found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:37:15 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:47:21 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:14:03 +0100, martin
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:10:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades"
wrote
in
message
.. .


Warfarin-based poisons are not particularly unpleasant. The
victims
just
get weaker and weaker and lapse into a coma.

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the
passage
of
food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to
allow
nutrients
to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels) and
the
animal
loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no
pain
involved.

How do you know?

because it's used in humans as an anti clotting agent.

The village idiot mentality is astounding!

That sounds like the voice of experience.

Using a substance medicinally is not the same as using it to
kill.
If
you
fed enough Warfarin to a human to kill him would it cause pain?

Yes. It is a slow and agonizing death, rat or man would bleed to
death
from the inside. The fact that very minute doses of poison are
used
very successfully in medicine has nothing to do with it's use to
kill
something.

Somebody said, "There is no pain involved." and I asked how that
waas
known.
It seems now that there IS pain involved.

Precisely.

Now who's the idiot?

The one who thinks there is no pain involved because grandad uses it
to ease a heart condition!

It does not "ease a heart condition" and I have not ever heard it being
used
for that. *I*, not my granddad, have been using warfarin daily for
more
than a dozen years. *I* did once, by mistake, overuse it suffiently to
be
able to state categorically that there is no physical pain involved
before a
coma sets in.

I just don't believe the dummies coming out of the woodwork on this.
Why in the world do you think your medicine dosage of warfarin has any
connection at all with the dosage that kills rodents in the most
horrendous manner imaginable?
You alone have taken village idiots to
new heights of ignorance! sheesh......

Repeating nonsense ad inf does not convert it into a truth.

Quite. So you might as well stop repeating yourself :-)

I have provided you with the evidence that I experience no physical pain
when I had taken enough Warfarin to take me to the verge of a coma.

You have not provided evidence.

You've given anecdotal accounts ad nauseam of what you say is your
experience. That's neither evidence nor proof.

Over and out.

Had I
had any more, the most likely outcome would have been that I would have
become comatose quite soon, and would have died of brain haemorrage quite
soon after that. At what time would I have experienced this horrendously
painful death of which you keep talking?

Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"

I didn't say that, I merely asked how it was known that it would be a
painsless death. I might easily have asked how it was known that it would be
an horrendous death.

Mary

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:15:08 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"

PLONK him Franz. The guy is a troll.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:37:15 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:47:21 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:14:03 +0100, martin
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:10:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades"
wrote
in
message
.. .


Warfarin-based poisons are not particularly unpleasant. The
victims
just
get weaker and weaker and lapse into a coma.

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the
passage
of
food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to
allow
nutrients
to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels) and
the
animal
loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no
pain
involved.

How do you know?

because it's used in humans as an anti clotting agent.

The village idiot mentality is astounding!

That sounds like the voice of experience.

Using a substance medicinally is not the same as using it to
kill.
If
you
fed enough Warfarin to a human to kill him would it cause pain?

Yes. It is a slow and agonizing death, rat or man would bleed to
death
from the inside. The fact that very minute doses of poison are
used
very successfully in medicine has nothing to do with it's use to
kill
something.

Somebody said, "There is no pain involved." and I asked how that
waas
known.
It seems now that there IS pain involved.

Precisely.

Now who's the idiot?

The one who thinks there is no pain involved because grandad uses it
to ease a heart condition!

It does not "ease a heart condition" and I have not ever heard it being
used
for that. *I*, not my granddad, have been using warfarin daily for
more
than a dozen years. *I* did once, by mistake, overuse it suffiently to
be
able to state categorically that there is no physical pain involved
before a
coma sets in.

I just don't believe the dummies coming out of the woodwork on this.
Why in the world do you think your medicine dosage of warfarin has any
connection at all with the dosage that kills rodents in the most
horrendous manner imaginable?
You alone have taken village idiots to
new heights of ignorance! sheesh......

Repeating nonsense ad inf does not convert it into a truth.

Quite. So you might as well stop repeating yourself :-)

I have provided you with the evidence that I experience no physical pain
when I had taken enough Warfarin to take me to the verge of a coma.

You have not provided evidence.

You've given anecdotal accounts ad nauseam of what you say is your
experience. That's neither evidence nor proof.

Over and out.

Had I
had any more, the most likely outcome would have been that I would have
become comatose quite soon, and would have died of brain haemorrage quite
soon after that. At what time would I have experienced this horrendously
painful death of which you keep talking?

Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"

I didn't say that, I merely asked how it was known that it would be a
painsless death. I might easily have asked how it was known that it would be
an horrendous death.

Mary

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:10:28 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

(Always set mousetraps facing the wall too.)

Why trap them? It does not cost much to feed them well and they do one
hell
of a lot less damage than cats.

I've had a box of rare books trashed by the little *******s......

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

Try keeping your house a little cleaner then. Most of us would spot
mouse shit long before the messies started chewing our books.

I must admit that I thought the same ...

Mary

found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:18:50 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

(Always set mousetraps facing the wall too.)

Why trap them? It does not cost much to feed them well and they do one
hell
of a lot less damage than cats.

I've had a box of rare books trashed by the little *******s......

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

You're still alive ...

.... not all diseases are fatal.

Dog crap carries a parasite that leads to blindness, but does not
kill.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:10:28 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

(Always set mousetraps facing the wall too.)

Why trap them? It does not cost much to feed them well and they do one
hell
of a lot less damage than cats.

I've had a box of rare books trashed by the little *******s......

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

Try keeping your house a little cleaner then. Most of us would spot
mouse shit long before the messies started chewing our books.

I must admit that I thought the same ...

Mary

found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:15:08 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"

PLONK him Franz. The guy is a troll.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:18:50 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

(Always set mousetraps facing the wall too.)

Why trap them? It does not cost much to feed them well and they do one
hell
of a lot less damage than cats.

I've had a box of rare books trashed by the little *******s......

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

You're still alive ...

.... not all diseases are fatal.

Dog crap carries a parasite that leads to blindness, but does not
kill.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:25:01 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

Repeating nonsense ad inf does not convert it into a truth.

Quite. So you might as well stop repeating yourself :-)

I have provided you with the evidence that I experience no physical pain
when I had taken enough Warfarin to take me to the verge of a coma.

You have not provided evidence.

Of course he has. Franz is the evidence.


You've given anecdotal accounts ad nauseam of what you say is your
experience. That's neither evidence nor proof.

Franz gave first hand evidence. That is not anecdotal, but fact.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:25:01 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

Repeating nonsense ad inf does not convert it into a truth.

Quite. So you might as well stop repeating yourself :-)

I have provided you with the evidence that I experience no physical pain
when I had taken enough Warfarin to take me to the verge of a coma.

You have not provided evidence.

Of course he has. Franz is the evidence.


You've given anecdotal accounts ad nauseam of what you say is your
experience. That's neither evidence nor proof.

Franz gave first hand evidence. That is not anecdotal, but fact.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

found a mouse in my loft!
 

In article , Jack Hammer
wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:17:56 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

No one can really be that stupid.

Oh I don't know Pete, you carelessly x-posted one of these where I'd notice
it.

This 'Jack Hammer' is usually known as Pete the Troll. He cares desperately
that people argue with him, whereupon he descends to vulgar abuse and what
he considers to be dirty tricks. You've seen him crosspost here before
under many other IDs.

Don't bother with him folks, he ain't worth it.

Cheerio,

--

found a mouse in my loft!
 

In article , Jack Hammer
wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:17:56 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

No one can really be that stupid.

Oh I don't know Pete, you carelessly x-posted one of these where I'd notice
it.

This 'Jack Hammer' is usually known as Pete the Troll. He cares desperately
that people argue with him, whereupon he descends to vulgar abuse and what
he considers to be dirty tricks. You've seen him crosspost here before
under many other IDs.

Don't bother with him folks, he ain't worth it.

Cheerio,

--

found a mouse in my loft!
 

In article , Jack Hammer
wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:17:56 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

No one can really be that stupid.

Oh I don't know Pete, you carelessly x-posted one of these where I'd notice
it.

This 'Jack Hammer' is usually known as Pete the Troll. He cares desperately
that people argue with him, whereupon he descends to vulgar abuse and what
he considers to be dirty tricks. You've seen him crosspost here before
under many other IDs.

Don't bother with him folks, he ain't worth it.

Cheerio,

--

found a mouse in my loft!
 

In article , Jack Hammer
wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:17:56 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

No one can really be that stupid.

Oh I don't know Pete, you carelessly x-posted one of these where I'd notice
it.

This 'Jack Hammer' is usually known as Pete the Troll. He cares desperately
that people argue with him, whereupon he descends to vulgar abuse and what
he considers to be dirty tricks. You've seen him crosspost here before
under many other IDs.

Don't bother with him folks, he ain't worth it.

Cheerio,

--

found a mouse in my loft!
 

The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

You're still alive ...

Quite. They aren't.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

found a mouse in my loft!
 

The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

You're still alive ...

Quite. They aren't.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

found a mouse in my loft!
 

The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

You're still alive ...

Quite. They aren't.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

found a mouse in my loft!
 

The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

You're still alive ...

Quite. They aren't.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

(Always set mousetraps facing the wall too.)

Why trap them? It does not cost much to feed them well and they do one
hell
of a lot less damage than cats.

I've had a box of rare books trashed by the little *******s......

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

Do they act as vectors for more or less human diseases than cats do?

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the passage of
food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to allow
nutrients
to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels) and the animal
loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no pain
involved.

How do you know?

Plenty of people have died, or been poisoned as a result of ingesting
Warfarin, and they have been able to describe the effects.

Indeed, it is used in medicine in small doses to thin the blood in
certain conditions. My mother took it after having a stroke.

That soundsalmost like a case of closing the stable door after the horse
has bolted. Warfarin cannot disperse an existing clot. It can only prevent
a clot from forming in the first instance.

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as
I
have
now stated at least three times.

But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.

A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:15:08 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"

PLONK him Franz. The guy is a troll.

OK. But it is a bit late. I have already placed some more responses in the
post.

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

(Always set mousetraps facing the wall too.)

Why trap them? It does not cost much to feed them well and they do one
hell
of a lot less damage than cats.

I've had a box of rare books trashed by the little *******s......

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

Do they act as vectors for more or less human diseases than cats do?

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the passage of
food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to allow
nutrients
to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels) and the animal
loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no pain
involved.

How do you know?

Plenty of people have died, or been poisoned as a result of ingesting
Warfarin, and they have been able to describe the effects.

Indeed, it is used in medicine in small doses to thin the blood in
certain conditions. My mother took it after having a stroke.

That soundsalmost like a case of closing the stable door after the horse
has bolted. Warfarin cannot disperse an existing clot. It can only prevent
a clot from forming in the first instance.

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:37:15 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:47:21 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:14:03 +0100, martin
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:10:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades"
wrote
in
message
.. .


Warfarin-based poisons are not particularly unpleasant.
The
victims
just
get weaker and weaker and lapse into a coma.

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the
passage
of
food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to
allow
nutrients
to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels)
and
the
animal
loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no
pain
involved.

How do you know?

because it's used in humans as an anti clotting agent.

The village idiot mentality is astounding!

That sounds like the voice of experience.

Using a substance medicinally is not the same as using it to
kill.
If
you
fed enough Warfarin to a human to kill him would it cause pain?

Yes. It is a slow and agonizing death, rat or man would bleed to
death
from the inside. The fact that very minute doses of poison are
used
very successfully in medicine has nothing to do with it's use to
kill
something.

Somebody said, "There is no pain involved." and I asked how that
waas
known.
It seems now that there IS pain involved.

Precisely.

Now who's the idiot?

The one who thinks there is no pain involved because grandad uses
it
to ease a heart condition!

It does not "ease a heart condition" and I have not ever heard it
being
used
for that. *I*, not my granddad, have been using warfarin daily for
more
than a dozen years. *I* did once, by mistake, overuse it suffiently
to
be
able to state categorically that there is no physical pain involved
before a
coma sets in.

I just don't believe the dummies coming out of the woodwork on this.
Why in the world do you think your medicine dosage of warfarin has any
connection at all with the dosage that kills rodents in the most
horrendous manner imaginable?
You alone have taken village idiots to
new heights of ignorance! sheesh......

Repeating nonsense ad inf does not convert it into a truth.

Quite. So you might as well stop repeating yourself :-)

I have provided you with the evidence that I experience no physical pain
when I had taken enough Warfarin to take me to the verge of a coma.

You have not provided evidence.

You've given anecdotal accounts ad nauseam of what you say is your
experience. That's neither evidence nor proof.

Your understanding of the phrase "anecdotal evidence" needs polishing.
*I* am the very firm evidence of what *I* have observed to happen to
*myself*.
*I* am still here. *I* did not experience any physical pain, only mental
anguish.


Over and out.

Had I
had any more, the most likely outcome would have been that I would have
become comatose quite soon, and would have died of brain haemorrage
quite
soon after that. At what time would I have experienced this
horrendously
painful death of which you keep talking?

Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"

I didn't say that, I merely asked how it was known that it would be a
painsless death. I might easily have asked how it was known that it would
be
an horrendous death.

I did not say *you* did. Please count the attribution marks.

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as
I
have
now stated at least three times.

But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.

A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:15:08 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"

PLONK him Franz. The guy is a troll.

OK. But it is a bit late. I have already placed some more responses in the
post.

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:37:15 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:47:21 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:14:03 +0100, martin
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:10:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades"
wrote
in
message
.. .


Warfarin-based poisons are not particularly unpleasant.
The
victims
just
get weaker and weaker and lapse into a coma.

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the
passage
of
food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to
allow
nutrients
to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels)
and
the
animal
loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no
pain
involved.

How do you know?

because it's used in humans as an anti clotting agent.

The village idiot mentality is astounding!

That sounds like the voice of experience.

Using a substance medicinally is not the same as using it to
kill.
If
you
fed enough Warfarin to a human to kill him would it cause pain?

Yes. It is a slow and agonizing death, rat or man would bleed to
death
from the inside. The fact that very minute doses of poison are
used
very successfully in medicine has nothing to do with it's use to
kill
something.

Somebody said, "There is no pain involved." and I asked how that
waas
known.
It seems now that there IS pain involved.

Precisely.

Now who's the idiot?

The one who thinks there is no pain involved because grandad uses
it
to ease a heart condition!

It does not "ease a heart condition" and I have not ever heard it
being
used
for that. *I*, not my granddad, have been using warfarin daily for
more
than a dozen years. *I* did once, by mistake, overuse it suffiently
to
be
able to state categorically that there is no physical pain involved
before a
coma sets in.

I just don't believe the dummies coming out of the woodwork on this.
Why in the world do you think your medicine dosage of warfarin has any
connection at all with the dosage that kills rodents in the most
horrendous manner imaginable?
You alone have taken village idiots to
new heights of ignorance! sheesh......

Repeating nonsense ad inf does not convert it into a truth.

Quite. So you might as well stop repeating yourself :-)

I have provided you with the evidence that I experience no physical pain
when I had taken enough Warfarin to take me to the verge of a coma.

You have not provided evidence.

You've given anecdotal accounts ad nauseam of what you say is your
experience. That's neither evidence nor proof.

Your understanding of the phrase "anecdotal evidence" needs polishing.
*I* am the very firm evidence of what *I* have observed to happen to
*myself*.
*I* am still here. *I* did not experience any physical pain, only mental
anguish.


Over and out.

Had I
had any more, the most likely outcome would have been that I would have
become comatose quite soon, and would have died of brain haemorrage
quite
soon after that. At what time would I have experienced this
horrendously
painful death of which you keep talking?

Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"

I didn't say that, I merely asked how it was known that it would be a
painsless death. I might easily have asked how it was known that it would
be
an horrendous death.

I did not say *you* did. Please count the attribution marks.

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

Indeed, it is used in medicine in small doses to thin the blood in
certain conditions. My mother took it after having a stroke.

That soundsalmost like a case of closing the stable door after the horse
has bolted. Warfarin cannot disperse an existing clot. It can only prevent
a clot from forming in the first instance.

To prevent a recurrence, mayhap?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

found a mouse in my loft!
 

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as
I
have
now stated at least three times.

But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.

A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.

No. I presumed you sought medical help, otherwise you might/would have died.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

found a mouse in my loft!
 

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

Indeed, it is used in medicine in small doses to thin the blood in
certain conditions. My mother took it after having a stroke.

That soundsalmost like a case of closing the stable door after the horse
has bolted. Warfarin cannot disperse an existing clot. It can only prevent
a clot from forming in the first instance.

To prevent a recurrence, mayhap?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

found a mouse in my loft!
 

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as
I
have
now stated at least three times.

But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.

A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.

No. I presumed you sought medical help, otherwise you might/would have died.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:23:43 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as
I
have
now stated at least three times.

But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.

A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.

Duh! and I thought it was Easter already :-)
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

found a mouse in my loft!
 

Subject: found a mouse in my loft!
From: "Franz Heymann"
Date: 23/02/2004 23:23 GMT Standard Time
Message-id:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as
I
have
now stated at least three times.

But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.

A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.

Hmm, do you recall a doctor standing over you screaming "it's alive, ALIVE"?
Did one of the male nurses have a lithp? Marthter?
--
Rhiannon
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/
"The trick is to commit crimes so confusing that police feel too stupid to even
write a crime report about them."
Aubrey on remaining at liberty
www.somethingpositive.net

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved,
as
I
have
now stated at least three times.

But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.

A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.

No. I presumed you sought medical help, otherwise you might/would have
died.

I did not. I just stopped taking warfarin completely and waited. The crisis
was over in about 24 hours.
I say, this story is getting to be more than boring.
Let's revert to talking about gardening.

Franz

found a mouse in my loft!
 

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

Indeed, it is used in medicine in small doses to thin the blood in
certain conditions. My mother took it after having a stroke.

That soundsalmost like a case of closing the stable door after the
horse
has bolted. Warfarin cannot disperse an existing clot. It can only
prevent
a clot from forming in the first instance.

To prevent a recurrence, mayhap?

Granted.

Franz

o/t : found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:58:12 GMT, Janet Baraclough ..
wrote:

The message
from Nick contains these words:

My loft is fairly spacious and boarded out but surrounded with loads of
bin liners with clothes

Ideal breeding habitat for mice.

are mice known to inhabit loft spaces

Yep...we heard ours racing about the loft in hobnail boots at night.
Then honey started dripping through the bedroom ceiling, and it turned
out the mice had found a bees nest under the loft insulation.

or could this just be one mouse
that has become trapped in the loft for some reason?

IME, there is no such thing as "just one" mouse :-). Iirc, females can
produce a litter every 6 weeks all year round.

.... with a little help from their friends, in hobnail boots.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

o/t : found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:58:12 GMT, Janet Baraclough ..
wrote:

The message
from Nick contains these words:

My loft is fairly spacious and boarded out but surrounded with loads of
bin liners with clothes

Ideal breeding habitat for mice.

are mice known to inhabit loft spaces

Yep...we heard ours racing about the loft in hobnail boots at night.
Then honey started dripping through the bedroom ceiling, and it turned
out the mice had found a bees nest under the loft insulation.

or could this just be one mouse
that has become trapped in the loft for some reason?

IME, there is no such thing as "just one" mouse :-). Iirc, females can
produce a litter every 6 weeks all year round.

.... with a little help from their friends, in hobnail boots.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

o/t : found a mouse in my loft!
 

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:58:12 GMT, Janet Baraclough ..
wrote:

The message
from Nick contains these words:

My loft is fairly spacious and boarded out but surrounded with loads of
bin liners with clothes

Ideal breeding habitat for mice.

are mice known to inhabit loft spaces

Yep...we heard ours racing about the loft in hobnail boots at night.
Then honey started dripping through the bedroom ceiling, and it turned
out the mice had found a bees nest under the loft insulation.

or could this just be one mouse
that has become trapped in the loft for some reason?

IME, there is no such thing as "just one" mouse :-). Iirc, females can
produce a litter every 6 weeks all year round.

.... with a little help from their friends, in hobnail boots.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

found a mouse in my loft!
 

martin wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:42:44 +0000, Jack Hammer
wrote:


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:37:15 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:47:21 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
om...

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:14:03 +0100, martin wrote:


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:10:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in

message

. uk...


Warfarin-based poisons are not particularly unpleasant. The victims

just

get weaker and weaker and lapse into a coma.

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the passage

of

food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to allow

nutrients

to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels) and the

animal

loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no pain

involved.

How do you know?

because it's used in humans as an anti clotting agent.

The village idiot mentality is astounding!

That sounds like the voice of experience.

Using a substance medicinally is not the same as using it to kill. If you
fed enough Warfarin to a human to kill him would it cause pain?

Yes. It is a slow and agonizing death, rat or man would bleed to death
from the inside. The fact that very minute doses of poison are used
very successfully in medicine has nothing to do with it's use to kill
something.

Somebody said, "There is no pain involved." and I asked how that waas known.
It seems now that there IS pain involved.

Precisely.


Now who's the idiot?

The one who thinks there is no pain involved because grandad uses it
to ease a heart condition!



Both my granddads have been dead for decades, I said it caused no pain
because when I googled for the symptoms of warfarin poisoning there is
no mention of pain. Why let facts ruin a good argument, when it's so
much easier to call somebody an idiot.



Taking your advice led me to this, from the Inchem Chemical Safety pages:

4.4.1 Early symptoms of poisoning - Acute poisoning from a single dose
of warfarin is unlikely. On repeated exposure symptoms may
occur from the sixth or seventh day and include back and
abdominal pain followed by vomiting, nose and gum bleeding,
massive bruising and haematoma fomation.

I guess the fact that one source did not mention pain doesn't mean there
is none. But who knows, perhaps this info is wrong too!