"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
BAC wrote:
(In Apr, 1997)
The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse

It is not "listed as an abuse" - although it can be an abuse.

"BE IT ENACTED by the Queens' most Excellent Majesty, by and with the
advice
and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this
present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as
follows:-


Offences. 1. If, save as permitted by this Act, any person
mutilates,
kicks, beats, nails or otherwise impales, stabs, burns, stones,
crushes,
drowns, drags or asphyxiates any wild mammal with intent to inflict
unnecessary suffering he shall be guilty of an offence."

It is, prima facie, an abuse, as listed under S1 unless covered by one
of
the exceptions.

One of those exceptions (s2b)
is the killing in a reasonably swift and humane way of a mammal taken
in
the
course of lawful pest control activity.

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by
drowning
'reasonably swift and humane',

Ten seconds!

Is that swift enough?

Drowning is not humane, in my opinion, FWIW, but maybe the courts would
take
a different view. RSPCA told me they would arrange for the matter to be
investigated, if a complaint were made on their cruelty hotline, and I
suppose that would be the first step.

But it is quick.

And am I falling for it?

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

Alan Holmes wrote:
And am I falling for it?

No, and no - I think. He's an issue with drowning squirrels, though,
which is illegal if done to cause unnecessary suffering.

Alan Holmes wrote:
[...]
I still don't understand how killing a piece of vermin in 10
seconds
could be considered to be inhumane, it would not surprise me if it
took a lot longer than that to kill the things by bashing them over
the head, if you could identify the head whilst it was in a sack.

The first blows would most certainly hit any other parts of the
body,
it would
require several blows, which would undoubtably take far longer that
the 10 seconds required to kill the thing by drowning, the traumer
caused to the vermin would be greater than drowning.

I must be mad to get into this mildly obscene thread. Leave aside for
the moment all the stuff about what actually constitutes suffering
for non-human species, and 10 seconds is still quite a long time. As
a kid, wing-forward not three-quarter, I'm sure I did 100 yards in
under 12. Even if you don't hit the head at the first swing,
something's amiss if you can't whack some unfortunate squirrel in a
bag awfully frequently in that length of time. I've no idea if it
holds any general validity, but when David Livingstone was attacked
by a lion, he said it didn't hurt at the time; and, much more
trivially, I know that any aches and pains caused by rugby didn't
start till after the game. So I reckon any reasonably quick death by
shovel or boot in air is going to be quicker and kinder than drowning
in cold water for a squirrel or a rat. The most distressing part, it
seems to me, is likely to be being in the sack at all.

But I'm for shooting if you really must; otherwise, and that's 9999
times out of ten thousand, leave 'em alone and take sensible
gardening precautions if it begins to look like a problem.

--
Mike.

The message
from Janet Baraclough contains these words:
The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:



As I'm a very simple man and cannot understand complicated manuscripts
please
do not refer me to a source where the text is more than a few words long.


If only!

If you would take the trouble to edit your replies to a
comprehensible size, you would probably find it a whole lot easier to
follow conversations here and grasp the simple facts which people have
patiently repeated for you.

I've just deleted all his posts unread, as the replies weren't visible
under all the overquoted text.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

snip


I have no wish to cause myself considerable injury trying to get one of
these things out of the trap.

These things are lethal.


I don't blame them, they are merely trying to survive. Basically, your
attitude seems to be that you follow a method which is easy for you to
do,
regardless of the suffering you inflict on your quarry.

Bearing in mind that I'm a simple ignorant peasant, could you use your
superiority to explain to me, in very simple terms, as I'm not able to
understand complicated things, how I can dispose of this vermin without
any extra cost to me, as I'm a very poor man.


I have already posted the relevant technical advice notes, and suggested
that if you are genuinely interested in current best practice, which I
doubt, you might seek practical advice and guidance from people who try to
dispose of the pests in a humane manner.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

snip


Who is this 'us'? As far as I am aware, you are virtually alone in the
regular deliberate drowning of grey squirrels. Other people who trap
grey
squirrels, presumably, manage to deal with them in a humane manner in
spite
of your suggestion it is impossible to do so. I've already posted the
Forestry Commission Technical Advice Note which includes a description
of
removing the squirrel for bashing over the head - not for shooting. FC
do
not recommend shooting either in or out of the trap.

I'm afraid I don't recall you giving a detailed decription as to how to
remove the squirrel from the trap.

As I'm a very simple man and cannot understand complicated manuscripts
please
do not refer me to a source where the text is more than a few words long.

I'm sure at some time you have mentioned shooting squirrels in the trap.


I'd imagine other people would shoot the creature in the trap.

If you were genuinely concerned about the practicalities of a more
humane
form of disposal, you could contact the RSPCA, your friends at the FC,
the
bloke who sold you the traps (to see whether he now offers different
advice)
the advice line of your local council's pest control department, or
DEFRA,
perhaps, for expert guidance.

When I'm next in Bridgewater I will go to the farm suppliers and ask them,
if I can remember to do that, the brain is very poor at the moment.


Evidently.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...
snip

I still don't understand how killing a piece of vermin in 10 seconds could
be considered to be inhumane, it would not surprise me if it took a lot
longer than that to kill the things by bashing them over the head, if you
could identify the head whilst it was in a sack.

The first blows would most certainly hit any other parts of the body, it
would
require several blows, which would undoubtably take far longer that the 10
seconds required to kill the thing by drowning, the traumer caused to the
vermin would be greater than drowning.


If drowning of mammals is considered a humane form of destruction by the
powers that be, isn't it a little surprising that it doesn't seem to be a
recommended method, and that DEFRA, for example, warns in its rat technical
advice note that drowning is inhumane and a person doing it is risking
prosecution for cruelty?

However, you may be right, and drowning of squirrels may not be contrary to
current law. Next time you deliberately drown a squirrel, why not report
yourself to the RSPCA or the local police and find out?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

snip


Up in the north west, where the conservation bodies are concerned about
the
spread of grey squirrels into red squirrel territory, they will supply
householders with live traps (so any red squirrels caught may be
released)
and they advise householders not to try and shoot the grey squirrels in
the
cages themselves, but to contact the squirrel project people, who send
round
an expert to kill the squirrel, either by shooting or by lethal
injection.
So I'd imagine it is possible for people with the necessary skill and
experience.

Interesting, how do I contact the squirrel project people and will they
come
to dispatch squirrels caught by me?


If you telephone your local Wildlife Trust, they will probably be able to
let you know whether any such project and/or assistance is available in your
area, and, if so, who to contact. Similarly, the pest control section of
your local council might also be able to advise you.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
snip

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by
drowning
'reasonably swift and humane',

Ten seconds!

Is that swift enough?

Drowning is not humane, in my opinion, FWIW, but maybe the courts would
take
a different view. RSPCA told me they would arrange for the matter to be
investigated, if a complaint were made on their cruelty hotline, and I
suppose that would be the first step.

But it is quick.


But the law doesn't say a method should be 'quick and easy', it says it
should be 'swift and humane'.

I first participated in this thread, IIRC, when someone asked whether
drowning trapped squirrels was 'legal' in this country. For the reasons I
have explained several times, I personally doubt whether it would be
regarded as a lawful means of dispatch. However, that decision would be up
to the prosecutors and ultimately the courts, not me, what's needed is a
test case.

Eastern Daily Press, 18th May, Centro - (centre pages) -

"And special today - roasted squirrel..."

www.edp24.co.uk/eatingout

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
Eastern Daily Press, 18th May, Centro - (centre pages) -

"And special today - roasted squirrel..."

www.edp24.co.uk/eatingout


I wonder whether the recipe starts 'First drown your squirrel ...'?

The message
from "BAC" contains these words:
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...

Eastern Daily Press, 18th May, Centro - (centre pages) -

"And special today - roasted squirrel..."

www.edp24.co.uk/eatingout


I wonder whether the recipe starts 'First drown your squirrel ...'?

No. 'Fraid not.

You can read about Butler's Wharf Chop House at www.conran.co.uk/

Read What Giles Coren thought of the dish at
www.timesonline.co.uk/foodanddrink

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:



As I'm a very simple man and cannot understand complicated manuscripts
please
do not refer me to a source where the text is more than a few words long.


If only!

If you would take the trouble to edit your replies to a
comprehensible size, you would probably find it a whole lot easier to
follow conversations here and grasp the simple facts which people have
patiently repeated for you.

Yes, sorry about that, I do try, but sometimes it's difficult to know
whix=ch bits to but and what to leave so others can follw the subject.

I promise to do better in future!

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:


And am I falling for it?

He's been posting to this group for years under the same name so you
should know by now that he's not a troll. You, on the other hand, are
testing the limits of the great forbearance shown to you, personally, by
the rest of this group. Please give it a rest.

I agree, this has been going on far to long, but those who raise objections
clearly have never had to deal with this sort of pest, and many of the
suggestions as to how to deal with it are completly impractical.

This will be my last word on the subject.

Do I hear lots of cheering!(:-)

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net


Janet.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:


And am I falling for it?

He's been posting to this group for years under the same name so you
should know by now that he's not a troll. You, on the other hand, are
testing the limits of the great forbearance shown to you, personally, by
the rest of this group. Please give it a rest.

I agree, this has been going on far to long, but those who raise
objections
clearly have never had to deal with this sort of pest, and many of the
suggestions as to how to deal with it are completly impractical.

Those 'completely impractical' suggestions are contained primarily in the
Forestry Commission Guidance Note on how to deal with Grey Squirrels, which,
from your remarks, you evidently can't have bothered to read.

Obviously, you have chosen to ignore all the information brought to your
attention which clearly establishes that killing mammals by drowning is not
prima facie regarded as a humane means of dispatch in this country. At
least, if you are eventually prosecuted for your actions, you won't be able
to claim no-one warned you about it.

On Thu, 19 May 2005 17:42:42 GMT, "Alan Holmes"
wrote:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:


And am I falling for it?

He's been posting to this group for years under the same name so you
should know by now that he's not a troll. You, on the other hand, are
testing the limits of the great forbearance shown to you, personally, by
the rest of this group. Please give it a rest.

I agree, this has been going on far to long, but those who raise objections
clearly have never had to deal with this sort of pest, and many of the
suggestions as to how to deal with it are completly impractical.

This will be my last word on the subject.

Do I hear lots of cheering!(:-)

BAC infamous! nah :-)