On 16/07/2013 09:13, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Just to note that despite the hot, dry weather and the forecast that this
may go on for a long time people are still cutting lawns to almost bare
earth for some reason.

Probably in the hope that all the grass will be completely removed, thus
ending the need to do any mowing once and for all.

Is there a more environmentally unfriendly garden plant than lawn grass?

--

Jeff

On 2013-07-16 13:03:13 +0100, Jeff Layman said:

On 16/07/2013 09:13, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Just to note that despite the hot, dry weather and the forecast that this
may go on for a long time people are still cutting lawns to almost bare
earth for some reason.

Probably in the hope that all the grass will be completely removed,
thus ending the need to do any mowing once and for all.

Is there a more environmentally unfriendly garden plant than lawn grass?

About 6 years ago I was considering building a little house in Crete. I
didn't in the end but we were taken around by the architect to show us
what various foreigners had built above Elounda. I remember one house
had an enormous lawn, in full view of the public passing by and on
which nobody would want to sit, as a result. He told us that this kind
of thing was deeply unpopular with the Cretans who were used to
conserving every drop of water to use on useful food giving plants!
This house belonged to a German family, so it wasn't a manifestation of
the British passion for lawns! And they'd built the house as an exact
replica of their house in Germany, complete with a vast wall encircling
it. Home from home, I suppose!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Sacha wrote:

I remember one house
had an enormous lawn, in full view of the public passing by and on
which nobody would want to sit, as a result. He told us that this kind
of thing was deeply unpopular with the Cretans who were used to
conserving every drop of water to use on useful food giving plants!

Not limited to Europeans: I remember touring the Rosicrutians'
headquarters in San Jose, California.... several acres of lush lawn with
built in sprinklers that watered every night, since the area only gets
meaningful rain in the spring. More sensible folk used various succulents
for landscaping; a restaurant I dined at several times had a beautiful
hedge of Jade plants.

--
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

On 2013-07-16 14:38:53 +0100, Gary Woods said:

Sacha wrote:

I remember one house
had an enormous lawn, in full view of the public passing by and on
which nobody would want to sit, as a result. He told us that this kind
of thing was deeply unpopular with the Cretans who were used to
conserving every drop of water to use on useful food giving plants!

Not limited to Europeans: I remember touring the Rosicrutians'
headquarters in San Jose, California.... several acres of lush lawn with
built in sprinklers that watered every night, since the area only gets
meaningful rain in the spring. More sensible folk used various succulents
for landscaping; a restaurant I dined at several times had a beautiful
hedge of Jade plants.

Before I sold the house I owned when I met Ray, I let it to an American
from New Mexico. She told me that every shrub in her garden had its
own drip feed. Perish the thought of planting what was suitable to the
conditions!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:37:07 PM UTC+1, Sacha wrote:
On 2013-07-16 14:38:53 +0100, Gary Woods said:



Sacha wrote:



I remember one house

had an enormous lawn, in full view of the public passing by and on

which nobody would want to sit, as a result. He told us that this kind

of thing was deeply unpopular with the Cretans who were used to

conserving every drop of water to use on useful food giving plants!



Not limited to Europeans: I remember touring the Rosicrutians'

headquarters in San Jose, California.... several acres of lush lawn with

built in sprinklers that watered every night, since the area only gets

meaningful rain in the spring. More sensible folk used various succulents

for landscaping; a restaurant I dined at several times had a beautiful

hedge of Jade plants.



Before I sold the house I owned when I met Ray, I let it to an American

from New Mexico. She told me that every shrub in her garden had its

own drip feed. Perish the thought of planting what was suitable to the

conditions!

--



Sacha

www.hillhousenursery.com

South Devon

www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Every plant in our garden has to pass the 'Spartan baby on the mountain test'.
Though we will water until new plants are established.
Rod

On 2013-07-16 21:09:11 +0100, Rod said:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:37:07 PM UTC+1, Sacha wrote:
On 2013-07-16 14:38:53 +0100, Gary Woods said:



Sacha wrote:



I remember one house

had an enormous lawn, in full view of the public passing by and on

which nobody would want to sit, as a result. He told us that this kind

of thing was deeply unpopular with the Cretans who were used to

conserving every drop of water to use on useful food giving plants!



Not limited to Europeans: I remember touring the Rosicrutians'

headquarters in San Jose, California.... several acres of lush lawn with

built in sprinklers that watered every night, since the area only gets

meaningful rain in the spring. More sensible folk used various succulents

for landscaping; a restaurant I dined at several times had a beautiful

hedge of Jade plants.



Before I sold the house I owned when I met Ray, I let it to an American

from New Mexico. She told me that every shrub in her garden had its

own drip feed. Perish the thought of planting what was suitable to the

conditions!

--
Sacha



Every plant in our garden has to pass the 'Spartan baby on the mountain test'.
Though we will water until new plants are established.
Rod

That seems the way to go to me! Usually, in UK, it's more often a case
of things dying from too much wet, so we adjust our planting
accordingly and in that respect, gardeners in this country are (mostly)
rather lucky.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 2013-07-17 11:40:43 +0100, Martin said:

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 14:25:30 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2013-07-16 13:03:13 +0100, Jeff Layman said:

On 16/07/2013 09:13, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Just to note that despite the hot, dry weather and the forecast that this
may go on for a long time people are still cutting lawns to almost bare
earth for some reason.

Probably in the hope that all the grass will be completely removed,
thus ending the need to do any mowing once and for all.

Is there a more environmentally unfriendly garden plant than lawn grass?

About 6 years ago I was considering building a little house in Crete. I
didn't in the end but we were taken around by the architect to show us
what various foreigners had built above Elounda. I remember one house
had an enormous lawn, in full view of the public passing by and on
which nobody would want to sit, as a result. He told us that this kind
of thing was deeply unpopular with the Cretans who were used to
conserving every drop of water to use on useful food giving plants!
This house belonged to a German family, so it wasn't a manifestation of
the British passion for lawns! And they'd built the house as an exact
replica of their house in Germany, complete with a vast wall encircling
it. Home from home, I suppose!

West Berliners?

I don't know. I'm afraid Germans are still unpopular in Crete, so I'm
not sure any more detail was known or desired.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 2013-07-17 12:26:24 +0100, Martin said:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:45:07 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2013-07-17 11:40:43 +0100, Martin said:

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 14:25:30 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2013-07-16 13:03:13 +0100, Jeff Layman said:

On 16/07/2013 09:13, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Just to note that despite the hot, dry weather and the forecast that this
may go on for a long time people are still cutting lawns to almost bare
earth for some reason.

Probably in the hope that all the grass will be completely removed,
thus ending the need to do any mowing once and for all.

Is there a more environmentally unfriendly garden plant than lawn grass?

About 6 years ago I was considering building a little house in Crete. I
didn't in the end but we were taken around by the architect to show us
what various foreigners had built above Elounda. I remember one house
had an enormous lawn, in full view of the public passing by and on
which nobody would want to sit, as a result. He told us that this kind
of thing was deeply unpopular with the Cretans who were used to
conserving every drop of water to use on useful food giving plants!
This house belonged to a German family, so it wasn't a manifestation of
the British passion for lawns! And they'd built the house as an exact
replica of their house in Germany, complete with a vast wall encircling
it. Home from home, I suppose!

West Berliners?

I don't know. I'm afraid Germans are still unpopular in Crete, so I'm
not sure any more detail was known or desired.

I referred to the house being encircled by a vast wall.

Duh! Sorry, I didn't get that one.

Germans maybe unpopular in Crete but else where in Greece there are
places where Germans are popular, just as they were in some parts of
Greece during WWII. On the west coast of the Peloponnese Germans are
popular to the point where Greek children are sent to Germany to be
educated.

Could be. I just know it's not the case in Crete, though obviously one
can hope things change over the passage of more years.


--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 2013-07-18 08:56:34 +0000, Martin said:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:19:09 +0100, Sacha wrote:

snipI agree with you about the attitude to Germans in Crete.

We stayed several times in a Greek hotel where at least three
generations of the family that owned the hotel had been educated in
Germany. I didn't like to ask about the great grand parents.

I've been to quite a few parts of Greece but have never noticed this
more particularly than in Crete. One village (we were told) has a firm
policy of refusing ever to sell property to Germans. And the attitude
certainly changes when one makes it clear one is British! My ex-husband
took after his Italian mother in colouring but for some reason, the
Cretans thought he was German. The friendliness when they discovered
he was British was remarkable! The problem with these things is if
they're passed down the generations, long after the original cause of
enmity has passed. I've met young Greeks in Cyprus who were abysmally
rude about Turks and their living habits. But that's a battle that's
still raging in its own way. Anyway now totally OT and not a happy
subject!

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

On 16/07/2013 13:03, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 16/07/2013 09:13, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Just to note that despite the hot, dry weather and the forecast that this
may go on for a long time people are still cutting lawns to almost bare
earth for some reason.

Probably in the hope that all the grass will be completely removed, thus
ending the need to do any mowing once and for all.

Is there a more environmentally unfriendly garden plant than lawn grass?





I think the lawn is a very environmentally friendly planting. It is good
for wildlife; it is good for soaking up excess rainwater; it is good for
stopping soil erosion, esp on sloping ground; it is good at providing
low-level humidity (even on a summer's day I have to wait for the
morning dew to dry before mowing).

To pick up on David's point, it doesn't really need mowing mindlessly
every week whether it needs it or not. It's people, or at any rate some
'gardeners', who are environmentally unfriendly.

During such hot weather, the best way to neaten a lawn is not to mow it,
but to trim the edges.

--
Spider
from high ground in SE London
gardening on clay

On 16/07/2013 14:50, Spider wrote:
On 16/07/2013 13:03, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 16/07/2013 09:13, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Just to note that despite the hot, dry weather and the forecast that this
may go on for a long time people are still cutting lawns to almost bare
earth for some reason.

Probably in the hope that all the grass will be completely removed, thus
ending the need to do any mowing once and for all.

Is there a more environmentally unfriendly garden plant than lawn grass?





I think the lawn is a very environmentally friendly planting. It is good
for wildlife; it is good for soaking up excess rainwater; it is good for
stopping soil erosion, esp on sloping ground; it is good at providing
low-level humidity (even on a summer's day I have to wait for the
morning dew to dry before mowing).

Most lawns are near monocultures (lawn-obsessives have an absolute
monoculture). Any broad-leaved "weeds" are dealt with, usually by
chemical means. Environmentally unfriendly - not just for wildlife.
Think of the energy and waste issues in manufacturing those chemicals.

Then they use fertiliser, which is imported. Environmentally unfriendly
as it uses fossil fuels to get here.

Then they mow it (after encouraging it to grow with fertiliser!).
Environmentally unfriendly (unless they use a push-mower)) as the mower
will use petrol or electricity, again unnecessarily using fossil fuels.
And what about the energy used in manufacturing lawnmowers?

Not to mention the thousands of litres of water used unnecessarily.
Lawns don't need watering. Environmentally unfriendly water waste, and
pollution of waterways with weedkiller and fertiliser run-off.

As for stopping soil erosion, any plant with a decent root system will
do that. Soaking up water? Well, I doubt it, but haven't seen any
figures. I reckon a decent-sized tree, or even large shrub, will take
up a lot more water than grass from the same surface area.

Low level humidity? Well, yes, but you get that on any plant, not just
grass.

--

Jeff

On 17/07/2013 09:28, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 16/07/2013 14:50, Spider wrote:
On 16/07/2013 13:03, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 16/07/2013 09:13, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Just to note that despite the hot, dry weather and the forecast that
this
may go on for a long time people are still cutting lawns to almost bare
earth for some reason.

Probably in the hope that all the grass will be completely removed, thus
ending the need to do any mowing once and for all.

Is there a more environmentally unfriendly garden plant than lawn grass?





I think the lawn is a very environmentally friendly planting. It is good
for wildlife; it is good for soaking up excess rainwater; it is good for
stopping soil erosion, esp on sloping ground; it is good at providing
low-level humidity (even on a summer's day I have to wait for the
morning dew to dry before mowing).


Most lawns are near monocultures (lawn-obsessives have an absolute
monoculture). Any broad-leaved "weeds" are dealt with, usually by
chemical means. Environmentally unfriendly - not just for wildlife.
Think of the energy and waste issues in manufacturing those chemicals.

Then they use fertiliser, which is imported. Environmentally unfriendly
as it uses fossil fuels to get here.

Then they mow it (after encouraging it to grow with fertiliser!).
Environmentally unfriendly (unless they use a push-mower)) as the mower
will use petrol or electricity, again unnecessarily using fossil fuels.
And what about the energy used in manufacturing lawnmowers?

Not to mention the thousands of litres of water used unnecessarily.
Lawns don't need watering. Environmentally unfriendly water waste, and
pollution of waterways with weedkiller and fertiliser run-off.

As for stopping soil erosion, any plant with a decent root system will
do that. Soaking up water? Well, I doubt it, but haven't seen any
figures. I reckon a decent-sized tree, or even large shrub, will take up
a lot more water than grass from the same surface area.

Low level humidity? Well, yes, but you get that on any plant, not just
grass.





I dispute the fact that most lawns are monocultures. Bowling greens and
some golf courses may be, but not most lawns. Indeed, most of the lawns
I see - and I include public parks and gardens - are far from being
monocultures. Many contain clover, daisy, speedwell, selfheal, lesser
celandine, dandelions and some form of hawkweed, not to mention more
than one type of grass. Even alongside a groomed lawn, many public
gardens and verges have wild meadow areas. These would not be there if
chemicals were used in the quantities you suggest. I cannot deny that
some chemicals are used.

Mowing is a necessity from time-to-time, but the average gardener
probably only mows about once a fortnight in high summer. Some of my
neighbours leave off mowing for at least a month, and I don't think this
is unusual, judging by some of the rather 'wild' lawns I pass in my
travels. Personally, I mow about once a fortnight with a push mower,
and the cuttings either go on the compost heap or straight back on the
lawn. Either way, they end up feeding the lawn. I also prefer to weed
manually, so no chemicals used there. A very few of my neighbours use a
weed and feed chemical, but then not every year.

Lawns do soak up excess rainwater and, yes, of course gardens do as
well. The usual alternative to a lawn is concrete, paving or gravel,
all of which damage the environment but, unlike the lawn, offer nothing
to wildlife.

I don't water my lawn. I never said I did. As I said in my first post,
lawns are environmentally friendly, *some* gardeners definitely are not.
Lawns are not a problem; they are a choice and generally a good one as
far as the environment is concerned - especially when compared to the
alternatives.

--
Spider
from high ground in SE London
gardening on clay

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 1:03:13 PM UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:


Probably in the hope that all the grass will be completely removed, thus

ending the need to do any mowing once and for all.



Is there a more environmentally unfriendly garden plant than lawn grass?


Jeff

It doesn't have to be so.
Frequent mowing, not too short, other species especially clover encouraged.
Never fed, sprayed or watered - it won't die.
Then it's quite good for wildlife, a decent green backdrop for more interesting stuff.

Rod.

On 2013-07-16 21:14:47 +0100, Rod said:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 1:03:13 PM UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:


Probably in the hope that all the grass will be completely removed, thus

ending the need to do any mowing once and for all.



Is there a more environmentally unfriendly garden plant than lawn grass?


Jeff

It doesn't have to be so.
Frequent mowing, not too short, other species especially clover encouraged.
Never fed, sprayed or watered - it won't die.
Then it's quite good for wildlife, a decent green backdrop for more
interesting stuff.

Rod.

I do think there's a psychological aspect perhaps? While we all enjoy
going abroad and seeing paved terraces and seating areas outside cafés
etc., there's something very soothing and restful about a stretch of
grass! And is there a better sound than that of *someone else* cutting
it!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 16/07/2013 23:03, Sacha wrote:


I do think there's a psychological aspect perhaps? While we all enjoy
going abroad and seeing paved terraces and seating areas outside cafés
etc., there's something very soothing and restful about a stretch of
grass! And is there a better sound than that of *someone else* cutting it!

As long as they are using a push mower not a petrol horror.