On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 2:58:03 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 04:37:07 -0700 (PDT), meow2222 wrote:

My little (300cc) single cylinder diesel genset ...

I've no idea what engine size the 7kVA generator was, but it started on
the handle ok. Too much force required for a pullcord. I expect less
than 300cc.

My genset is only 2kVA... For a 7kVA set I'd expect an engine over over
1000cc.

I figured if a 1.8d can produce somewhere in the region of 100hp = 75kW, 200cc would power a 7kVA gen at 6000rpm, or 600cc at 2000rpm, very roughly.. Single speed operation offers better optimisation & efficiency, but gen engines are more basic than car engines.

300cc 2kVA with 80% gen efficiency means about 2.4kVA = 12.5l per 100kVA or 1.05l per 7kVA.

OTOH I later had a 1.5 petrol that was much harder to handle crank, why I don't know. Probably a good thing as it had no spark retard provision!


You can get a lot more umph into a handle than you can a
pullcord, just keep your thumbs out of the way. B-)

Heh


NT

Gem service and repair manual, covers both petrol and diesel:
http://www.allotment.org.uk/media/83...air-manual.pdf

David Hill wrote in
:


I'm a bit confused about the engine on this one. You say it's a Hatz
diesel, then you say it has a Kohler engine.

He said a Hatz mower. Baz is right see, except it is a petrol engine.
http://www.rescuingthepast.co.uk/Howard_Gem.html

I only know of Kohlers as petrol engines. The Hatz diesel was a 2
stroke diesel engine, and a good one. So I wonder if it's had an
engine transplant at some point, it's often the case with old Gems.
I can tell you a certain amount at least about operation of the Hatz
diesel if in fact that's what it is. The Kohler petrol engines as
fitted to the Gem were pretty much standard industrial engines that
should be self explanatory to anyone experienced with larger petrol
driven garden machines. Try online for facsimile manuals, parts etc.
There used to be a rump of Dowdswell - the company that took over
the brand after Howard went bust and you could get some spares from
them but I don't know if they're still going. A local firm that
serviced our old Gem always seemed to be able to get bits and Gems
are still being used by many landscape firms so you should be OK.

Rod


I don't know if I am missing posts but Baz said it has a Kohler K301T
engine.
No mention of Hatz engine, He also said he has had it running.
I am sure that he can tell the difference between petrol and diesel,
and can tell if the engine has a spark plug or not.

Confusion over I think.
It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the paperwork,
and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it could use
cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two engine
manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy still has the
Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too, just have to find
it and cart it home. What do you do with this?
I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a tool
and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.

Baz

Martin wrote in
:

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:24:53 GMT, Baz wrote:


Confusion over I think.
It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the
paperwork, and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it
could use cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two
engine manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy
still has the Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too,
just have to find it and cart it home. What do you do with this?
I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a
tool and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.

Baz

Thanks for making everything clear, Baz.

Good luck with your purchase and engines.

Well I have found tyres which I thought would be a bugger but not so.
Weather allowing it is going to be put to the test Sat. morning.
I will find somewhere to buy red deisel! VAT free.

Baz

On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 7:27:23 PM UTC+1, Baz wrote:
Martin wrote in

:



On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:24:53 GMT, Baz wrote:





Confusion over I think.

It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the

paperwork, and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it

could use cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two

engine manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy

still has the Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too,

just have to find it and cart it home. What do you do with this?

I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a

tool and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.



Baz



Thanks for making everything clear, Baz.



Good luck with your purchase and engines.



Well I have found tyres which I thought would be a bugger but not so.

Weather allowing it is going to be put to the test Sat. morning.

I will find somewhere to buy red deisel! VAT free.



Baz

Red has 5% VAT...........used to be much cheaper than it is now, but price was increased as so many people are using it in road going vehicles now.

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 18:27:22 GMT, Baz wrote:

It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the
paperwork, and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it
could use cheaper red diesel.

Ahh.... thanks for the clarification.

The guy still has the Kohler engine according to his son and that is
mine too, just have to find it and cart it home. What do you do with
this?

Keep it as a spare? Or find/build something to mount it on, clean it up
to "showroom" condition and run it at stationary engine shows.

I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a
tool and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.

"restore" in my book is maintain properly, ie clean it after use. Keep
the engine fettled, oil changes etc, repair carefully if required. Store
in decent conditions.

Well I have found tyres which I thought would be a bugger but not so.
Weather allowing it is going to be put to the test Sat. morning.

Go for it they look like fun but I have sneaky feeling they are not that
easy to control.

I will find somewhere to buy red deisel! VAT free.

You still pay VAT but the duty is only 11.14p/l rather than the 57.95p/l
on road diesel (46.81p/l difference). Last lot I bought in Dec '11 (25l)
was 90p/l. The local Spar currently advertises red at 98p/l.

I suspect the Hatz engine is none to fussy about fuel, it might run on
Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO), have a dig about on the web and see what
others have found. Mind you new cooking oil prices in 20l bulk quantities
are a similar price to red diesel. But if you have a cheap/free source
(local chippy, filter it first)... Starting from cold or in cold weather
with SVO might be tricky but that can eased by adding diesel, experiment.
Always assuming the engine will tun on SVO.

BTW The duty on red will rise on 1st Jan 2013 to 11.72p/l (+0.58p) and on
diesel/petrol to 60.97p/l (+3.02p).

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 13:43:50 -0700 (PDT), Simple simon wrote:

Red has 5% VAT...........

Are you sure? I thought the only stuff that attracted the 5% VAT rate was
"domestic fuel" be that electricity, gas, kerosene (28sec oil) or gas oil
(35sec oil not for road use, aka red diesel).

I'd expect red diesel for non domestic fuel use to attract 20% VAT.

... but price was increased as so many people are using it in road
going vehicles now.

Just don't get caught. B-) They impound the vehicle on the spot and
prosecute. There are "hidden" markers as well as the visible red dye, so
a tank dip is not just sticking a large pippette into the tank and
looking at the colour of the fuel, they also test for the hidden markers.
Also be aware that the hidden markers are not as easy as the dye to
remove.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:23:07 +0200, Martin wrote:

Aiui, they not only impound the vehicle and impose a fine, they can
send the vehicle to the knacker's yard, too!

From what I have read they do send the vehicles to the knacker's yard.
they do the same to vehicles that are stopped where the driver has no
insurance.

Or the vehicle isn't taxed. No deterrent to people happy to drive about
in an old banger worth less than tax + insurance + MOT though. If they
are prepared to break thos laws not having or having taken away their
driving licence isn't going to bother them either.

The markers are detectable in the tested fuel long after the illegal
fuel was used.

I wonder what HMR&C would do if they tested a vehicle and it was positive
and the current owner denied ever using red in it. But a previous owner
had... Should people buying second hand diesels get the fuel system
tested?

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.co.uk:


I wonder what HMR&C would do if they tested a vehicle and it was
positive and the current owner denied ever using red in it. But a
previous owner had... Should people buying second hand diesels get the
fuel system tested?


The current owner would definatly be prosecuted and the vehicle impounded.
It is up to the current owner to make sure the vehicle is 100% legal in all
areas. There is no movement in the law. The owner is responsible.
I wonder if a new owner could possibly check a vehicle economically, surely
it would cost hundreds if not thousands.
Apart from a HPI and safety check I would ride my luck with a second hand
vehicle.

Baz

"Pete C" wrote in
:


"Baz" wrote in message
...
I was given a Howard Gem Hatz 780 24" rotavator. I gave the chap £100
anyway.
It has a Kohler K301T engine.
It is in need of a good overhaul and was wondering if there are any
like minded people here. I will need engine parts though I have had
it started. Of course it looks like a heap of scrap and I am new to
diesel engines but I think I can do it.
If this is the wrong group, which I know it is, can someone point me
to the
correct group?


Baz, have a look here....
http://chat.allotment.org.uk/
scroll down to 'equipment shed'......might get some advice there.
HTH
Pete C




Nice one. I will explore it in depth when I can soon. Just the sort of
thing I am looking for.
Right now, seeing that I have a very long weekend, I have the thing started
and running, and am going to run it over the garden 'cos I can't wait.
It's been running for about 5mins and it sounds less rattly and no smoke so
I think it would be rude not to give it a go. New toy.

Thanks for the link
Baz

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:28:01 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:



The markers are detectable in the tested fuel long after the illegal
fuel was used.

I wonder what HMR&C would do if they tested a vehicle and it was positive
and the current owner denied ever using red in it. But a previous owner
had... Should people buying second hand diesels get the fuel system
tested?

There must be precedents for this as during one of the fuel shortages
,possibly the delivery drivers strike in 2000* HMRC allowed some
haulers to use stocks of red diesel in place of DERV. This did not
mean they could avoid paying the higher duty as users were required to
declare what they had used and pay it. A reasonable no of vehicles
must have had some red put through them.
For an individual a risk which may be difficult to talk your way out
of is using a fuel can normally used to get red home from a pump is
pressed into service for to carry some Derv instead. You need to check
the can was really empty and dry before using it.

G.Harman

Janet wrote in
:

In article ,
says...

Right now, seeing that I have a very long weekend, I have the thing
started and running, and am going to run it over the garden 'cos I
can't wait.

Pull up and discard any couch grass before rotovating.

Otherwise your rotovator will make and plant a zillion viable
cuttings
of couchgrass.. don't ask how I know ...

Janet.


I always make sure of not breaking up weeds and roots. As far as I can
practicably not do so.
I won't ask how you know. Thanks for the warning.
Pity that our food plants are the opposite and we have to plant or sow
every year.

Baz

On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 18:24:54 UTC+1, Baz wrote:
David Hill wrote in

:





I'm a bit confused about the engine on this one. You say it's a Hatz

diesel, then you say it has a Kohler engine.



He said a Hatz mower. Baz is right see, except it is a petrol engine.

http://www.rescuingthepast.co.uk/Howard_Gem.html



I only know of Kohlers as petrol engines. The Hatz diesel was a 2

stroke diesel engine, and a good one. So I wonder if it's had an

engine transplant at some point, it's often the case with old Gems.

I can tell you a certain amount at least about operation of the Hatz

diesel if in fact that's what it is. The Kohler petrol engines as

fitted to the Gem were pretty much standard industrial engines that

should be self explanatory to anyone experienced with larger petrol

driven garden machines. Try online for facsimile manuals, parts etc.

There used to be a rump of Dowdswell - the company that took over

the brand after Howard went bust and you could get some spares from

them but I don't know if they're still going. A local firm that

serviced our old Gem always seemed to be able to get bits and Gems

are still being used by many landscape firms so you should be OK.



Rod





I don't know if I am missing posts but Baz said it has a Kohler K301T

engine.

No mention of Hatz engine, He also said he has had it running.

I am sure that he can tell the difference between petrol and diesel,

and can tell if the engine has a spark plug or not.



Confusion over I think.

It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the paperwork,

and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it could use

cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two engine

manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy still has the

Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too, just have to find

it and cart it home. What do you do with this?

I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a tool

and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.



Baz

No problem, they're both good engines. Go get the Kohler engine, it's well worth keeping and Kohler is still going so spares should be OK.
Am I to take it that you've had the Hatz diesel going? If so you obviously know the procedure for starting etc.
For others who may be interested. The Hatz is a 2 stroke single cylinder air cooled diesel. Starting is slightly different from other more common small diesels in which a decompression lever is flicked over at a strategic point when you are swinging on the handle (you need 3 hands for this)
On the Hatz there is an indexing knob on the side of the engine - fully turned is full decompression and as you swing the engine over the decompression clicks off a click at a time - as small diesels go it's a dream to start.
For cold weather starting there is an L shaped lever in the cylinder head and this can be removed to insert a kind of fibrous 'match' red at the end like an old fashioned match into the end of the plug. This ignites on compression and acts like the 'glow plug' in other engines.
One little quirk which may be disturbing the first time it happens is; if you stall it on a housebrick or such, when you restart it after dislodging the obstruction it may (being a 2 stroke) start backwards and blow the oil out of the oil-bath air cleaner - never mind no harm done, refill the air cleaner and start again, this time all will be normal.
Oh and it runs forever on a tank of red diesel.
The Kohler in the housebrick situation may kick it out and inflict serious pain on your shins - a mate of mine used to wear cricket pads on newbuild sites)

Rod

Baz wrote in
:

"Pete C" wrote in
:


"Baz" wrote in message
...
I was given a Howard Gem Hatz 780 24" rotavator. I gave the chap £100
anyway.
It has a Kohler K301T engine.
It is in need of a good overhaul and was wondering if there are any
like minded people here. I will need engine parts though I have had
it started. Of course it looks like a heap of scrap and I am new to
diesel engines but I think I can do it.
If this is the wrong group, which I know it is, can someone point me
to the
correct group?


Baz, have a look here....
http://chat.allotment.org.uk/
scroll down to 'equipment shed'......might get some advice there.
HTH
Pete C




Nice one. I will explore it in depth when I can soon. Just the sort of
thing I am looking for.
Right now, seeing that I have a very long weekend, I have the thing
started and running, and am going to run it over the garden 'cos I
can't wait. It's been running for about 5mins and it sounds less
rattly and no smoke so I think it would be rude not to give it a go.
New toy.

Thanks for the link
Baz

I tried this rotavator at home on my light soil and it was OK, just too
heavy and it got bogged down sometimes.
Today I passed it over the allotment which is clay soil and it is a
dream, quite muddy conditions but it is up to the job. Like a knife
through hot butter. Neve did the revs. go down even through parts that
have not been forked over. Its a messy thing. Chucks mud at me. A few
modifications like mudflaps need to be done somehow. It is also an art to
turn the thing around at the end of a pass.
All in all a pretty good experience.

Baz

Rod wrote in
:

On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 18:24:54 UTC+1, Baz wrote:
David Hill wrote in

:





I'm a bit confused about the engine on this one. You say it's a
Hatz

diesel, then you say it has a Kohler engine.



He said a Hatz mower. Baz is right see, except it is a petrol
engine.

http://www.rescuingthepast.co.uk/Howard_Gem.html



I only know of Kohlers as petrol engines. The Hatz diesel was a 2

stroke diesel engine, and a good one. So I wonder if it's had an

engine transplant at some point, it's often the case with old
Gems.


I can tell you a certain amount at least about operation of the
Hatz

diesel if in fact that's what it is. The Kohler petrol engines as

fitted to the Gem were pretty much standard industrial engines
that

should be self explanatory to anyone experienced with larger
petrol

driven garden machines. Try online for facsimile manuals, parts
etc.

There used to be a rump of Dowdswell - the company that took over

the brand after Howard went bust and you could get some spares
from

them but I don't know if they're still going. A local firm that

serviced our old Gem always seemed to be able to get bits and
Gems

are still being used by many landscape firms so you should be OK.



Rod





I don't know if I am missing posts but Baz said it has a Kohler
K301T


engine.

No mention of Hatz engine, He also said he has had it running.

I am sure that he can tell the difference between petrol and
diesel,

and can tell if the engine has a spark plug or not.



Confusion over I think.

It was bought new with a Kohler petrol engine, as it says on the
paperwor
k,

and was later fitted with the Hatz diesel in the 70's so it could use

cheaper red diesel. I have never heard of any of the two engine

manufacturers before so it's very exciting really. The guy still has
the


Kohler engine according to his son and that is mine too, just have to
fin
d

it and cart it home. What do you do with this?

I am tempted to restore this beautiful machine, but for now it is a
tool


and it runs nicely, a bit rattly.



Baz

No problem, they're both good engines. Go get the Kohler engine, it's
well worth keeping and Kohler is still going so spares should be OK.
Am I to take it that you've had the Hatz diesel going? If so you
obviously know the procedure for starting etc. For others who may be
interested. The Hatz is a 2 stroke single cylinder air cooled diesel.
Starting is slightly different from other more common small diesels in
which a decompression lever is flicked over at a strategic point when
you are swinging on the handle (you need 3 hands for this) On the Hatz
there is an indexing knob on the side of the engine - fully turned is
full decompression and as you swing the engine over the decompression
clicks off a click at a time - as small diesels go it's a dream to
start. For cold weather starting there is an L shaped lever in the
cylinder head and this can be removed to insert a kind of fibrous
'match' red at the end like an old fashioned match into the end of the
plug. This ignites on compression and acts like the 'glow plug' in
other engines. One little quirk which may be disturbing the first
time it happens is; if you stall it on a housebrick or such, when you
restart it after dislodging the obstruction it may (being a 2 stroke)
start backwards and blow the oil out of the oil-bath air cleaner -
never mind no harm done, refill the air cleaner and start again, this
time all will be normal. Oh and it runs forever on a tank of red
diesel. The Kohler in the housebrick situation may kick it out and
inflict serious pain on your shins - a mate of mine used to wear
cricket pads on newbuild sites)

Rod


Thanks for the info.
When I was passing this over the allotment today, and was splattered with
drops of mud I was thinking what would happen if it stalled and stroked
backwards. I think I have some cricket gear somewhere.......

Baz