"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?
John

IIRC the killing of any animal whether vermin or not, must be done humanely
and without causing pain or fear,and drowning is likely to be slow, terror
inducing and as stressful as possible. Totally unaceptable IMO.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed from 30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.


I suspect if someone was seen to drown an animal and the witness reported
it and could prove it, the perp' would be prosecuted and convicted.

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How would they find out? Another unworkable law like the law making use
of mobiles while driving illegal. Who cares about abuse of vermin like
grey squirrels anyway?

Any normal right thinking human being does. To be totally indifferent to
any creature's terror and suffering would make you a psychopath.

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "pammyT" contains these words:

I am sorry but the thought of any creature struggling to breath for
several
minutes while underwater turns my stomach. I nearly drowned as a
youngster
and it was not pleasant and certainly not fast. The memory has never
left me
and I would never advocate using this bloody inhumane method of killing
anything.

Much as I dislike grey squirrels (except in a pie or casserole) I have
to agree with the above. I rescued some sort of fly from rainwater in a
container, yesterday as it struggled to get a grip on the plastic sides.

Any squirrels I kill depart suddenly, with a ·22" hole in the head.

I have no problem with killing vermin. In theory, I have no problem with
killing any animal. But as a rational compassionate human being, I abhoir
cruelty and suffering. If you must eradicate vermin, for heaven's sake, do
it fast without making the creature suffer. It doesn't *know* it is vermin.
It doesn't act the way it does, simply to make a nuisance of itself. It is
simply being a grey squirrel.

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How can it be inhumane? We are not dealing with humans, but animals and
vermin at that.

ITY are a troll. Either that or you are clinically a phychopath, unable to
imagine anything from another perspective and have no concept of another's
suffering.

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
Why am I vile for wanting to kill vermin? I might be considered vile if
I wanted to kill another human, but vermin? What is so special about
grey squirrels? Please explain your point of view.

Are you sure you missed the point? Are you really *that* dim?
The objection here is not necessarily the killing or this species of animal,
but the methods used to kill. Any rational, normal human being, would want
to kill quickly, and painlessly whereas you seem to want to cause the most
suffeerring and seem not to feel any compassion at all for a creature you
seem to fear or hate. This is simply not rational.

In message , BAC
writes

"John Edgar" wrote in message
roups.com...
How can it be inhumane? We are not dealing with humans, but animals and
vermin at that.


I'm assuming you are responding to a post which suggested that killing
squirrels by drowning might be considered inhumane?

Do you believe it is impossible to be inhumane to any non-human animal? If
so, how would you define 'humane'?


I think humane is treating any species with the dignity and kindness
that I would afford a 'human' under the same circumstances. In fact I
think some humans are the only creatures that I could delight in killing
slowly :-))
--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

On Thu, 5 May 2005 16:36:09 +0100, pammyT wrote:

IIRC the killing of any animal whether vermin or not, must be done
humanely and without causing pain or fear,

On that basis ordinary rat poison can hardly be called humane, it is
not a nice death.

I do agree that drowning is not really acceptable. Shoot or hit over
the head or wring it's neck. If you can't kill by the latter two
methods then perhaps you shouldn't be killing in the first place.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

The message .com
from "John Edgar" contains these words:

Please explain the use of the word "tosser" in this context

Please don't feed the trolls.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message om
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words:
On Thu, 5 May 2005 16:36:09 +0100, pammyT wrote:

IIRC the killing of any animal whether vermin or not, must be done
humanely and without causing pain or fear,

On that basis ordinary rat poison can hardly be called humane, it is
not a nice death.

It depends on the poison. Strychnine might fit your bill, but I think
it's illegal, except for killing moles. Warfarin is humane, in that the
rat/mouse &c is slowly weakened by continuous slight bleeding from the
villi in the small intestine. It gets weaker and lapses into a coma,
then dies.

There is no pain involved.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On Thu, 5 May 2005 20:39:15 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

Warfarin is humane, in that the rat/mouse &c is slowly weakened by
continuous slight bleeding from the villi in the small intestine. It
gets weaker and lapses into a coma, then dies.

There is no pain involved.

Have you seen a poisoned rat just before it "lapses into a coma"? I
have, it was not happy, wheezing, hardly able to move, bleeding from
the mouth, nose and ears. It looked in pain to me, certainly not just
quietly falling asleep and dieing. I put it out of it's misery with a
whack to the back of the head.

This was common "off the shelf" Rentokil Rat & Mouse killer active
ingredient bromadiolone rather than warfarin itself. They both act in
the same manner though by blocking the Vitamin K dependant synthesis
of prothrombin.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

John Edgar wrote:
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It isn't illegal, although it is illegal to drown them "with intent to
inflict unnecessary suffering". Also, it does not take very long at all.
The alternative is to run it from the trap into a sack (a cloth one),
push it into a corner with your foot, and belt it with something.

John Edgar wrote:
How would they find out? Another unworkable law like the law making use
of mobiles while driving illegal.

Erm, that law is quite workable, much like the seat-belt law.

Who cares about abuse of vermin like grey squirrels anyway?

Well, I do, for one. It's unacceptable. If setting traps, for instance,
you *must* inspect them frequently.

Anyway, this is getting somewhat OT for u.r.g.

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
It depends on the poison. Strychnine might fit your bill, but I think
it's illegal, except for killing moles.

Strychnine is one of the more disagreeable poisons. I do not
think it is humane at all. It is also highly dangerous to the
general population, and persistent.

To quote from my dictionary "psychopath - a person suffering from
chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour."
Exactly how social is a relationship with a grey squirrel - dead or
alive?

The message om
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words:
On Thu, 5 May 2005 20:39:15 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

Warfarin is humane, in that the rat/mouse &c is slowly weakened by
continuous slight bleeding from the villi in the small intestine. It
gets weaker and lapses into a coma, then dies.

There is no pain involved.

Have you seen a poisoned rat just before it "lapses into a coma"? I
have, it was not happy, wheezing, hardly able to move, bleeding from
the mouth, nose and ears. It looked in pain to me, certainly not just
quietly falling asleep and dieing. I put it out of it's misery with a
whack to the back of the head.

Seen many times - thousands, even. I used to have a smallholding, and
later, I lived for some years on a large farm.

This was common "off the shelf" Rentokil Rat & Mouse killer active
ingredient bromadiolone rather than warfarin itself. They both act in
the same manner though by blocking the Vitamin K dependant synthesis
of prothrombin.

Yup. And by the time they get to the state you describe they are barely
concious.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
To quote from my dictionary "psychopath - a person suffering from
chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour."
Exactly how social is a relationship with a grey squirrel - dead or
alive?


Has someone called you a psychopath, then? It's difficult to tell when you
snip all the context.

Sorry. I am using Google groups and am not too used to it. I don't know
how to include the original postings. Any ideas?

The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:
Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

It depends on the poison. Strychnine might fit your bill, but I think
it's illegal, except for killing moles.

Strychnine is one of the more disagreeable poisons. I do not
think it is humane at all. It is also highly dangerous to the
general population, and persistent.

This is true, and the reason why pest control people have to be licensed
to acquire it.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message om
from "John Edgar" contains these words:

Sorry. I am using Google groups and am not too used to it. I don't know
how to include the original postings. Any ideas?

Yes - doesn't your ISP have a newsfeed? Then you can use a proper
newsreader, such as Thunderbird (with Firefox), Opera News, Netscape
Communicator, I think Agent does news as well as mail, oh, lots of
decent programs are available.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

In article . com,
"John Edgar" writes:
| To quote from my dictionary "psychopath - a person suffering from
| chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour."
| Exactly how social is a relationship with a grey squirrel - dead or
| alive?

It depends whether you are into bestiality or not.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article . com,
"John Edgar" writes:
| To quote from my dictionary "psychopath - a person suffering from
| chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour."
| Exactly how social is a relationship with a grey squirrel - dead or
| alive?

It depends whether you are into bestiality or not.



There must be some pretty big squirrels in your part of the world!

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
To quote from my dictionary "psychopath - a person suffering from
chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour."
Exactly how social is a relationship with a grey squirrel - dead or
alive?

Your dictionary is not correct. The reason I know this is because my ex
husband was a psychopath and had to have regular visits from the CPN. He
explained that being psychopathic was nothing to do with being violent or
displaying violent tendencies.It is a lack of an abillity to empathis with
another's point of view or to feel any guilt or regret if they have caused
pain or sufferring to another.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed from 30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the disposal of
this type of vermin.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How would they find out? Another unworkable law like the law making use
of mobiles while driving illegal. Who cares about abuse of vermin like
grey squirrels anyway?


How would who find out what?

Whilst many people accept the necessity of pest control, that doesn't mean
they would condone wanton cruelty to the 'pest'. Would you think it OK to
kill squirrels by roasting them alive over a slow fire, for example?

Would you consider a time of 10 seconds, or less, to death, cruelty?

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
John Edgar wrote:
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It isn't illegal, although it is illegal to drown them "with intent to
inflict unnecessary suffering". Also, it does not take very long at all.
The alternative is to run it from the trap into a sack (a cloth one),
push it into a corner with your foot, and belt it with something.

I would not wish to take a chance risking my hand being severely damaged by
a vicious squirrel whilst trying to open the trap to get it into a sack.

Alan

"p.k." wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"Graham Daniels" wrote in message
...
We have a grey squirrel which regulalrly comes to the bird table
trying to get at the fat balls and peanuts, usually unsuccessfully.
However, the litte rascal has now found it's way under our roof
tiles in to the attic and pays a visit at about 4 am every morning.
It can be heard scratching away in the attic - waking us up in the
process. Any suggestions for a (humane) solution?

Thanks

Graham

Either sleeping pills or get up and enjoy the morning.


....or stay in bed and enjoy the morning (;-)

ROTFL

Beautiful!

Alan


pk

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
John Edgar wrote:
You do not need to be humane, but maleficent in the extreme. They are
vermin and will do untold damage in your roof. They may look like
charming rascals, but they are more like monsters.

Put some poison in your roof space. That gets rid of them. You do not
ned the female giving birth up there, because the whole family will
keep coming back and they are extremely persistent. You need to kill
them all quickly. If you do not get rid of them, they will eat through
electric wiring. It all gets very expensive.

It does get expensive. I have recently replaced all the wiring in
a loft in a semi-detached house. It was nibbled bare in many places,
and a flex to a loft light had been gnawed through. The loft
insulation had been tunnelled into, raked about, and was covered in
squirrel excrement and urine. Some joists (2"x4") had been chewed
badly, about 30% of their cross-sectional area having been removed.
The loft hatch had apparently been a favoured spot for urination,
and the white gloss paint had bubbled off along one side. The owner
had previously re-wired and installed new loft insulation after the
same problem.

I've never heard a way to deter them that works. If you can find
out how they're getting in, stop up the way, but you may well find
that disposing of the individual that's found its way in is best
as they are persistent little osds and will try to re-open their
route in.

Try a Fenn trap (Mk IV). Follow the instructions. They're about a
tenner each to buy. You can get them at good fishing/sports shops,
or on the 'Net, eg: http://www.vespestcontrol.co.uk/fenn.html
http://www.euroguns.co.uk/acatalog/Fenn_traps.html Bacon rind tied
around the plate is good bait. Mind your fingers when you set them,
they are a bit vicious (don't put your fingers near a live squirrel,
either!). Make sure you inspect the trap at least twice a day for
humanitarian reasons. Also, make sure you fasten the chain on the
trap down so it can't be dragged away into the eaves. Otherwise, a
"live trap" is useful (use maize for bait) - when you've caught a
squirrel, dunk the trap and contents into a water butt. It's illegal
to release a caught squirrel elsewhere.

I am sorry but the thought of any creature struggling to breath for
several
minutes while underwater turns my stomach.

You have absolutely no idea of the prcedure for disposing of vermin, when
I had to start dealing with these pests, I was concerned about the effect
it was having, so I timed it, it generaly takes less that ten seconds.

This is nothing compared with the suffering this vermin makes when it raids
birds nests.

Alan



I nearly drowned as a youngster
and it was not pleasant and certainly not fast. The memory has never left
me
and I would never advocate using this bloody inhumane method of killing
anything.

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...

Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

I'd love to, when can we meet?(:-)

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
Please explain the use of the word "tosser" in this context

What context is that?

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
Are squirrels even aware that they are being systematically destroyed?
I think not so who cares?

What on earth makes you think that grey squirrels are being destroyed, for
every one which I kill there are at least ten waiting to take it's place.

Now if you were referring to red squirrels I have to agree that they have
been all but destroyed, which is why we kave a need to reduce the grey
squirrel population, preferrably to nil.


--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
Drowning is very quick,
how the hell do you figure that out? Drowning is slow and bloody cruel and
possibly illegal as a method of killling the thing.

it would be dangerous to attempt to get them into a
sack,
as that would require opening the cage, which, if you have ever seen one
close up,
you would not wish to get that close to.


Ya big wimp. I have been close up to them, in Canada where I fed them from
my hand every morning, and over here where a rescue sanctuary had one in a
large aviary.

Do you also feed the other type of rat, the ones without the furry tails?

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Thu, 5 May 2005 16:36:09 +0100, pammyT wrote:

IIRC the killing of any animal whether vermin or not, must be done
humanely and without causing pain or fear,

On that basis ordinary rat poison can hardly be called humane, it is
not a nice death.

I do agree that drowning is not really acceptable. Shoot or hit over
the head or wring it's neck.

One problem here is that you need a gun licence to shoot the things,
which is not easy to obtain under the present state of law.

So, I'm afraid it's back to drowning.

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

The message
from "pammyT" contains these words:

Your dictionary is not correct. The reason I know this is because my ex
husband was a psychopath and had to have regular visits from the CPN. He
explained that being psychopathic was nothing to do with being violent or
displaying violent tendencies.It is a lack of an abillity to empathis with
another's point of view or to feel any guilt or regret if they have caused
pain or sufferring to another.

Sorry, but that's not the definition either. That would fit an autistic
person just as well.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:

I do agree that drowning is not really acceptable. Shoot or hit over
the head or wring it's neck.

One problem here is that you need a gun licence to shoot the things,
which is not easy to obtain under the present state of law.

So, I'm afraid it's back to drowning.

A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.

I used to kill squirrels (and rabbits) with headshots from a very old
air rifle I bought very secondhand in the early '60s (It probably dates
from around 1920) and it's still going strong. (Though with a new spring
and plunger.)

I use a pre-charged magazine one now, with a big 'scope, but it's no
more effective, except in the dusk or dark.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:

Whilst many people accept the necessity of pest control, that doesn't mean
they would condone wanton cruelty to the 'pest'. Would you think it OK to
kill squirrels by roasting them alive over a slow fire, for example?

Would you consider a time of 10 seconds, or less, to death, cruelty?

It wouldn't *BE* only ten seconds. The animal could hold its breath for
a lot longer than that, and even with lungs full of water, death isn't
immediate.

I wouldn't drown any creature. Except perhaps a politician, at birth.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Alan Holmes wrote:
"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
Drowning is very quick,
how the hell do you figure that out? Drowning is slow and bloody
cruel and possibly illegal as a method of killling the thing.

it would be dangerous to attempt to get them into a
sack,
as that would require opening the cage, which, if you have ever
seen one close up,
you would not wish to get that close to.


Ya big wimp. I have been close up to them, in Canada where I fed
them from my hand every morning, and over here where a rescue
sanctuary had one in a large aviary.

Do you also feed the other type of rat, the ones without the furry
tails?

I used to. I had four as pets when I was younger. Cracking animals, rats.
Very intelligent and clean - and the best pets for children.

--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/

BAC wrote:
"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How can it be inhumane? We are not dealing with humans, but animals
and vermin at that.


I'm assuming you are responding to a post which suggested that killing
squirrels by drowning might be considered inhumane?

Do you believe it is impossible to be inhumane to any non-human
animal? If so, how would you define 'humane'?

From the Chambers Dictionary: -

humane adj 1 kind and sympathetic. 2 said of a killing: done with as little
pain and suffering as possible. 3 said of a branch of learning: aiming to
civilize and make more elegant and polite. humanely adverb. humaneness noun.

Nothing whatsoever to do with 'human' except it's usually humans doing the
killing.


--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/

In message , Alan Holmes
writes

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...

Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

I'd love to, when can we meet?(:-)

LOL it's not a pretty sight nowadays :-))
--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
Ya big wimp. I have been close up to them, in Canada where I fed them
from
my hand every morning, and over here where a rescue sanctuary had one in
a
large aviary.

Do you also feed the other type of rat, the ones without the furry tails?

Err what type in particular? I have a pet rat which I feed. What *other*
sort of rats are there?