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compost heap question
During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything
else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as often as during the summer? Thanks guys Shannie |
compost heap question
"Shannie" wrote in message ... During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as often as during the summer? My first thoughts on this are that you would be overloading your compost heap with the chemicals of which the ash is composed. Moreover, a person who believes in organic growing would (or should) object strongly to using ash in a garden, since ash is entirely inorganic. Franz |
compost heap question
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote: My first thoughts on this are that you would be overloading your compost heap with the chemicals of which the ash is composed. Moreover, a person who believes in organic growing would (or should) object strongly to using ash in a garden, since ash is entirely inorganic. I think perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of the term 'organic gardening' somewhat? There'd be nothing wrong with using peat ash, any more than there would be wood ash. Were you to take the Phurnacite ash from your Rayburn and shove it on the garden you'd veer off the straight and narrow. Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
compost heap question
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote:
...a person who believes in organic growing would (or should) object strongly to using ash in a garden, since ash is entirely inorganic. [I have a funny idea we've had this dispute before...] Franz, you're confusing (istm) the technical sense of the word "organic" as in "organic chemists make big stinks" with the broader sense meaning, roughly, integrated, treated as a whole, and so on. Organic gardening means afaict gardening without using synthetic fertilizers or pesti-/fungi-/insecticides. ~Wood~ ash is recognized among organic gardeners as a good source of potassium; indeed, our forefathers made soap from fat and wood ash. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada change "invalid" to "net" to respond |
compost heap question
"Stephen Howard" wrote in message ... On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: My first thoughts on this are that you would be overloading your compost heap with the chemicals of which the ash is composed. Moreover, a person who believes in organic growing would (or should) object strongly to using ash in a garden, since ash is entirely inorganic. I think perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of the term 'organic gardening' somewhat? There'd be nothing wrong with using peat ash, any more than there would be wood ash. Were you to take the Phurnacite ash from your Rayburn and shove it on the garden you'd veer off the straight and narrow. I will never, never understand the mysteries of this practice. Who lays down the do's and don'ts? Is there some democratically elected committee, or do the rules come from on high? Or does every member of the movement just invent them as they go? Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is kosher? I know the answer, of course, but it has nothing to do with "organic" or "not organic". Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"? Franz |
compost heap question
"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in message ... [snip] Franz, you're confusing (istm) the technical sense of the word "organic" as in "organic chemists make big stinks" with the broader sense meaning, roughly, integrated, treated as a whole, and so on. What is the difference *in principle* between the chemical processes which occur in the burning of wood and an exothermic reaction in a laboratory? In both cases, elements rearrange themselves in accordance with precisely the same underlying laws of quantum mechanics. Organic gardening means afaict gardening without using synthetic fertilizers or pesti-/fungi-/insecticides. ~Wood~ ash is recognized among organic gardeners as a good source of potassium; indeed, our forefathers made soap from fat and wood ash. I know more or less what is, and is not "recognised" by the fraternity as being "good". What escapes me entirely is what on earth the foundation of these rules are. To me, many of them appear to be entirely arbitrary, with no foundation in science. I do not know of a set of unambiguous rules to apply in order to deduce whether some new substance or procedure is to be classified as acceptable or not. For any rule which you might give me, I will guarantee to find you an outright exception, or at least a dubious case. As a scientist, (or rather, a has been scientist), I find the whole topic ununderstandable and unsupportable. Finally, please note that I momentarily donned the cloak of an organic gardener when I warned the OP that she would be using an artificially produced chemical mixture, if she put garden ash on her compost heap. Next tme you will tell me that a fire is a natural process. I offer you my answer in anticipation: Wold you put rubber ash on your compost heap? Bear in mind that rubber is produced organically. It is vulcanised by applying heat and ultimately burning it is not supposed to be an artificial process. Franz |
compost heap question
"Shannie" wrote in message ... During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as often as during the summer? Thanks guys Shannie Let you chickens use it as a dust bath. I know wood ash is meant to be good with the added bonus that it helps control the lice etc Jay |
compost heap question
Fercrissake ... the OP wasn't asking for debate on what is organic or
not ... personally I'd sprinkle *some* of the ash on my compost heap, but keep *most* of it in a separate pile, for judicious use in certain circumstances. Otherwise the "living" nature of The Heap would be gradually suffocated by the inert ash. In My Most Inexpert (but nontheless I believe Common Sense) Opinion. -- And Franz: you're being too picky. Everything under the Sun is "organic", unless it is a mineral. But we're not talking about what chemists talk about as organic or inorganic: we're talking about holistic gardening ... what would Mother Nature say about "this" or "that" substance if she found it in your garden? That's the question that drives us fumblers! Best wishes all John -- John Law Hexham Northumberland |
compost heap question
Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:173387
"John Law" wrote in message ... : Fercrissake ... the OP wasn't asking for debate on what is organic or : not ... personally I'd sprinkle *some* of the ash on my compost heap, : but keep *most* of it in a separate pile, for judicious use in certain : circumstances. Otherwise the "living" nature of The Heap would be : gradually suffocated by the inert ash. In My Most Inexpert (but : nontheless I believe Common Sense) Opinion. : : -- : And Franz: you're being too picky. Everything under the Sun is : "organic", unless it is a mineral. But we're not talking about what : chemists talk about as organic or inorganic: we're talking about : holistic gardening ... what would Mother Nature say about "this" or : "that" substance if she found it in your garden? That's the question : that drives us fumblers! : : Best wishes all : : John : -- : John Law : Hexham : Northumberland Well said John. We had all this in urg not very long ago but some posters are like a dog with a bone. Personally, I am as 'organic' or 'inorganic' as I want to be, both in my garden and in my every day life. I neither expect nor want people to impose their ideas on me and I don't criticise them for their beliefs. Much the same way as I feel about politics, religion, hunting and a thousand etcs. Live and let live is my motto, but obviously some here have not heard of this. K (the original one) |
compost heap question
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:01:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote: Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is kosher? Isn't peat decomposed and compressed material? -- MCC |
compost heap question
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:01:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote: I will never, never understand the mysteries of this practice. Who lays down the do's and don'ts? Is there some democratically elected committee, or do the rules come from on high? Or does every member of the movement just invent them as they go? The Soil Association is, I think, the arbiter of what constitutes a formal declaration of what organic gardening is. I should imagine you can join them and take part in their constitutional issues if you so desired. As far as I'm concerned, organic gardening is about using common sense - and the basic rule of thumb is to stick with naturally occurring materials. I'm sure you can find a better and more concise explanation out there - but this one suffices for me...I prefer gardening to politics. Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is kosher? I know the answer, of course, but it has nothing to do with "organic" or "not organic". I could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware processed coals like this contain additives in order to regulate their burn. I know for sure that there's a substantial difference in the quality of the ash from plain old coal. I wouldn't recommend coal ash on the garden anyway. I wrote to His Bobness, Duke of Flowerdew for some clarification on the use of coal ash - his reply said that the residual sulphur in the ash made it unsuitable for general garden use, though it's apparently fine for cold frame drainage and chicken dust-baths. Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"? It would be considered organic. If you chucked a plastic bottle into the converter you'd render the coke inorganic. Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
compost heap question
Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:173398
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:13:26 +0000, John Law wrote: Fercrissake ... the OP wasn't asking for debate on what is organic or not ... personally I'd sprinkle *some* of the ash on my compost heap, but keep *most* of it in a separate pile, for judicious use in certain circumstances. Otherwise the "living" nature of The Heap would be gradually suffocated by the inert ash. In My Most Inexpert (but nontheless I believe Common Sense) Opinion. -- And Franz: you're being too picky. Everything under the Sun is "organic", unless it is a mineral. But we're not talking about what chemists talk about as organic or inorganic: we're talking about holistic gardening ... what would Mother Nature say about "this" or "that" substance if she found it in your garden? That's the question that drives us fumblers! That's a good point too - organic gardening is about maintaining as natural a balance as possible, so while you could quite happily fill your plot with wood ash and maintain 'organic' integrity, you'd actually be missing the point. Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
compost heap question
"MCC" wrote in message ... On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:01:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is kosher? Isn't peat decomposed and compressed material? Yes. And if I understand things correctly, peat which is dragged underground by geological processes and subjected to very high pressures for a million years or thereabouts, becomes coal. Franz |
compost heap question
"John Law" wrote in message ... Fercrissake ... the OP wasn't asking for debate on what is organic or not ... personally I'd sprinkle *some* of the ash on my compost heap, but keep *most* of it in a separate pile, for judicious use in certain circumstances. Otherwise the "living" nature of The Heap would be gradually suffocated by the inert ash. In My Most Inexpert (but nontheless I believe Common Sense) Opinion. -- And Franz: you're being too picky. Everything under the Sun is "organic", unless it is a mineral. But we're not talking about what chemists talk about as organic or inorganic: we're talking about holistic gardening ... what would Mother Nature say about "this" or "that" substance if she found it in your garden? That's the question that drives us fumblers! John, I keep seeing wishy washy definitions of what is considered as being "organic" by organic gardeners. None of them stand up to any detailed scrutiny. Surely there are only beneficient and deleterious substances as far as gardening is concerned. Keep on using the beneficient substances and cease to use a substance as soon as it is proven to be sufficiently deleterious to warrant such action. What on earth more could one in fact ask for? Franz |
compost heap question
"Shannie" wrote in message ... During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as often as during the summer? I also only burn peat and the ash has always stayed as just ash in any small compost heat I've added it to. When I had chickens I used to put it in their field or house and they loved it as a dust bath and it was then incorporated into the very large and active heaps created when the straw/manure/ash mixture was removed and heaped. -- Chris Thomas West Cork Ireland |
compost heap question
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ... My first thoughts on this are that you would be overloading your compost heap with the chemicals of which the ash is composed. Moreover, a person who believes in organic growing would (or should) object strongly to using ash in a garden, since ash is entirely inorganic. Peat is totally comprised of plant matter how can it be considered inorganic or am I missing something here? -- Chris Thomas West Cork Ireland |
compost heap question
"K" wrote in message ... [snip] Personally, I am as 'organic' or 'inorganic' as I want to be, both in my garden and in my every day life. Hear Hear!! I neither expect nor want people to impose their ideas on me and I don't criticise them for their beliefs. I have been a scientist all my life and I regard it as important to criticise beliefs connected with scientific matters which have no scientific basis. I propose to go on doing so, much though you might dislike me for it. K (the original one) Perhaps you could be distinguished from that nerd "k" if you called yourself "KKK"? {:-)) Franz |
compost heap question
Shannie wrote:
During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as often as during the summer? Thanks guys Shannie This could be an intersting link for you shannie have a read http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2801541.stm You can make up your own mind |
compost heap question
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:53:52 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote: John, I keep seeing wishy washy definitions of what is considered as being "organic" by organic gardeners. None of them stand up to any detailed scrutiny. Talk to the Soil Assoc. people then - I'm sure they'll be only too pleased to debate the issue on the scientific level you aspire to....us lot are just 'umble gardeners. Surely there are only beneficient and deleterious substances as far as gardening is concerned. Keep on using the beneficient substances and cease to use a substance as soon as it is proven to be sufficiently deleterious to warrant such action. Might be too late then....DDT, Creosote etc.. What on earth more could one in fact ask for? No unpleasant surprises several years down the line, for one. I'm perfectly happy to stick with my 'wishy washy' definition of organic gardening - it renders the need for concern about the use of this and that academic. If, in future years, I see a report on the telly that says such-and-such a chemical is implicated in such-and-such an illness I can just shrug my shoulders and get on with my dinner. If I don't see such a report then everyone's happy. Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
compost heap question
In article , "Franz Heymann" writes: | | I will never, never understand the mysteries of this practice. Who lays | down the do's and don'ts? Is there some democratically elected committee, | or do the rules come from on high? Or does every member of the movement | just invent them as they go? Yes, or no, or perhaps. It depends on your viewpoint. | Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed | plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is | kosher? I know the answer, of course, but it has nothing to do with | "organic" or "not organic". If you take that viewpoint to extremes, most plastics are derived from plant material. | Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation | vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and | subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"? Don't you mean charcoal? Coke is derived from coal. From a practical point of view, there is little difference between wood ash, peat ash and charcoal ash. None will do any harm on a mixed compost heap, in moderation. Large quantities should be spread directly on the ground. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
compost heap question
"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in
message ... On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote: ...a person who believes in organic growing would (or should) object strongly to using ash in a garden, since ash is entirely inorganic. [I have a funny idea we've had this dispute before...] Franz, you're confusing (istm) the technical sense of the word "organic" as in "organic chemists make big stinks" with the broader sense meaning, roughly, integrated, treated as a whole, and so on. Organic gardening means afaict gardening without using synthetic fertilizers or pesti-/fungi-/insecticides. .....unless its a mixture of copper sulfate, slaked lime and salt in which case its organic. ....apparently. -- Tumbleweed Remove theobvious before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups) |
compost heap question
In message , Shannie
writes During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as often as during the summer? You do realise that burning peat for heat and power is actually far worse for the environment than using it as compost for gardening? Peat ash can concentrate elements that you don't really want to add to your garden. Change to renewable wood burning instead and you would have a nice alkaline potash fertiliser. Regards, -- Martin Brown |
compost heap question
"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
... On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:53:52 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: John, I keep seeing wishy washy definitions of what is considered as being "organic" by organic gardeners. None of them stand up to any detailed scrutiny. Talk to the Soil Assoc. people then - I'm sure they'll be only too pleased to debate the issue on the scientific level you aspire to....us lot are just 'umble gardeners. Surely there are only beneficient and deleterious substances as far as gardening is concerned. Keep on using the beneficient substances and cease to use a substance as soon as it is proven to be sufficiently deleterious to warrant such action. Might be too late then....DDT, Creosote etc.. What on earth more could one in fact ask for? No unpleasant surprises several years down the line, for one. You ask for the impossible. There are plenty of 'organic' thinsg that are harmful. Lettuce contains more carcinogenic chemicals than many artificial pesticides (banned or otherwise), for example. What are you going to do if thats one of your unpleasant surprises, that you've been happily muching on those for years whilst avoiding spraying them with pesticides that are less toxic than the lettuces! I'm perfectly happy to stick with my 'wishy washy' definition of organic gardening - it renders the need for concern about the use of this and that academic. If, in future years, I see a report on the telly that says such-and-such a chemical is implicated in such-and-such an illness I can just shrug my shoulders and get on with my dinner. Why? Do you believe that organic substances cant be harmful? Havent you seen the reports of organic crops having higher levels of toxic fungi on them? Seen the reports on sufactants used with glyphosphate being a problem? Thats detergents to you. Ever sprayed your aphids with a solution of washing up liquid, or poured the old washing up liquid on the garden? WHo knows what unpleasant surprises may be waiting for you down the line. -- Tumbleweed Remove theobvious before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups) -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
compost heap question
"K k or keith read my address" wrote in message
... Shannie wrote: During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as often as during the summer? Thanks guys Shannie This could be an intersting link for you shannie have a read http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2801541.stm You can make up your own mind IIRC forests have very high concentrations of dioxins (sometimes higher than near incinerators) caused by fungi breaking down decaying wood. But perhaps these are 'organic' dioxins and therefore safe? -- Tumbleweed Remove theobvious before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups) |
compost heap question
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:53:25 -0000, "Tumbleweed"
wrote: snip Why? Do you believe that organic substances cant be harmful? Havent you seen the reports of organic crops having higher levels of toxic fungi on them? Seen the reports on sufactants used with glyphosphate being a problem? Thats detergents to you. Ever sprayed your aphids with a solution of washing up liquid, or poured the old washing up liquid on the garden? WHo knows what unpleasant surprises may be waiting for you down the line. I have decided that "organic" is nearer to being a religion than a science, you either believe in it or you don't. Making scientific based criticism, only upsets the believers and causes unpleasantness. No end of arguing here is going to change the minds of the converted or the sceptics. -- Martin |
compost heap question
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:53:25 -0000, "Tumbleweed"
wrote: "Stephen Howard" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:53:52 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: What on earth more could one in fact ask for? No unpleasant surprises several years down the line, for one. You ask for the impossible. There are plenty of 'organic' thinsg that are harmful. Lettuce contains more carcinogenic chemicals than many artificial pesticides (banned or otherwise), for example. What are you going to do if thats one of your unpleasant surprises, that you've been happily muching on those for years whilst avoiding spraying them with pesticides that are less toxic than the lettuces! For sure, I'm well aware that nature has its own arsenal of nasties - but that's the whole point, it's nature. The biggest killer of all by far is life itself. Got anything I can put on that? And bunging yet more chemicals onto an already carcinogenic vegetable does what, exactly? I'm perfectly happy to stick with my 'wishy washy' definition of organic gardening - it renders the need for concern about the use of this and that academic. If, in future years, I see a report on the telly that says such-and-such a chemical is implicated in such-and-such an illness I can just shrug my shoulders and get on with my dinner. Why? Do you believe that organic substances cant be harmful? See above... Havent you seen the reports of organic crops having higher levels of toxic fungi on them? No, I haven't - unless you're referring to Ergot. And how concerned should I be? Exposure in moderate doses to toxic substances doesn't always mean a quick and painful death - quite the reverse in some cases. As the saying goes, you'll eat a peck of dust before you die. Seen the reports on sufactants used with glyphosphate being a problem? Yep, it's one reason I don't use them ( ground elder excepted this year, natch ) Thats detergents to you. Ever sprayed your aphids with a solution of washing up liquid, or poured the old washing up liquid on the garden? Nope. WHo knows what unpleasant surprises may be waiting for you down the line. Which is perhaps the best reason I've yet seen not to compound the problem by adding yet more chemicals or otherwise monkeying about with nature. Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
compost heap question
In article ,
(Martin Brown) wrote: You do realise that burning peat for heat and power is actually far worse for the environment He's in Ireland. Almost all their energy has to be imported except peat and they've got a lot of it. Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com |
compost heap question
"Stephen Howard" wrote in message ... On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:01:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: As far as I'm concerned, organic gardening is about using common sense - and the basic rule of thumb is to stick with naturally occurring materials. I try to use common sense in my approach to gardening. I use any substance which I understand to have one or more beneficial effects on the environment and I avoid substances which have been proven by scientific experiments to have deleterious effect on balance. I doubt if that makes me an organic gardener. I am certainlt not a bandwaggoner. I'm sure you can find a better and more concise explanation out there - but this one suffices for me...I prefer gardening to politics. I have been searching for long for precise definitions, but every time I come across only wishy-washy ones like that porposed by you higher up in this thread. Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is kosher? I know the answer, of course, but it has nothing to do with "organic" or "not organic". I could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware processed coals like this contain additives in order to regulate their burn. I know for sure that there's a substantial difference in the quality of the ash from plain old coal. I wouldn't recommend coal ash on the garden anyway. I would have thought that if anything was organic, coal was. Now do you understand my problem? I wrote to His Bobness, Duke of Flowerdew for some clarification on the use of coal ash - his reply said that the residual sulphur in the ash made it unsuitable for general garden use, though it's apparently fine for cold frame drainage and chicken dust-baths. Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"? It would be considered organic. If you chucked a plastic bottle into the converter you'd render the coke inorganic. In spite of the fact that the plastic yields only gases in its combustion product, and therfore leaves no residue in the solid ash? By the way, I used the wrong word when I said "coke". I obviously meant "charcoal". Franz |
compost heap question
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message ... In article , "Franz Heymann" writes: | | I will never, never understand the mysteries of this practice. Who lays | down the do's and don'ts? Is there some democratically elected committee, | or do the rules come from on high? Or does every member of the movement | just invent them as they go? Yes, or no, or perhaps. It depends on your viewpoint. | Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed | plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is | kosher? I know the answer, of course, but it has nothing to do with | "organic" or "not organic". If you take that viewpoint to extremes, most plastics are derived from plant material. | Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation | vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and | subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"? Don't you mean charcoal? Coke is derived from coal. Yes. My apologies for the misuse of a word. I have corrected myself three times altogether now. From a practical point of view, there is little difference between wood ash, peat ash and charcoal ash. None will do any harm on a mixed compost heap, in moderation. Large quantities should be spread directly on the ground. Understood. Now what about real coke ash? That comes from coal which comes from a mixture of plants. Franz |
compost heap question
"Tumbleweed" wrote in message . .. "Rodger Whitlock" wrote in message ... On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote: ...a person who believes in organic growing would (or should) object strongly to using ash in a garden, since ash is entirely inorganic. [I have a funny idea we've had this dispute before...] Franz, you're confusing (istm) the technical sense of the word "organic" as in "organic chemists make big stinks" with the broader sense meaning, roughly, integrated, treated as a whole, and so on. Organic gardening means afaict gardening without using synthetic fertilizers or pesti-/fungi-/insecticides. ....unless its a mixture of copper sulfate, slaked lime and salt in which case its organic. ...apparently. Yet, diesel oil, which is as organic as anything, is frowned upon as a weedkiller Franz |
compost heap question
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:42:43 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote: "Stephen Howard" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:01:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: I have been searching for long for precise definitions, but every time I come across only wishy-washy ones like that porposed by you higher up in this thread. I gave you the name of the formal association for organic gardening, if you choose not to delve further that's your business. I could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware processed coals like this contain additives in order to regulate their burn. I know for sure that there's a substantial difference in the quality of the ash from plain old coal. I wouldn't recommend coal ash on the garden anyway. I would have thought that if anything was organic, coal was. Now do you understand my problem? No, I don't. Not all coal is 'coal'. Your bog-standard lump of house coal, straight out of the ground, is coal. The stuff that's been formed into neat little ovals may well contain additives that enhance or retard its speed of burn. It would be considered organic. If you chucked a plastic bottle into the converter you'd render the coke inorganic. In spite of the fact that the plastic yields only gases in its combustion product, and therfore leaves no residue in the solid ash? In other words it doesn't matter what you chuck into the atmosphere. That kind of negates the principle a bit, don't you think? Regards, -- Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations www.shwoodwind.co.uk Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk |
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"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ... "Stephen Howard" wrote in message ... On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: +snip+ Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"? Franz I may be wrong but isn't wood that has been converted by heat called charcoal? I always thought coke was converted coal (or a banned substance or pop) Nic. |
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The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words: By the way, I used the wrong word when I said "coke". I obviously meant "charcoal". So much for your boasts to be a scientist concerned with correct definitions. Janet |
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"martin" wrote in message ... On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:53:25 -0000, "Tumbleweed" wrote: snip Why? Do you believe that organic substances cant be harmful? Havent you seen the reports of organic crops having higher levels of toxic fungi on them? Seen the reports on sufactants used with glyphosphate being a problem? Thats detergents to you. Ever sprayed your aphids with a solution of washing up liquid, or poured the old washing up liquid on the garden? WHo knows what unpleasant surprises may be waiting for you down the line. I have decided that "organic" is nearer to being a religion than a science, you either believe in it or you don't. Making scientific based criticism, only upsets the believers and causes unpleasantness. No end of arguing here is going to change the minds of the converted or the sceptics. That is precisely the situation as I see it. A bandwaggon. Franz |
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"Martin Brown" wrote in message ... In message , Shannie writes During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as often as during the summer? You do realise that burning peat for heat and power is actually far worse for the environment than using it as compost for gardening? Peat ash can concentrate elements that you don't really want to add to your garden. Change to renewable wood burning instead and you would have a nice alkaline potash fertiliser. Which is in every respect identical to the potash with which the heathens like me feed their plants. Franz |
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"Stephen Howard" wrote in message ... On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:53:25 -0000, "Tumbleweed" wrote: "Stephen Howard" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:53:52 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: What on earth more could one in fact ask for? No unpleasant surprises several years down the line, for one. You ask for the impossible. There are plenty of 'organic' thinsg that are harmful. Lettuce contains more carcinogenic chemicals than many artificial pesticides (banned or otherwise), for example. What are you going to do if thats one of your unpleasant surprises, that you've been happily muching on those for years whilst avoiding spraying them with pesticides that are less toxic than the lettuces! For sure, I'm well aware that nature has its own arsenal of nasties - but that's the whole point, it's nature. The biggest killer of all by far is life itself. Got anything I can put on that? And bunging yet more chemicals onto an already carcinogenic vegetable does what, exactly? It depends on the chemical. But as a rough and ready rule, not much as far as eating it is concerned. As Tumbleweed pointed out, the pesticide typically adds to the lettuce's "badness" only slightly in comparison with its inherent "badness", both of which are in any case pretty well negligible in practice. [snip] Which is perhaps the best reason I've yet seen not to compound the problem by adding yet more chemicals or otherwise monkeying about with nature. But you are adding more chemicals. You (the metaphorical "you") add those which the afficionados have pronounced to be on the side of the angels. And you are in fact continuously monkeying about with nature. Otherwise you would not have had such a plethora of varieties of runner beans or tomatoes to choose from. Franz |
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"Stephen Howard" wrote in message ... On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:53:52 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: John, I keep seeing wishy washy definitions of what is considered as being "organic" by organic gardeners. None of them stand up to any detailed scrutiny. Talk to the Soil Assoc. people then - I'm sure they'll be only too pleased to debate the issue on the scientific level you aspire to....us lot are just 'umble gardeners. I have read much of the literature produced by the Soil Association. I am sure that its heart is essentially in the right place, but I have nevertheless not yet seen a definition of what constitiutes "organic gardening", except perhaps for one along the lines "organic gardening is gardening conducted according to the rules laid down by the Soil Association". If that is the case, they have hijacked the meaning of the word "organic". Surely there are only beneficient and deleterious substances as far as gardening is concerned. Keep on using the beneficient substances and cease to use a substance as soon as it is proven to be sufficiently deleterious to warrant such action. Might be too late then....DDT, Creosote etc.. It is never too late. What on earth more could one in fact ask for? No unpleasant surprises several years down the line, for one. So we must sit on our hands because even pyrethrum, which was once an organically acceptable chemical, is no longer amongst the good things of life? And Bordeaux Mixture is a non-poisonous substance? I'm perfectly happy to stick with my 'wishy washy' definition of organic gardening - it renders the need for concern about the use of this and that academic. If, in future years, I see a report on the telly that says such-and-such a chemical is implicated in such-and-such an illness I can just shrug my shoulders and get on with my dinner. If I don't see such a report then everyone's happy. Franz |
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"Stephen Howard" wrote in message ... On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:42:43 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: "Stephen Howard" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:01:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: I have been searching for long for precise definitions, but every time I come across only wishy-washy ones like that porposed by you higher up in this thread. I gave you the name of the formal association for organic gardening, if you choose not to delve further that's your business. I had hoped it might not be necessary to say it yet again, but here goes: I possess a considerable amount of the literature of the Soil Association. I have read it all avidly. I have studied their website. It is all very interesting to read, but nowhere did I find a definition of what the actual formal definition of "organic gardening" is, except perhaps "To follow the rules laid out by the Soil Association". That is *not* a scientific definition. I could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware processed coals like this contain additives in order to regulate their burn. I know for sure that there's a substantial difference in the quality of the ash from plain old coal. I wouldn't recommend coal ash on the garden anyway. I would have thought that if anything was organic, coal was. Now do you understand my problem? No, I don't. Not all coal is 'coal'. Your bog-standard lump of house coal, straight out of the ground, is coal. The stuff that's been formed into neat little ovals may well contain additives that enhance or retard its speed of burn. That might or might not be true. I suspect that it contains only a cement to allow the dust to hang together. But if you are unhappy, please feel free to replace the word "Phurnacite" by the word coal and reread the whole thread. It would be considered organic. If you chucked a plastic bottle into the converter you'd render the coke inorganic. In spite of the fact that the plastic yields only gases in its combustion product, and therfore leaves no residue in the solid ash? In other words it doesn't matter what you chuck into the atmosphere. That kind of negates the principle a bit, don't you think? Please don't put words into my mouth. It is a technique which is guaranteed to fail. It was the *coke* which you said wouild magically be rendered "inorganic". Of course the *atmosphere* will be given a burden of possibly harmful gases. Franz |
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"Nic O'Demus" wrote in message ... "Franz Heymann" wrote in message ... "Stephen Howard" wrote in message ... On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: +snip+ Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"? Franz I may be wrong but isn't wood that has been converted by heat called charcoal? Your criticism comes after I had already corrected myself on that point more than once. I always thought coke was converted coal (or a banned substance or pop) Yes. Franz |
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"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message ... The message from "Franz Heymann" contains these words: By the way, I used the wrong word when I said "coke". I obviously meant "charcoal". So much for your boasts to be a scientist concerned with correct definitions. English is my second language, and although I am totally fluent in it, I do very occasionally use an incorrect word. I did in this instance, and I corrected myself immediately after I realised it. Yes. I am intensely concerned with learning about the correct definitions of things and processes, your sarcarm notwithstanding. Franz Franz |
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