes and it would be so much easier to nail
the little oiks afterwards when their expensive haircut has been marred
b dye

I can understand huge rallies and marches and demonstrations that
sometimes can get out of control but I can never agree that any social
issue leads to purposeful looting and destruction of property. That's
purely a criminal act nothing to do with reaction to society etc.

Tom always said he could understand if men were stealing to actually
feed their families, i.e. food etc. but that's not the same as
deliberately torching a furniture store or grabbing alcohol and the
latest iphone. None of those shown on television looked as if they
needed a square meal and most of them wore high fashion clothing not
second-hand trainers and threadbare jackets!
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

In message , Mike Lyle
writes

Yes, it would be good fun. Personally, I'd like to see costed plans
for this eventuality. Would there be permanent Green-Liquid Squirting
Officers stationed every hundred yards in every city of the United
Kingdom, ready to spring into action once every ten or twenty years?
Or would there be a Green-Liquid Flying Squad, ready to travel at a
moment's notice in order to arrive after the looting's finished? Would
they be armed to protect them from being knocked out as a preliminary
to the looting?

LOL!

We're all repelled, angry, afraid, and all those feelings: I'm not
taking the, er, yellow liquid out of you, but we have to be practical.
And what the practical measures are, I'm far from certain. And if we
want it to stop, we do have to ask why it happens -- and I for one am
far from certain about that, too.

It's about time those taking this discussion seriously asked themselves
the question you pose.
Shrieking about savage and dubious retaliations does not provide the
answer. One of the best contributions I have heard to the debates
was on Newsnight, from a reformed black ex-criminal.
I doubt if many of the group will have struggled through his heavy
street accent, but he is the kind of person who can best give clues as
to the causes and the cure of youth crime.
--
Gordon H
Remove "invalid" to reply

In article , says...

In article , Sacha
writes
NS is often touted as a solution and I'm sure it would be a very
effective one. But the truth is that the services really don't want to
have to train a whole load of young people for two years and then lose
them back into civilian life.


They don't want to have to train and take care of a load of ungrateful,
ill adjusted, uncooperative yobs either. They have serious work to do

Surely, during conscripted National Service, that must have been exactly what the services
did have to deal with? Even though they had serious work to do.

Janet.

"Styx Lawyer" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

In article , Sacha
writes
NS is often touted as a solution and I'm sure it would be a very
effective one. But the truth is that the services really don't want to
have to train a whole load of young people for two years and then lose
them back into civilian life.


They don't want to have to train and take care of a load of ungrateful,
ill adjusted, uncooperative yobs either. They have serious work to do

Surely, during conscripted National Service, that must have been exactly
what the services
did have to deal with? Even though they had serious work to do.

Janet.


Correct



--

....................................

Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive.

....................................

In message , Styx
Lawyer writes
In article ,
says...

In article , Sacha
writes
NS is often touted as a solution and I'm sure it would be a very
effective one. But the truth is that the services really don't want to
have to train a whole load of young people for two years and then lose
them back into civilian life.

They don't want to have to train and take care of a load of ungrateful,
ill adjusted, uncooperative yobs either. They have serious work to do

Surely, during conscripted National Service, that must have been
exactly what the services
did have to deal with? Even though they had serious work to do.
Janet.

Most were just anxious to get it over with and get back to normal life,
IME. There were graduates and apprentices snatched after
deferment, for 4 years in my case. There were also a few
"characters" in our billet.

One lad was built like a gorilla, and I remember him bringing back
several trophies after a drink in the village pub.

A weighing machine appeared outside the fat sergeant's billet, carried
from outside the chemists' shop, - try lifting one. :-)

On another occasion he carried a kerb stone on his shoulder from the
other side of the camp, into the billet, and dropped it on someone's
bed.
It stretched the springs down to touch the floor, and took four of the
lads to lift it out and hide it somewhere outside.

Then there was the half-rotten railway sleeper he carried in and dropped
on the floor in the middle of the room, that made quite a mess and took
some removing!

Yobbish, yes, but he was never violent, and gave us some laughs until he
failed to return to camp after a day's volunteer spud-picking in the
fields had stretched to a fortnight. He then had 6 months in the
'glasshouse' to add to his service for AWOL.

I got on well with him, because we were both trad jazz fanatics at that
time.
--
Gordon H
Remove "invalid" to reply

In article , Styx
Lawyer writes
Surely, during conscripted National Service, that must have been exactly what the services
did have to deal with? Even though they had serious work to do.

Janet.


I don't think that those 17 year olds would have been quite so
obnoxious.
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:12:00 +0100, Janet Tweedy wrote:

Surely, during conscripted National Service, that must have been
exactly what the services did have to deal with? Even though they
had
serious work to do.

I don't think that those 17 year olds would have been quite so
obnoxious.

And the Drill Sargent wouldn't have stood for any nonsense.

--
Cheers
Dave.