I'm planning on building a pond next spring about 4ft * 4ft and 2-3ft
deep. I wont be having any fish just a fountain in the middle. I'll
have 2 rows of paving slaps round the pond as it will be part of a
patio/terrace.

My questions are

1) will I need a filter if I dont have fish

2) How do I get the pump\lights cable into the pond. Is it usual to
run it under the paving in which case what about maintence. I plan on
having a junction box at the edge of the paving 'hidden' by plants.

"NWalch" wrote in message
om...
I'm planning on building a pond next spring about 4ft * 4ft and 2-3ft
deep. I wont be having any fish just a fountain in the middle. I'll
have 2 rows of paving slaps round the pond as it will be part of a
patio/terrace.

My questions are

1) will I need a filter if I dont have fish

No. However it will likely get algae unless you have UV system, or use
algicide from time to time. Are you planning to have plants in it (can be
affected by algicide whatever the makers claim, IME)
Is there any particular reason why it will be so deep? Seems unnecessary if
you just want a fountain to look at.


2) How do I get the pump\lights cable into the pond. Is it usual to
run it under the paving in which case what about maintence. I plan on
having a junction box at the edge of the paving 'hidden' by plants.

I prefer low voltage devices (uses a transformer inside the house) rather
than 240v. In either case, put the cable inside hose pipe buried at least 9
inches deep (instructions will say how deep) if its 240V or for low voltage,
a few inches is fine. I think you can get armoured hose pipe or special
pipes for 240v cable, but you will need to check, anyway for your needs low
voltage will be fine, why increase the risk of electrocution for the sake of
£20 extra for low voltage?

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

My questions are

1) will I need a filter if I dont have fish

No. However it will likely get algae unless you have UV system, or use
algicide from time to time. Are you planning to have plants in it (can be
affected by algicide whatever the makers claim, IME)
Is there any particular reason why it will be so deep? Seems unnecessary if
you just want a fountain to look at.


So just use a UV system but not a full filter (I've seen filters with
UV cleaners in them but I guess that OTT if no fish)

I think I might have a few plants and I prefer to avoid chemicals if
possible.

Not really sure why I chose that deep, probably in case I want fish in
future (no plans but you never know)


2) How do I get the pump\lights cable into the pond. Is it usual to
run it under the paving in which case what about maintence. I plan on
having a junction box at the edge of the paving 'hidden' by plants.

I prefer low voltage devices (uses a transformer inside the house) rather
than 240v. In either case, put the cable inside hose pipe buried at least 9
inches deep (instructions will say how deep) if its 240V or for low voltage,
a few inches is fine. I think you can get armoured hose pipe or special
pipes for 240v cable, but you will need to check, anyway for your needs low
voltage will be fine, why increase the risk of electrocution for the sake of
£20 extra for low voltage?

Good idea although I'm not sure how/where I'm going to connect the
power supply once I get it into the house so a transformer would be an
added problem especially if its not very small and buzzes. I'm sure
I've seen one with an external transformer. If not I'd certainly go
for armoured cable for 24v.

"NWalch" wrote in message
om...
My questions are

1) will I need a filter if I dont have fish

No. However it will likely get algae unless you have UV system, or use
algicide from time to time. Are you planning to have plants in it (can be
affected by algicide whatever the makers claim, IME)
Is there any particular reason why it will be so deep? Seems unnecessary
if
you just want a fountain to look at.


So just use a UV system but not a full filter (I've seen filters with
UV cleaners in them but I guess that OTT if no fish)

I think I might have a few plants and I prefer to avoid chemicals if
possible.

Not really sure why I chose that deep, probably in case I want fish in
future (no plans but you never know)


2) How do I get the pump\lights cable into the pond. Is it usual to
run it under the paving in which case what about maintence. I plan on
having a junction box at the edge of the paving 'hidden' by plants.

I prefer low voltage devices (uses a transformer inside the house) rather
than 240v. In either case, put the cable inside hose pipe buried at least
9
inches deep (instructions will say how deep) if its 240V or for low
voltage,
a few inches is fine. I think you can get armoured hose pipe or special
pipes for 240v cable, but you will need to check, anyway for your needs
low
voltage will be fine, why increase the risk of electrocution for the sake
of
£20 extra for low voltage?

Good idea although I'm not sure how/where I'm going to connect the
power supply once I get it into the house so a transformer would be an
added problem especially if its not very small and buzzes. I'm sure
I've seen one with an external transformer. If not I'd certainly go
for armoured cable for 24v.

240V I presume you mean :-)
The transformer I have doesnt buzz *at all*. It clips onto the wall on a
screw head and is inside (Its ina conservatory so the fact there is a small
box on the wall doesnt matter froma decorating POV) You could always
construct a small waterproof box on an outside wall and put it there I
suppose.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.

Just a few further thoughts.
We've always been told to install overflows beneath the edging slabs or
stones. This is to kep the level constant and keep the water from coming up
over the edging when the pond fills with rain.
This is not for aesthetic reasons, but because of the power of melting ice.
The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice formed cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it melts, which is
why it can burst pipes)
If the water level rises to the capping stones then melting ice is trapped
and can loosen the mortar and make your pond potentially unsafe.
We have five ponds, all but two fitted with overflows. (The other two have
waterfalls and can't over-fill)

In article , Sue da Nimm
.? writes
Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.

Just a few further thoughts.
We've always been told to install overflows beneath the edging slabs or
stones. This is to kep the level constant and keep the water from coming up
over the edging when the pond fills with rain.
This is not for aesthetic reasons, but because of the power of melting ice.
The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice formed cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it melts, which is
why it can burst pipes)

Other way round - water expands when it freezes (which is why ice floats
- the same amount of water occupies a larger space when frozen, and so
is less dense), which is why it burst pipes.

But you don't usually realise the pipe has burst until the ice has
melted.


--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"Sue da Nimm" . wrote in message
...
Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you
leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit
back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.

Just a few further thoughts.
We've always been told to install overflows beneath the edging slabs
or
stones. This is to kep the level constant and keep the water from
coming up
over the edging when the pond fills with rain.
This is not for aesthetic reasons, but because of the power of
melting ice.
The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice formed
cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it melts,

If that were true, ice would not float. The maximum density of the
ice-water system occurs at about 4 deg C at normal pressures.

which is
why it can burst pipes)

It bursts the pipe when it freeezes, but while it is solid, it seals
the crack. When it melts, the crack is able to leak.

[snip]

Franz

"Sue da Nimm" . wrote in message ...
Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.

Just a few further thoughts.
We've always been told to install overflows beneath the edging slabs or
stones. This is to kep the level constant and keep the water from coming up
over the edging when the pond fills with rain.
This is not for aesthetic reasons, but because of the power of melting ice.
The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice formed cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it melts, which is
why it can burst pipes)
If the water level rises to the capping stones then melting ice is trapped
and can loosen the mortar and make your pond potentially unsafe.
We have five ponds, all but two fitted with overflows. (The other two have
waterfalls and can't over-fill)
Actually Sue ice expands as it freezes which is why it floats on water
(it's less dense)The drastic consequences e.g. burst pipes are only
seen when it melts again. However your advice about overflows and
sloping sides is very sound.
The depth of two feet will also prevent any hibernating wild life from
freezing and keep the pond cooler in the summer.
Tony Bull
www.caterpillarfountain.co.uk

"Tony Bull" wrote in message
om...

[snip]

Actually Sue ice expands as it freezes which is why it floats on
water
(it's less dense)The drastic consequences e.g. burst pipes are only
seen when it melts again. However your advice about overflows and
sloping sides is very sound.

Hands up everyone who has had a pond crack due to the water freezing.

Franz

Franz Heymann wrote:
"Tony Bull" wrote in message
om...

[snip]

Actually Sue ice expands as it freezes which is why it floats on
water (it's less dense)The drastic consequences e.g. burst pipes
are
only seen when it melts again. However your advice about overflows
and sloping sides is very sound.

Hands up everyone who has had a pond crack due to the water
freezing.

Seems unlikely for most ponds, certainly. But in the '62-63 effort my
parents' wooden water-butt in East Devon froze solid and split. We
were as much impressed as dismayed: there aren't many places in Aus
where this can happen! I suspect the barrel shape was the villain.

Mike.

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:
"Tony Bull" wrote in message
om...

[snip]
Hands up everyone who has had a pond crack due to the water
freezing.

Seems unlikely for most ponds, certainly. But in the '62-63 effort my
parents' wooden water-butt in East Devon froze solid and split. We
were as much impressed as dismayed: there aren't many places in Aus
where this can happen! I suspect the barrel shape was the villain.

Mike.

As always the point being made has been missed!
I made no reference to ponds splitting.
Rather than hitting the nail on the head, Franz has battered my thumb!

What I said was that if the water was allowed to freeze while trapped by the
capping stones it could loosen the mortar and make the pond edge unsafe.
Step on a loose stone and take an early bath....
If the water level rises to the capping stones then melting ice is trapped
and can loosen the mortar and make your pond potentially unsafe.
Others chose to read more into my misguided attempts to be helpful.

With regard to sloping sides, that's what my pond book recommends. It seems
sensible advice since our swimming pool needed a number of tiles replacing
after a good freeze. (Vertical sides and no lip to prevent the ice lifting.)
And my dumb reference to melting ice expanding was based on the old advice
that you should never heat a frozen pipe because it will burst. Thankfully I
have now been disabused of this notion.....and may well end up getting a
good soaking! ;o)

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:
"Tony Bull" wrote in message
om...

[snip]

Actually Sue ice expands as it freezes which is why it floats on
water (it's less dense)The drastic consequences e.g. burst pipes
are
only seen when it melts again. However your advice about
overflows
and sloping sides is very sound.

Hands up everyone who has had a pond crack due to the water
freezing.

Seems unlikely for most ponds, certainly. But in the '62-63 effort
my
parents' wooden water-butt in East Devon froze solid and split. We
were as much impressed as dismayed: there aren't many places in Aus
where this can happen! I suspect the barrel shape was the villain.

Yes. But you would, I think, agree that both the thermal and
mechanical properties of a free-standing barrel and a pond differ
dramatically from one another.
{:-))

Franz