I'm planning on building a pond next spring about 4ft * 4ft and 2-3ft
deep. I wont be having any fish just a fountain in the middle. I'll
have 2 rows of paving slaps round the pond as it will be part of a
patio/terrace.

My questions are

1) will I need a filter if I dont have fish

2) How do I get the pump\lights cable into the pond. Is it usual to
run it under the paving in which case what about maintence. I plan on
having a junction box at the edge of the paving 'hidden' by plants.

"NWalch" wrote in message
om...
I'm planning on building a pond next spring about 4ft * 4ft and 2-3ft
deep. I wont be having any fish just a fountain in the middle. I'll
have 2 rows of paving slaps round the pond as it will be part of a
patio/terrace.

My questions are

1) will I need a filter if I dont have fish

No. However it will likely get algae unless you have UV system, or use
algicide from time to time. Are you planning to have plants in it (can be
affected by algicide whatever the makers claim, IME)
Is there any particular reason why it will be so deep? Seems unnecessary if
you just want a fountain to look at.


2) How do I get the pump\lights cable into the pond. Is it usual to
run it under the paving in which case what about maintence. I plan on
having a junction box at the edge of the paving 'hidden' by plants.

I prefer low voltage devices (uses a transformer inside the house) rather
than 240v. In either case, put the cable inside hose pipe buried at least 9
inches deep (instructions will say how deep) if its 240V or for low voltage,
a few inches is fine. I think you can get armoured hose pipe or special
pipes for 240v cable, but you will need to check, anyway for your needs low
voltage will be fine, why increase the risk of electrocution for the sake of
£20 extra for low voltage?

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

My questions are

1) will I need a filter if I dont have fish

No. However it will likely get algae unless you have UV system, or use
algicide from time to time. Are you planning to have plants in it (can be
affected by algicide whatever the makers claim, IME)
Is there any particular reason why it will be so deep? Seems unnecessary if
you just want a fountain to look at.


So just use a UV system but not a full filter (I've seen filters with
UV cleaners in them but I guess that OTT if no fish)

I think I might have a few plants and I prefer to avoid chemicals if
possible.

Not really sure why I chose that deep, probably in case I want fish in
future (no plans but you never know)


2) How do I get the pump\lights cable into the pond. Is it usual to
run it under the paving in which case what about maintence. I plan on
having a junction box at the edge of the paving 'hidden' by plants.

I prefer low voltage devices (uses a transformer inside the house) rather
than 240v. In either case, put the cable inside hose pipe buried at least 9
inches deep (instructions will say how deep) if its 240V or for low voltage,
a few inches is fine. I think you can get armoured hose pipe or special
pipes for 240v cable, but you will need to check, anyway for your needs low
voltage will be fine, why increase the risk of electrocution for the sake of
£20 extra for low voltage?

Good idea although I'm not sure how/where I'm going to connect the
power supply once I get it into the house so a transformer would be an
added problem especially if its not very small and buzzes. I'm sure
I've seen one with an external transformer. If not I'd certainly go
for armoured cable for 24v.

"NWalch" wrote in message
om...
My questions are

1) will I need a filter if I dont have fish

No. However it will likely get algae unless you have UV system, or use
algicide from time to time. Are you planning to have plants in it (can be
affected by algicide whatever the makers claim, IME)
Is there any particular reason why it will be so deep? Seems unnecessary
if
you just want a fountain to look at.


So just use a UV system but not a full filter (I've seen filters with
UV cleaners in them but I guess that OTT if no fish)

I think I might have a few plants and I prefer to avoid chemicals if
possible.

Not really sure why I chose that deep, probably in case I want fish in
future (no plans but you never know)


2) How do I get the pump\lights cable into the pond. Is it usual to
run it under the paving in which case what about maintence. I plan on
having a junction box at the edge of the paving 'hidden' by plants.

I prefer low voltage devices (uses a transformer inside the house) rather
than 240v. In either case, put the cable inside hose pipe buried at least
9
inches deep (instructions will say how deep) if its 240V or for low
voltage,
a few inches is fine. I think you can get armoured hose pipe or special
pipes for 240v cable, but you will need to check, anyway for your needs
low
voltage will be fine, why increase the risk of electrocution for the sake
of
£20 extra for low voltage?

Good idea although I'm not sure how/where I'm going to connect the
power supply once I get it into the house so a transformer would be an
added problem especially if its not very small and buzzes. I'm sure
I've seen one with an external transformer. If not I'd certainly go
for armoured cable for 24v.

240V I presume you mean :-)
The transformer I have doesnt buzz *at all*. It clips onto the wall on a
screw head and is inside (Its ina conservatory so the fact there is a small
box on the wall doesnt matter froma decorating POV) You could always
construct a small waterproof box on an outside wall and put it there I
suppose.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

2) How do I get the pump\lights cable into the pond. Is it usual to
run it under the paving in which case what about maintence. I plan on
having a junction box at the edge of the paving 'hidden' by plants.

It's probably not worth buying
fountains that just give a spray head as they become blocked very
quickly and then you get a mishapen spray unless you clean them out
every day.You also get a lot of water loss when its windy. I may be a
bit biased here!
Also,water lilies do not appreciate drops of water continually falling
on their leaves. Try to have a pebble beach at one end of the pond,
It will be much appreciated by frogs, newts and birds. A few grass
like plants will encourage damselflies and dragonflies. Within a few
weeks you should have an abundance of wildlife.
Tony Bull
www.caterpillarfountain.co.uk

I am planning on a copper fountain (web site noted). What depth would
you recommend for a pond with such a fountain. Could I still use low
voltage as another poster suggested.

Also still not sure how to get the cable (for the lights and pump)
into the pond if its edged with paving slabs (2 rows of on the side
where the cable will come from)

"NWalch" wrote in message
om...

Also still not sure how to get the cable (for the lights and pump)
into the pond if its edged with paving slabs (2 rows of on the side
where the cable will come from)
Lay a piece of plastic conduit (or domestic water overflow pipe will do) on
top of the pond liner at the pond's edge. Cover this with the bedding mortar
and lay your slabs. The pump & light cables should be fed from the pond side
through the conduit. You really should then take the cables away under
ground in further lengths of conduit, using right-angle bends to get the
required depth below the surface.
Don't cut the cables - they can be coiled neatly before connecting to an
IP65 switched outlet or socket.

"Sue da Nimm" . wrote in message ...
"NWalch" wrote in message
om...

Also still not sure how to get the cable (for the lights and pump)
into the pond if its edged with paving slabs (2 rows of on the side
where the cable will come from)
Lay a piece of plastic conduit (or domestic water overflow pipe will do) on
top of the pond liner at the pond's edge. Cover this with the bedding mortar
and lay your slabs. The pump & light cables should be fed from the pond side
through the conduit. You really should then take the cables away under
ground in further lengths of conduit, using right-angle bends to get the
required depth below the surface.
Don't cut the cables - they can be coiled neatly before connecting to an
IP65 switched outlet or socket.

Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.

NWalch wrote:
"Sue da Nimm" . wrote in message
...
"NWalch" wrote in message
om...

Also still not sure how to get the cable (for the lights and
pump)
into the pond if its edged with paving slabs (2 rows of on the
side
where the cable will come from)
Lay a piece of plastic conduit (or domestic water overflow pipe
will
do) on top of the pond liner at the pond's edge. Cover this with
the
bedding mortar and lay your slabs. The pump & light cables should
be
fed from the pond side through the conduit. You really should then
take the cables away under ground in further lengths of conduit,
using right-angle bends to get the required depth below the
surface.
Don't cut the cables - they can be coiled neatly before connecting
to an IP65 switched outlet or socket.

Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you
leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit
back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.

That won't matter, as you won't have any exposed conductor near
ground level. Armoured cable, and even ordinary house-wiring cable,
is impervious to water.

I'd lay out the cable in its conduit or hosepipe before laying the
slabs. Armoured cable won't need this for protection, but it's nice
to know you can pull it out one day if you want to.

Mike.

"NWalch" wrote in message
om...
"Sue da Nimm" . wrote in message
...
"NWalch" wrote in message
om...

Also still not sure how to get the cable (for the lights and pump)
into the pond if its edged with paving slabs (2 rows of on the side
where the cable will come from)
Lay a piece of plastic conduit (or domestic water overflow pipe will do)
on
top of the pond liner at the pond's edge. Cover this with the bedding
mortar
and lay your slabs. The pump & light cables should be fed from the pond
side
through the conduit. You really should then take the cables away under
ground in further lengths of conduit, using right-angle bends to get the
required depth below the surface.
Don't cut the cables - they can be coiled neatly before connecting to an
IP65 switched outlet or socket.

Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.
I apologise for assuming you wouldn't connect the cables to a supply point
BELOW the pond water level!
If you are using a 240v pump it will be pre-wired with a VERY long length of
silicone sheathed cable - hence the suggestion that you coil rather than cut
it. (This is useful when you want to remove the pump from the water for
maintenance.) Then wire to your IP65 box or socket at a convenient point
ABOVE the pond water level..... ;o)
The supply to your IP65 box needs to be armoured if it is remote from a
building. Otherwise you can connect the box through a wall with domestic
cable. If you use armoured cable underground it should be covered with a
row of bricks and topped with a warning tape to comply with regs.
The lights will probably be low voltage so different rules apply. Normally
you would have the transformer inside a building. The cable to the lights
can be joined in the conduit if you "pot" the section with the join. Or you
can buy tubular waterproof connectors in most garden centres selling pond
equipment.

Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.

Just a few further thoughts.
We've always been told to install overflows beneath the edging slabs or
stones. This is to kep the level constant and keep the water from coming up
over the edging when the pond fills with rain.
This is not for aesthetic reasons, but because of the power of melting ice.
The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice formed cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it melts, which is
why it can burst pipes)
If the water level rises to the capping stones then melting ice is trapped
and can loosen the mortar and make your pond potentially unsafe.
We have five ponds, all but two fitted with overflows. (The other two have
waterfalls and can't over-fill)

In article , Sue da Nimm
.? writes
Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.

Just a few further thoughts.
We've always been told to install overflows beneath the edging slabs or
stones. This is to kep the level constant and keep the water from coming up
over the edging when the pond fills with rain.
This is not for aesthetic reasons, but because of the power of melting ice.
The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice formed cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it melts, which is
why it can burst pipes)

Other way round - water expands when it freezes (which is why ice floats
- the same amount of water occupies a larger space when frozen, and so
is less dense), which is why it burst pipes.

But you don't usually realise the pipe has burst until the ice has
melted.


--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"Sue da Nimm" . wrote in message
...
Thanks. Wont that act as an overflow. I guess thats fine if you
leave
run for the water to run away but if you connect all the conduit
back
to the socket then you risk water running back to it during heavy
rain.

Just a few further thoughts.
We've always been told to install overflows beneath the edging slabs
or
stones. This is to kep the level constant and keep the water from
coming up
over the edging when the pond fills with rain.
This is not for aesthetic reasons, but because of the power of
melting ice.
The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice formed
cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it melts,

If that were true, ice would not float. The maximum density of the
ice-water system occurs at about 4 deg C at normal pressures.

which is
why it can burst pipes)

It bursts the pipe when it freeezes, but while it is solid, it seals
the crack. When it melts, the crack is able to leak.

[snip]

Franz

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:18:30 GMT, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message
from "Sue da Nimm" . contains these words:

The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice
formed cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it
melts, which is
why it can burst pipes)


Ice expands as it freezes and shrinks as it melts. The expansion
of
the frozen ice is what bursts pipes or vessels, not the melting of
it.

I am sorry, but you are usurping Franz's job.

Never mind, as long as Janet stays on message, her help with this
onerous task is welcome. {:-))

Franz

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in message
...
The message
from "Sue da Nimm" . contains these words:

The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice formed
cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it melts, which
is
why it can burst pipes)


Ice expands as it freezes and shrinks as it melts. The expansion of
the frozen ice is what bursts pipes or vessels, not the melting of it.

Janet.

Sorry all - choking on humble pie - you are exactly right )
The overall effect is the same, though, ice can damage ponds if there isn't
a suitable overflow provided.

(I won't expand on the point any more in case I contract poster's cramp....)

"Sue da Nimm" . wrote in message
...

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in
message
...
The message
from "Sue da Nimm" . contains these words:

The pond sides should always slope outwards so that any ice formed
cannot
exert sideways pressure when it melts. (Ice EXPANDS when it melts,
which
is
why it can burst pipes)


Ice expands as it freezes and shrinks as it melts. The expansion of
the frozen ice is what bursts pipes or vessels, not the melting of it.

Janet.

Sorry all - choking on humble pie - you are exactly right )
The overall effect is the same, though, ice can damage ponds if there
isn't
a suitable overflow provided.

(I won't expand on the point any more in case I contract poster's
cramp....)



If I remember my elementary physics correctly (and its a big if, because it
is many years since I had to bother with it) the reason water freezing can
burst pipes is that there is a quick formation of feathery dendritic ice,
which forms a network enclosing the water, restricting the volume so that
when the enclosed water expands on freezing it generates sufficient pressure
to fracture the pipe.

The water in your pond is, I assume, open to the atmosphere, so the pressure
will probably be relieved by vertical (upwards) expansion.