"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

I am sorry but the thought of any creature struggling to breath for
several
minutes while underwater turns my stomach.

You have absolutely no idea of the prcedure for disposing of vermin, when
I had to start dealing with these pests, I was concerned about the effect
it was having, so I timed it, it generaly takes less that ten seconds.
You are deluding yourself.It would be able to hold its breath, then even
after the first lungful of water it would be concious for some seconds. May
I suggest you hold your head in a bucket of water until your lungs are
bursting, then inhale some water, then come back and tell me is is painless
and humane. As I said before, I nearly drowned as a 9 year old child and it
was terrifying.The mere thought of it makes me take big gulps of breath just
to dispell the mental image.

This is nothing compared with the suffering this vermin makes when it
raids
birds nests.
You obviously hate the things because you are imagining things. When any
animal raids a birds nest it will take eggs and chicks, the chicks I would
assume die quickly from a bite or shock. Nothing compared to drowning. Cull
if you must but have the decency to do it quickly, painlessly and without
causing undue terror or suffering. You make it sound like you almost justify
causing suffering because they are so great a vermin.

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How can it be inhumane? We are not dealing with humans, but animals and
vermin at that.

ITY are a troll. Either that or you are clinically a phychopath, unable to
imagine anything from another perspective and have no concept of another's
suffering.

No he is not a troll, it is quite possible you are, who else would make such
a fuss about killing vermin.

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
Why am I vile for wanting to kill vermin? I might be considered vile if
I wanted to kill another human, but vermin? What is so special about
grey squirrels? Please explain your point of view.

Are you sure you missed the point? Are you really *that* dim?
The objection here is not necessarily the killing or this species of
animal,
but the methods used to kill. Any rational, normal human being, would want
to kill quickly, and painlessly whereas you seem to want to cause the most
suffeerring and seem not to feel any compassion at all for a creature you
seem to fear or hate. This is simply not rational.

You should be addressing your comments to the Forestry Commision, it is they
who recomend drowning as a means of disposing of vermin.

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
John Edgar wrote:
How would they find out? Another unworkable law like the law making use
of mobiles while driving illegal.

Erm, that law is quite workable, much like the seat-belt law.

Who cares about abuse of vermin like grey squirrels anyway?

Well, I do, for one. It's unacceptable. If setting traps, for instance,
you *must* inspect them frequently.

I agree, although sometimes it is a waste of time, I went to check my traps
one day, and I found in one an unidentifiable lump of something, closer
examination showed it to be the head of a squirrel. Obviously the foxes
had got there before me and killed the thing but dragging bits of it out
of the trap. I leave you to imagine the effect on the squirrel!

Anyway, this is getting somewhat OT for u.r.g.

I'm afraid I do not agree, they cause a great deal of damage to gardens.

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...
In message , Alan Holmes
writes

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...

Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

I'd love to, when can we meet?(:-)

LOL it's not a pretty sight nowadays :-))

Snap!(:-)

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How would they find out? Another unworkable law like the law making use
of mobiles while driving illegal. Who cares about abuse of vermin like
grey squirrels anyway?

Any normal right thinking human being does. To be totally indifferent to
any creature's terror and suffering would make you a psychopath.

Whilst cleaning a crab for my tea, I began to wonder if the Pompous, High
and Mighty pammyT ever ate things like lobsters, which are a favourite in
the American continent, or shrimps or prawns, or indeed any other seafood.

If she does, she must surely be aware that some of those are cooked whilst
still alive, fish are dragged from the bottom of the sea and 'drowned' and
it takes them much longer than ten seconds to end their lives, the fact
that they cannot scream does not mean they are not suffering.

I do hope that that thought, does not put off the more sensible readers
from enjoying their fish and chips.

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

I am sorry but the thought of any creature struggling to breath for
several
minutes while underwater turns my stomach.

You have absolutely no idea of the prcedure for disposing of vermin, when
I had to start dealing with these pests, I was concerned about the effect
it was having, so I timed it, it generaly takes less that ten seconds.
You are deluding yourself.It would be able to hold its breath, then even
after the first lungful of water it would be concious for some seconds.
May
I suggest you hold your head in a bucket of water until your lungs are
bursting, then inhale some water, then come back and tell me is is
painless
and humane. As I said before, I nearly drowned as a 9 year old child and
it
was terrifying.The mere thought of it makes me take big gulps of breath
just
to dispell the mental image.

This is nothing compared with the suffering this vermin makes when it
raids
birds nests.
You obviously hate the things because you are imagining things. When any
animal raids a birds nest it will take eggs and chicks, the chicks I would
assume die quickly from a bite or shock. Nothing compared to drowning.
Cull
if you must but have the decency to do it quickly, painlessly and without
causing undue terror or suffering. You make it sound like you almost
justify
causing suffering because they are so great a vermin.

I do wonder whether you read any of my posts properly.

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them and
put your concerns to them.

It is widely recognised in this country that the grey squirrel is vermin
and has to be kept under control, if you are unhappy about that then I
suggest you stop reading uk newsgroups.

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
Ya big wimp. I have been close up to them, in Canada where I fed them
from
my hand every morning, and over here where a rescue sanctuary had one
in
a
large aviary.

Do you also feed the other type of rat, the ones without the furry tails?

Err what type in particular? I have a pet rat which I feed. What *other*
sort of rats are there?

Ones with bushy tails, and others which invade homes and leave mess
everywhere
some of which is a danger to health.

Are you sure you missed the point? Are you really *that* dim?
The objection here is not necessarily the killing or this species of
animal,
but the methods used to kill. Any rational, normal human being, would
want
to kill quickly, and painlessly whereas you seem to want to cause the
most
suffeerring and seem not to feel any compassion at all for a creature
you
seem to fear or hate. This is simply not rational.

The point I am making is that the methods used to kill vermin are
unimportant. They are vermin, hence any death is better for us than
that they live. Get rid of them and good riddance. If they suffer, they
suffer. They make me suffer.
John

Yes - doesn't your ISP have a newsfeed? Then you can use a proper
newsreader, such as Thunderbird (with Firefox), Opera News, Netscape
Communicator, I think Agent does news as well as mail, oh, lots of
decent programs are available.

I was using Agent to access the news service in Germany - I forget its
name, but they started charging. I have a basic BB ISP that does not
provide usenet service hence the use of Google groups. I am now using
copy and paste and hope it works
John

Your dictionary is not correct. The reason I know this is because my ex

husband was a psychopath and had to have regular visits from the CPN.
He
explained that being psychopathic was nothing to do with being violent
or
displaying violent tendencies.It is a lack of an abillity to empathis
with
another's point of view or to feel any guilt or regret if they have
caused
pain or sufferring to another.

The Concise Oxford Dictionary, 1999 edition, is incorrect? I think not.

Whilst many people accept the necessity of pest control, that doesn't
mean
they would condone wanton cruelty to the 'pest'. Would you think it OK
to
kill squirrels by roasting them alive over a slow fire, for example?


Why not?

ITY are a troll. Either that or you are clinically a phychopath, unable
to
imagine anything from another perspective and have no concept of
another's
suffering.

Yes I do. I don't want humans to suffer, nor pussy cats nor dogs nor
horses not red squirrels nor bumble bees, and so on. Vermin are
different.
John

Do you believe it is impossible to be inhumane to any non-human animal?
If
so, how would you define 'humane'?

The treatment of humans in as respectful a manner as possible: animals
on an ad hoc basis.
John

In fact I
think some humans are the only creatures that I could delight in
killing
slowly :-))

So you are just as bad, if not worse, than I am. At least I
differentiate between human animals and animal animals.
John

The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:
"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How can it be inhumane? We are not dealing with humans, but animals and
vermin at that.

ITY are a troll. Either that or you are clinically a phychopath, unable to
imagine anything from another perspective and have no concept of another's
suffering.

No he is not a troll, it is quite possible you are, who else would
make such
a fuss about killing vermin.

Most people, I'd guess, as well as HM Governments of various flavours
over the years.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
Your dictionary is not correct. The reason I know this is because my ex

husband was a psychopath and had to have regular visits from the CPN.
He
explained that being psychopathic was nothing to do with being violent
or
displaying violent tendencies.It is a lack of an abillity to empathis
with
another's point of view or to feel any guilt or regret if they have
caused
pain or sufferring to another.

The Concise Oxford Dictionary, 1999 edition, is incorrect? I think not.


But did you quote its entry for 'psychopath' both fully and correctly?

My OED has the following,

"psychopath n.
1a person suffering from chronic mental disorder esp. with abnormal or
violent social behaviour.
2a mentally or emotionally unstable person."

IIRC you omitted the 'esp.' (presumably 'especially')from 1a and didn't
mention 2a at all.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the disposal of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that advice
prior to April 1997?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How would they find out? Another unworkable law like the law making use
of mobiles while driving illegal. Who cares about abuse of vermin like
grey squirrels anyway?


How would who find out what?

Whilst many people accept the necessity of pest control, that doesn't
mean
they would condone wanton cruelty to the 'pest'. Would you think it OK
to
kill squirrels by roasting them alive over a slow fire, for example?

Would you consider a time of 10 seconds, or less, to death, cruelty?


Depends whether or not the '10 seconds' is filled with agony and suffering.
If the animal is shot through the head, it would usually be stunned
instantly. Drowning, IMO, is cruel in comparison.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

snip

I am sorry but the thought of any creature struggling to breath for
several
minutes while underwater turns my stomach.

You have absolutely no idea of the prcedure for disposing of vermin, when
I had to start dealing with these pests, I was concerned about the effect
it was having, so I timed it, it generaly takes less that ten seconds.

This is nothing compared with the suffering this vermin makes when it
raids
birds nests.


So, you drown squirrels to avenge fledglings?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
Are squirrels even aware that they are being systematically destroyed?
I think not so who cares?

What on earth makes you think that grey squirrels are being destroyed, for
every one which I kill there are at least ten waiting to take it's place.

Now if you were referring to red squirrels I have to agree that they have
been all but destroyed, which is why we kave a need to reduce the grey
squirrel population, preferrably to nil.



Alan the Avenger strikes again!

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
Drowning is very quick,
how the hell do you figure that out? Drowning is slow and bloody cruel
and
possibly illegal as a method of killling the thing.

it would be dangerous to attempt to get them into a
sack,
as that would require opening the cage, which, if you have ever seen
one
close up,
you would not wish to get that close to.


Ya big wimp. I have been close up to them, in Canada where I fed them
from
my hand every morning, and over here where a rescue sanctuary had one in
a
large aviary.

Do you also feed the other type of rat, the ones without the furry tails?


Both squirrels and rats are rodents, so in that sense they are related.
However, the belief that some people have about greys being more closely
related to rats than red squirrels is untrue. Both reds and greys belong to
the Aplodontidae family while rats belong to the Muridae (mouse) family. The
name "tree rat" has arisen because in some people's minds they cause a
nuisance comparable to that of rats. Squirrels do not carry the potentially
dangerous diseases that rats may.

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
Whilst many people accept the necessity of pest control, that doesn't
mean
they would condone wanton cruelty to the 'pest'. Would you think it OK
to
kill squirrels by roasting them alive over a slow fire, for example?


Why not?


Most people would not, because to do so would be cruel and inhumane. The
purpose of pest control is to protect whatever 'crop' is threatened by the
pest, not to gain a perverse delight from inflicting uneccessary suffering
on the creature.

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
Do you believe it is impossible to be inhumane to any non-human animal?
If
so, how would you define 'humane'?

The treatment of humans in as respectful a manner as possible: animals
on an ad hoc basis.

Interesting - you quote from the OED to define psychopath, but not 'humane',
why is that?

The message . com
from "John Edgar" contains these words:

Are you sure you missed the point? Are you really *that* dim?
The objection here is not necessarily the killing or this species of
animal,
but the methods used to kill. Any rational, normal human being, would
want
to kill quickly, and painlessly whereas you seem to want to cause the
most
suffeerring and seem not to feel any compassion at all for a creature
you
seem to fear or hate. This is simply not rational.

The point I am making is that the methods used to kill vermin are
unimportant. They are vermin, hence any death is better for us than
that they live. Get rid of them and good riddance. If they suffer, they
suffer. They make me suffer.

You're talking to yourself. Once again you've managed to omit the
attribution and to leave out the text to which you are replying.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message . com
from "John Edgar" contains these words:

Yes - doesn't your ISP have a newsfeed? Then you can use a proper
newsreader, such as Thunderbird (with Firefox), Opera News, Netscape
Communicator, I think Agent does news as well as mail, oh, lots of
decent programs are available.

Now you seem to have quoted me, but with no attribution nor any
attribution chevrons, so it's unlikely that anyone will *KNOW* you're
quoting.

The bit above this should appear thus:

Yes - doesn't your ISP have a newsfeed? Then you can use a proper
newsreader, such as Thunderbird (with Firefox), Opera News, Netscape
Communicator, I think Agent does news as well as mail, oh, lots of
decent programs are available.

And in the one I'm replying to, should have had a single row of chevrons
as below. Each requote adds another row, so you can follow the thread.

I was using Agent to access the news service in Germany - I forget its
name, but they started charging.

Individual.net? Their government funding stopped, and they're not a charity.

I have a basic BB ISP that does not
provide usenet service hence the use of Google groups. I am now using
copy and paste and hope it works

Not really, though I have seen Google groups' messages conforming, so I
believe it can be done. I believe there's a good newsfeed from Poland,
and it's free.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message . com
from "John Edgar" contains these words:

The Concise Oxford Dictionary, 1999 edition, is incorrect? I think not.

The Concise Oxford is, IMO, frequently wrong, and differs markedly from
(for instance) Chambers, Collins, Thorndyke and others.

For preference, I use Chambers. I *HAVE* got the Oxford, but it is my
dictionary of last resort.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

Squirrels do not carry the potentially
dangerous diseases that rats may.

'Fraid they do, sometimes.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
The message . com
from "John Edgar" contains these
words:
[...]
I have a basic BB ISP that does not
provide usenet service hence the use of Google groups. I am now
using
copy and paste and hope it works

Not really, though I have seen Google groups' messages conforming,
so
I believe it can be done. I believe there's a good newsfeed from
Poland,
and it's free.

On Gg, all you have to do is click Show options, then the Reply
at bottom left of the header. It then lets you quote and edit like a
newsreader.

--
Mike.

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
(dispatching trapped squirrels)
A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.

Hm, I'm not sure that this would necessarily be quick, or safe. They
tend to dash about in the cage (*understatement*), so an instantly
fatal shot is very difficult, which might lead to some suffering -
there's the question of ricochets as well.

Perhaps this out to go in a reference document, like the c4t5 one.

Couldn't be bothered to look it up.
John

In article ,
Chris Bacon writes:
| Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
| (dispatching trapped squirrels)
| A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
| pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.
|
| Hm, I'm not sure that this would necessarily be quick, or safe. They
| tend to dash about in the cage (*understatement*), so an instantly
| fatal shot is very difficult, which might lead to some suffering -
| there's the question of ricochets as well.

The former is a real problem, but the latter is not. Even if an
air rifle pellet hits a large flint, the ricochet is minor. A
hollow lead pellet deforms and loses most of its energy even
against an infinitely hard surface.

| Perhaps this out to go in a reference document, like the c4t5 one.

Eh?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Chris Bacon writes:
| Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
| (dispatching trapped squirrels)
| A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
| pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.
|
| Hm, I'm not sure that this would necessarily be quick, or safe. They
| tend to dash about in the cage (*understatement*), so an instantly
| fatal shot is very difficult, which might lead to some suffering -
| there's the question of ricochets as well.

The former is a real problem, but the latter is not. Even if an
air rifle pellet hits a large flint, the ricochet is minor. A
hollow lead pellet deforms and loses most of its energy even
against an infinitely hard surface.

Erm, yeah. Right.

| Perhaps this out to go in a reference document, like the c4t5 one.

Eh?

Shhhh....... re-arrange the following letters to find a well-known
pet: A C S T ( darfc ).

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

Squirrels do not carry the potentially
dangerous diseases that rats may.

'Fraid they do, sometimes.


The main disease they are said to spread is the one which has been ridding
us of red squirrels - unfortunately the greys survive the disease and then
transmit it to any reds they encounter, causing a high mortality amongst the
reds. I don't recall hearing anything about squirrels posing a significant
public health risk to humans, though, unlike rats. Some Council
Environmental Health Departments seem to be of that opinion, e.g.
http://www.havant.gov.uk/havant-2723&menupage=8

from which "The squirrel is not a pest of public health significance; in so
far that it is not a particular vector of disease."

On Fri, 06 May 2005 21:06:36 GMT, Alan Holmes wrote:

One problem here is that you need a gun licence to shoot the things,

For an air pistol? Even a small one is plenty powerful enough from 6".
Pin the little bar steward down with a stick through the cage bars to
stop it leaping about and blat...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:
Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

(dispatching trapped squirrels)
A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.

Hm, I'm not sure that this would necessarily be quick, or safe. They
tend to dash about in the cage (*understatement*), so an instantly
fatal shot is very difficult, which might lead to some suffering -
there's the question of ricochets as well.

Perhaps this out to go in a reference document, like the c4t5 one.

Depends how good a shot you are, and the distance you are shooting from.

We don't bother to trap squirrels, but shoot them in the plantations.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from "BAC" contains these words:
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

Squirrels do not carry the potentially
dangerous diseases that rats may.

'Fraid they do, sometimes.

The main disease they are said to spread is the one which has been ridding
us of red squirrels - unfortunately the greys survive the disease and then
transmit it to any reds they encounter, causing a high mortality amongst the
reds. I don't recall hearing anything about squirrels posing a significant
public health risk to humans, though, unlike rats. Some Council
Environmental Health Departments seem to be of that opinion, e.g.
http://www.havant.gov.uk/havant-2723&menupage=8

from which "The squirrel is not a pest of public health significance; in so
far that it is not a particular vector of disease."

My information is that any rodent can carry Weil's disease.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:
Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

(dispatching trapped squirrels)
A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.

Hm, I'm not sure that this would necessarily be quick, or safe. They
tend to dash about in the cage (*understatement*), so an instantly
fatal shot is very difficult, which might lead to some suffering -
there's the question of ricochets as well.

Perhaps this out to go in a reference document, like the c4t5 one.

Depends how good a shot you are, and the distance you are shooting from.

We don't bother to trap squirrels, but shoot them in the plantations.

Oooh, painful. A head shot is quicker. ;)
--
All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
-- E. Rutherford

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

Squirrels do not carry the potentially
dangerous diseases that rats may.

'Fraid they do, sometimes.

The main disease they are said to spread is the one which has been
ridding
us of red squirrels - unfortunately the greys survive the disease and
then
transmit it to any reds they encounter, causing a high mortality amongst
the
reds. I don't recall hearing anything about squirrels posing a
significant
public health risk to humans, though, unlike rats. Some Council
Environmental Health Departments seem to be of that opinion, e.g.
http://www.havant.gov.uk/havant-2723&menupage=8

from which "The squirrel is not a pest of public health significance; in
so
far that it is not a particular vector of disease."

My information is that any rodent can carry Weil's disease.


See

http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40000444/

This seems to imply that whilst any mammal may be infected by the
Leptospirosis spirochaete, the variety causing Weills Disease 'prefers'
rats. I've done a quick 'Google' linking squirrels with Weills, and not come
up with any warnings.

Given that the disease organism doesn't live long in the dry, if a squirrel
were to be infected, it would only be likely to pass the disease on to a
human if it urinated in water which was subsequently ingested by a human,
either orally or via a skin abrasion. So, people who drown squirrels could
be putting themselves at risk of infection :-)

The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

My information is that any rodent can carry Weil's disease.


See

http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40000444/

This seems to imply that whilst any mammal may be infected by the
Leptospirosis spirochaete, the variety causing Weills Disease 'prefers'
rats. I've done a quick 'Google' linking squirrels with Weills, and not come
up with any warnings.

Indeed: rats are far more likely to carry it because of their lifestyle.

Given that the disease organism doesn't live long in the dry, if a squirrel
were to be infected, it would only be likely to pass the disease on to a
human if it urinated in water which was subsequently ingested by a human,
either orally or via a skin abrasion.

I'm always very careful when skinning them...

So, people who drown squirrels could
be putting themselves at risk of infection :-)

Well, there's that blessin^H^H^H^risk...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/