I was given a Howard Gem Hatz 780 24" rotavator. I gave the chap £100
anyway.
It has a Kohler K301T engine.
It is in need of a good overhaul and was wondering if there are any like
minded people here. I will need engine parts though I have had it started.
Of course it looks like a heap of scrap and I am new to diesel engines but
I think I can do it.
If this is the wrong group, which I know it is, can someone point me to the
correct group?

Thanks
Baz

"Baz" wrote in message
...
I was given a Howard Gem Hatz 780 24" rotavator. I gave the chap £100
anyway.
It has a Kohler K301T engine.
It is in need of a good overhaul and was wondering if there are any like
minded people here. I will need engine parts though I have had it started.
Of course it looks like a heap of scrap and I am new to diesel engines but
I think I can do it.
If this is the wrong group, which I know it is, can someone point me to
the
correct group?

Thanks
Baz

Can't help you with your questions Baz but can endorse the Howard Gem. Had
one when I had the large garden in Leicester, that was a work horse. (Petrol
though)

2 Blocks of flats now :-)

Mike

--

....................................

I'm an Angel, honest ! The horns are there just to keep the halo straight.

....................................

On 23/10/2012 17:22, 'Mike' wrote:


"Baz" wrote in message
...
I was given a Howard Gem Hatz 780 24" rotavator. I gave the chap £100
anyway.
It has a Kohler K301T engine.
It is in need of a good overhaul and was wondering if there are any like
minded people here. I will need engine parts though I have had it
started.
Of course it looks like a heap of scrap and I am new to diesel engines
but
I think I can do it.
If this is the wrong group, which I know it is, can someone point me
to the
correct group?

Thanks
Baz

Can't help you with your questions Baz but can endorse the Howard Gem.
Had one when I had the large garden in Leicester, that was a work horse.
(Petrol though)

2 Blocks of flats now :-)

Mike

I never thought of converting my old Howard Gem into flats. I'd have
thought they would be a little cramped even if it is a fairly large
rotavator

On Tuesday, 23 October 2012 17:18:18 UTC+1, Baz wrote:
I was given a Howard Gem Hatz 780 24" rotavator. I gave the chap �100

anyway.

It has a Kohler K301T engine.

It is in need of a good overhaul and was wondering if there are any like

minded people here. I will need engine parts though I have had it started..

Of course it looks like a heap of scrap and I am new to diesel engines but

I think I can do it.

If this is the wrong group, which I know it is, can someone point me to the

correct group?



Thanks

Baz

I'm a bit confused about the engine on this one. You say it's a Hatz diesel, then you say it has a Kohler engine.
I only know of Kohlers as petrol engines. The Hatz diesel was a 2 stroke diesel engine, and a good one. So I wonder if it's had an engine transplant at some point, it's often the case with old Gems.
I can tell you a certain amount at least about operation of the Hatz diesel if in fact that's what it is. The Kohler petrol engines as fitted to the Gem were pretty much standard industrial engines that should be self explanatory to anyone experienced with larger petrol driven garden machines.
Try online for facsimile manuals, parts etc.
There used to be a rump of Dowdswell - the company that took over the brand after Howard went bust and you could get some spares from them but I don't know if they're still going.
A local firm that serviced our old Gem always seemed to be able to get bits and Gems are still being used by many landscape firms so you should be OK.

Rod

On 23/10/2012 19:31, Martin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:02:38 -0700 (PDT), Rod
wrote:

On Tuesday, 23 October 2012 17:18:18 UTC+1, Baz wrote:
I was given a Howard Gem Hatz 780 24" rotavator. I gave the chap ?100

anyway.

It has a Kohler K301T engine.

It is in need of a good overhaul and was wondering if there are any like

minded people here. I will need engine parts though I have had it started.

Of course it looks like a heap of scrap and I am new to diesel engines but

I think I can do it.

If this is the wrong group, which I know it is, can someone point me to the

correct group?



Thanks

Baz

I'm a bit confused about the engine on this one. You say it's a Hatz diesel, then you say it has a Kohler engine.

He said a Hatz mower. Baz is right see, except it is a petrol engine.
http://www.rescuingthepast.co.uk/Howard_Gem.html

I only know of Kohlers as petrol engines. The Hatz diesel was a 2 stroke diesel engine, and a good one. So I wonder if it's had an engine transplant at some point, it's often the case with old Gems.
I can tell you a certain amount at least about operation of the Hatz diesel if in fact that's what it is. The Kohler petrol engines as fitted to the Gem were pretty much standard industrial engines that should be self explanatory to anyone experienced with larger petrol driven garden machines.
Try online for facsimile manuals, parts etc.
There used to be a rump of Dowdswell - the company that took over the brand after Howard went bust and you could get some spares from them but I don't know if they're still going.
A local firm that serviced our old Gem always seemed to be able to get bits and Gems are still being used by many landscape firms so you should be OK.

Rod


I don't know if I am missing posts but Baz said it has a Kohler K301T
engine.
No mention of Hatz engine, He also said he has had it running.
I am sure that he can tell the difference between petrol and diesel, and
can tell if the engine has a spark plug or not.

David Hill wrote in
:


I'm a bit confused about the engine on this one. You say it's a Hatz
diesel, then you say it has a Kohler engine.

He said a Hatz mower. Baz is right see, except it is a petrol engine.
http://www.rescuingthepast.co.uk/Howard_Gem.html

I only know of Kohlers as petrol engines. The Hatz diesel was a 2
stroke diesel engine, and a good one. So I wonder if it's had an
engine transplant at some point, it's often the case with old Gems.
I can tell you a certain amount at least about operation of the Hatz
diesel if in fact that's what it is. The Kohler petrol engines as
fitted to the Gem were pretty much standard industrial engines that
should be self explanatory to anyone experienced with larger petrol
driven garden machines. Try online for facsimile manuals, parts etc.
There used to be a rump of Dowdswell - the company that took over
the brand after Howard went bust and you could get some spares from
them but I don't know if they're still going. A local firm that
serviced our old Gem always seemed to be able to get bits and Gems
are still being used by many landscape firms so you should be OK.

Rod


I don't know if I am missing posts but Baz said it has a Kohler K301T
engine.
No mention of Hatz engine, He also said he has had it running.
I am sure that he can tell the difference between petrol and diesel,
and can tell if the engine has a spark plug or not.

Confusion over I think.
It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the paperwork,
and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it could use
cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two engine
manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy still has the
Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too, just have to find
it and cart it home. What do you do with this?
I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a tool
and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.

Baz

On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 18:24:54 UTC+1, Baz wrote:
David Hill wrote in

:





I'm a bit confused about the engine on this one. You say it's a Hatz

diesel, then you say it has a Kohler engine.



He said a Hatz mower. Baz is right see, except it is a petrol engine.

http://www.rescuingthepast.co.uk/Howard_Gem.html



I only know of Kohlers as petrol engines. The Hatz diesel was a 2

stroke diesel engine, and a good one. So I wonder if it's had an

engine transplant at some point, it's often the case with old Gems.

I can tell you a certain amount at least about operation of the Hatz

diesel if in fact that's what it is. The Kohler petrol engines as

fitted to the Gem were pretty much standard industrial engines that

should be self explanatory to anyone experienced with larger petrol

driven garden machines. Try online for facsimile manuals, parts etc.

There used to be a rump of Dowdswell - the company that took over

the brand after Howard went bust and you could get some spares from

them but I don't know if they're still going. A local firm that

serviced our old Gem always seemed to be able to get bits and Gems

are still being used by many landscape firms so you should be OK.



Rod





I don't know if I am missing posts but Baz said it has a Kohler K301T

engine.

No mention of Hatz engine, He also said he has had it running.

I am sure that he can tell the difference between petrol and diesel,

and can tell if the engine has a spark plug or not.



Confusion over I think.

It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the paperwork,

and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it could use

cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two engine

manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy still has the

Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too, just have to find

it and cart it home. What do you do with this?

I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a tool

and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.



Baz

No problem, they're both good engines. Go get the Kohler engine, it's well worth keeping and Kohler is still going so spares should be OK.
Am I to take it that you've had the Hatz diesel going? If so you obviously know the procedure for starting etc.
For others who may be interested. The Hatz is a 2 stroke single cylinder air cooled diesel. Starting is slightly different from other more common small diesels in which a decompression lever is flicked over at a strategic point when you are swinging on the handle (you need 3 hands for this)
On the Hatz there is an indexing knob on the side of the engine - fully turned is full decompression and as you swing the engine over the decompression clicks off a click at a time - as small diesels go it's a dream to start.
For cold weather starting there is an L shaped lever in the cylinder head and this can be removed to insert a kind of fibrous 'match' red at the end like an old fashioned match into the end of the plug. This ignites on compression and acts like the 'glow plug' in other engines.
One little quirk which may be disturbing the first time it happens is; if you stall it on a housebrick or such, when you restart it after dislodging the obstruction it may (being a 2 stroke) start backwards and blow the oil out of the oil-bath air cleaner - never mind no harm done, refill the air cleaner and start again, this time all will be normal.
Oh and it runs forever on a tank of red diesel.
The Kohler in the housebrick situation may kick it out and inflict serious pain on your shins - a mate of mine used to wear cricket pads on newbuild sites)

Rod

Rod wrote in
:

On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 18:24:54 UTC+1, Baz wrote:
David Hill wrote in

:





I'm a bit confused about the engine on this one. You say it's a
Hatz

diesel, then you say it has a Kohler engine.



He said a Hatz mower. Baz is right see, except it is a petrol
engine.

http://www.rescuingthepast.co.uk/Howard_Gem.html



I only know of Kohlers as petrol engines. The Hatz diesel was a 2

stroke diesel engine, and a good one. So I wonder if it's had an

engine transplant at some point, it's often the case with old
Gems.


I can tell you a certain amount at least about operation of the
Hatz

diesel if in fact that's what it is. The Kohler petrol engines as

fitted to the Gem were pretty much standard industrial engines
that

should be self explanatory to anyone experienced with larger
petrol

driven garden machines. Try online for facsimile manuals, parts
etc.

There used to be a rump of Dowdswell - the company that took over

the brand after Howard went bust and you could get some spares
from

them but I don't know if they're still going. A local firm that

serviced our old Gem always seemed to be able to get bits and
Gems

are still being used by many landscape firms so you should be OK.



Rod





I don't know if I am missing posts but Baz said it has a Kohler
K301T


engine.

No mention of Hatz engine, He also said he has had it running.

I am sure that he can tell the difference between petrol and
diesel,

and can tell if the engine has a spark plug or not.



Confusion over I think.

It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the
paperwor
k,

and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it could use

cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two engine

manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy still has
the


Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too, just have to
fin
d

it and cart it home. What do you do with this?

I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a
tool


and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.



Baz

No problem, they're both good engines. Go get the Kohler engine, it's
well worth keeping and Kohler is still going so spares should be OK.
Am I to take it that you've had the Hatz diesel going? If so you
obviously know the procedure for starting etc. For others who may be
interested. The Hatz is a 2 stroke single cylinder air cooled diesel.
Starting is slightly different from other more common small diesels in
which a decompression lever is flicked over at a strategic point when
you are swinging on the handle (you need 3 hands for this) On the Hatz
there is an indexing knob on the side of the engine - fully turned is
full decompression and as you swing the engine over the decompression
clicks off a click at a time - as small diesels go it's a dream to
start. For cold weather starting there is an L shaped lever in the
cylinder head and this can be removed to insert a kind of fibrous
'match' red at the end like an old fashioned match into the end of the
plug. This ignites on compression and acts like the 'glow plug' in
other engines. One little quirk which may be disturbing the first
time it happens is; if you stall it on a housebrick or such, when you
restart it after dislodging the obstruction it may (being a 2 stroke)
start backwards and blow the oil out of the oil-bath air cleaner -
never mind no harm done, refill the air cleaner and start again, this
time all will be normal. Oh and it runs forever on a tank of red
diesel. The Kohler in the housebrick situation may kick it out and
inflict serious pain on your shins - a mate of mine used to wear
cricket pads on newbuild sites)

Rod


Thanks for the info.
When I was passing this over the allotment today, and was splattered with
drops of mud I was thinking what would happen if it stalled and stroked
backwards. I think I have some cricket gear somewhere.......

Baz

Martin wrote in
:

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:24:53 GMT, Baz wrote:


Confusion over I think.
It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the
paperwork, and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it
could use cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two
engine manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy
still has the Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too,
just have to find it and cart it home. What do you do with this?
I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a
tool and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.

Baz

Thanks for making everything clear, Baz.

Good luck with your purchase and engines.

Well I have found tyres which I thought would be a bugger but not so.
Weather allowing it is going to be put to the test Sat. morning.
I will find somewhere to buy red deisel! VAT free.

Baz

On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 7:27:23 PM UTC+1, Baz wrote:
Martin wrote in

:



On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:24:53 GMT, Baz wrote:





Confusion over I think.

It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the

paperwork, and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it

could use cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two

engine manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy

still has the Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too,

just have to find it and cart it home. What do you do with this?

I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a

tool and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.



Baz



Thanks for making everything clear, Baz.



Good luck with your purchase and engines.



Well I have found tyres which I thought would be a bugger but not so.

Weather allowing it is going to be put to the test Sat. morning.

I will find somewhere to buy red deisel! VAT free.



Baz

Red has 5% VAT...........used to be much cheaper than it is now, but price was increased as so many people are using it in road going vehicles now.

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 18:27:22 GMT, Baz wrote:

It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the
paperwork, and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it
could use cheaper red diesel.

Ahh.... thanks for the clarification.

The guy still has the Kohler engine according to his son and that is
mine too, just have to find it and cart it home. What do you do with
this?

Keep it as a spare? Or find/build something to mount it on, clean it up
to "showroom" condition and run it at stationary engine shows.

I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a
tool and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.

"restore" in my book is maintain properly, ie clean it after use. Keep
the engine fettled, oil changes etc, repair carefully if required. Store
in decent conditions.

Well I have found tyres which I thought would be a bugger but not so.
Weather allowing it is going to be put to the test Sat. morning.

Go for it they look like fun but I have sneaky feeling they are not that
easy to control.

I will find somewhere to buy red deisel! VAT free.

You still pay VAT but the duty is only 11.14p/l rather than the 57.95p/l
on road diesel (46.81p/l difference). Last lot I bought in Dec '11 (25l)
was 90p/l. The local Spar currently advertises red at 98p/l.

I suspect the Hatz engine is none to fussy about fuel, it might run on
Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO), have a dig about on the web and see what
others have found. Mind you new cooking oil prices in 20l bulk quantities
are a similar price to red diesel. But if you have a cheap/free source
(local chippy, filter it first)... Starting from cold or in cold weather
with SVO might be tricky but that can eased by adding diesel, experiment.
Always assuming the engine will tun on SVO.

BTW The duty on red will rise on 1st Jan 2013 to 11.72p/l (+0.58p) and on
diesel/petrol to 60.97p/l (+3.02p).

--
Cheers
Dave.

Baz wrote:
I was given a Howard Gem Hatz 780 24" rotavator. I gave the chap £100
anyway.
It has a Kohler K301T engine.
It is in need of a good overhaul and was wondering if there are any like
minded people here. I will need engine parts though I have had it started.
Of course it looks like a heap of scrap and I am new to diesel engines but
I think I can do it.

I don't think the Kohler K301T is a diesel is it? I have a rotavator
with a Kohler engine and mine's certainly petrol.

--
Chris Green

On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 20:27:44 +0200, Martin wrote:

It has a Kohler K301T engine.

I don't think the Kohler K301T is a diesel is it? I have a rotavator
with a Kohler engine and mine's certainly petrol.

It's a 4 stroke single cylinder air cooled 12 hp engine, that runs on
unleaded petrol ...

Depends what is fitted to Baz's particular rotovator. Seems as if various
petrol or diesel engines have been fitted (but perhaps not to his
particular model):

http://www.howardgem.webs.com/

Baz say's he has had it started, the procedure for that would be a give
away. It's a pretty damn well near impossible to pull start a diesel
without releasing the compression, spinning it up, dropping in the
compression and hoping the flywheel has enough inertia to take it through
compression and for it to fire. The presence, or not, of a spark plug is
also a big hint...

On parts and advice another place to ask might be
uk.rec.engines.stationary but it's very quiet in there.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:28:03 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Baz say's he has had it started, the procedure for that would be a give
away. It's a pretty damn well near impossible to pull start a diesel
without releasing the compression, spinning it up, dropping in the
compression and hoping the flywheel has enough inertia to take it through
compression and for it to fire.

Its funny when I hear people say that, I used to do it daily. I daresay its true for car sized engines.


NT

On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 16:49:53 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

It's a pretty damn well near impossible to pull start a diesel
without releasing the compression, spinning it up, dropping in the
compression and hoping the flywheel has enough inertia to take it
through compression and for it to fire.

Its funny when I hear people say that, I used to do it daily. I daresay
its true for car sized engines.

My little (300cc) single cylinder diesel genset is almost impossible to
pull through compression. It can be done but it's not very pleasant on
the fingers and more than two or three pulls hurts the arm. Because it's
so hard to pull it might not fire as it's not going fast enough and the
cylinder/block is cold. *Much* easier to operate the decompression
lever... Some engines have cunning automatic decompression mechanisiums.

By comparison a petrol engine has very little compression. Think about
the effort needed to half push in a bicycle pump with the end blocked and
the effort required to push it in to within the last inch of the end.

--
Cheers
Dave.