In message ,
TWStannard writes
Anyone have any experience of this type of pond? How does one go about the
'puddling' and how durable are they? Contemplating building a water
feature, and as I live on solid clay, it could save me a tonne of money and
lifting! )

This may be of some help - I first posted this to a similar question a
few years ago.

Here is an extract from The Book of the Garden Pond by George Hervey &
Jack Hems, published by Stanley Paul in 1958.

"The introduction of cement has enabled the gardener to build a pond at
no great expense, with the minimum of hard work and with a guarantee of
its durability. Once, however, the gardener was compelled to make a pond
of clay or go without. Today ponds of puddled clay are rarely seen,
except in districts where clay predominates in the local soil. A clay
pond has the virtue of being more in keeping with a natural pond, but
that is about its only virtue. It calls for considerable skill if it is
to be made watertight (and that surely a pond must be), and for so much
hard work that posterity would hardly have raised a surprised eyebrow if
Eurystheus had included one among the tasks that he set Hercules.

A hole is dug to the required size ('Easy the way down to hell'). The
clay, which must be free from stones and the like, is collected ('But to
retrace your steps'), soaked and puddled to the consistency of
plasticine. The puddling must be done thoroughly if the pond is to be
watertight ('To regain the upper air') and straw may be worked into the
clay, to act as a binding agent, although it is not absolutely
necessary. When the clay has been thoroughly puddled ('There lies the
task, there lies the toil') the excavation is lined with crushed clinker
and small stones, and a layer of soot, about three inches thick, to
discourage worms. The clay is laid over it to a depth of at least eight
inches. it is rammed down until the surface is almost dry, perfectly
smooth and free from air-holes. The walls of the pond should be built in
the same way, not however, vertically, but sloping slightly outwards to
lessen the risk of their caving in. The pond should be rinsed and filled
before the clay is allowed to dry, and must be kept filled at all times,
because once the clay dries it cracks.
Puddled clay is suitable only for a small pond, and even so, is not
always to be trusted. Clay ponds are very liable to spring leaks,
particularly when roots of the water plants penetrate the clay, or worms
tunnel into it, soot not withstanding".

--
Robert

"nick dickenson" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:33:13 +0000, Simon Avery wrote:



According to some (not all) of the books I've read about ponding,
using normal liners in saturated ground is a bad idea, and say the
liner will rise to the surface.

Personally I've got my doubts about that, given the weight of water
above it, and that the water is the same density above or below the
liner.


No, it is a well documented phenomena. The hippopotamus effect!


I'll leave the mental image to the reader to construct.

pk

Simon Avery wrote:

According to some (not all) of the books I've read about ponding,
using normal liners in saturated ground is a bad idea, and say the
liner will rise to the surface.

Personally I've got my doubts about that, given the weight of water
above it, and that the water is the same density above or below the
liner.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/


Well, it hasn't in our three lined ponds! One of our friends had that
problem: but the water was flowing pretty fast in his case, at least in
winter. Ours just seeps.

Anita

An farmer ex-neighbour of ours diversified into a trout fishing lake
some years ago. It was excavated with a digger in a level place that
wasn't previously a natural sump or bog, well above a river. He had
expected to use bentonite ( a clay substitute) to line the hole but
found a thick seam of natural clay deep under the topsoil; this turned
out to be good enough on its own.Clay excavated from the base was packed
(by digger)around the sloping soil sides of the hole up to ground
level.I've forgotten the depth measurement; at least 3 metres. The lake
is about three quarters of an acre, filled/topped-up/oxygenated by a
pipe led from a waterfall in the river at a higher level. An overflow
returns water to the river downstream.

During the water-filling, he found there was a leak a few feet down
one side; this turned out to be because the pool wall breached an old
land drain . Once that was stopped off, the pool has successfully stayed
full. The sloping banks were grassed to prevent erosion by people's
feet; that and the high rainfall in west Scotland seems to prevent any
cracks developing where the clay is above water.

Janet.

"nick dickenson" wrote:

Hello nick

According to some (not all) of the books
I've read about ponding, using normal liners in saturated
ground is a bad idea, and say the liner will rise to the
surface. Personally I've got my doubts about that, given
the weight of water above it, and that the water is the
same density above or below the liner.

nd Liners will rise in a pond due to the decomposition of
nd organic matter below the liner. As long as any organic
nd matter (ie dead leaves etc) are removed prior to the laying
nd down of the liner, then it shouldn't fill with gas and rise.

Ooh, that does make sense, and thank you for the first rational answer
to that question I've ever heard. The books specifically state water
pushing it up, but yours does have an element of plausibility about
it - although how much organic matter would be in the subsoil at the
bottom of a (non-raised) pond I'm not sure.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:50:28 +0000, Simon Avery wrote:

"nick dickenson" wrote:

Hello nick

According to some (not all) of the books
I've read about ponding, using normal liners in saturated
ground is a bad idea, and say the liner will rise to the
surface. Personally I've got my doubts about that, given
the weight of water above it, and that the water is the
same density above or below the liner.

nd Liners will rise in a pond due to the decomposition of
nd organic matter below the liner. As long as any organic
nd matter (ie dead leaves etc) are removed prior to the laying
nd down of the liner, then it shouldn't fill with gas and rise.

Ooh, that does make sense, and thank you for the first rational answer
to that question I've ever heard. The books specifically state water
pushing it up, but yours does have an element of plausibility about
it - although how much organic matter would be in the subsoil at the
bottom of a (non-raised) pond I'm not sure.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/
The offending organic matter that causes the problem is usually the type
that falls into the hole once it is dug (ie fallen leaves and other plant
matter such as grass, bits of weeds etc etc) These should be cleaned prior
to the laying of the liner or they will decompose and release gasses in
the process. It is these gasses that cause the liner to rise. Therefore,
if you dig your pond in the Autumn and it is going to be a couple of weeks
or so before you lay the liner, make sure you clear out the dead leaves
completely before you lay the liner or you will run into problems.
I can't see how water could cause the liner to rise? I would have thought
that water would take the path of least resistance, so if your pond is in
the way it would surely track sideways and find another exit. Or maybe I'm
wrong, it has been a long time since I was last at school!! Also, I always
thought that water finds "its own level" and if that is the case you are
more in danger of the water wanting to get out of your pond rather than
water trying to find its way in :-)
Thank you for your kind comments above though.

In message , Simon Avery
writes
According to some (not all) of the books I've read about ponding,
using normal liners in saturated ground is a bad idea, and say the
liner will rise to the surface.

Personally I've got my doubts about that, given the weight of water
above it, and that the water is the same density above or below the
liner.

Simon

At my last house I built a 5m x 5m pond in a renowned clay area during a
drought.

Once it rained heavily, my liner lifted in waterlogged soils and
destroyed all the hard work.

It had to be drained and I put in a 2m deep 'soak away' lined with
gravel and led the ground water off into a distant ditch - this cost a
lot of money!

Just thought I'd add my tuppence worth.
--
Steve Jackson

In message , Simon Avery
writes
"nick dickenson" wrote:

Hello nick

According to some (not all) of the books
I've read about ponding, using normal liners in saturated
ground is a bad idea, and say the liner will rise to the
surface. Personally I've got my doubts about that, given
the weight of water above it, and that the water is the
same density above or below the liner.

nd Liners will rise in a pond due to the decomposition of
nd organic matter below the liner. As long as any organic
nd matter (ie dead leaves etc) are removed prior to the laying
nd down of the liner, then it shouldn't fill with gas and rise.

Ooh, that does make sense, and thank you for the first rational answer
to that question I've ever heard. The books specifically state water
pushing it up, but yours does have an element of plausibility about
it - although how much organic matter would be in the subsoil at the
bottom of a (non-raised) pond I'm not sure.

Just to come back in here again, in my case there was no organic
material in the hole once the liner was removed - all there was was a
hole full of dirty brown water!
--
Steve Jackson