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In message , Nick Maclaren
writes In article , Victoria Clare writes: | | But some of them *probably* at some point came from garden centres or | specialist growers and originally had those scary 'do not propagate from me | or we will despatch our winged monkeys of death' messages on them. | | Is this a likely source of trouble? Would I be safer sticking to just | growing on seeds? If you aren't selling them as the named variety, no. An increasing proportion of those signs are bogus, but even the ones that do refer to genuine plant breeders' rights aren't likely to be enforced for unidentified plants at a charity sale. However, it isn't allowed in the latter case - though whether it applies to propagation by self-seeding is most unclear. Regards, Nick Maclaren. I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then they would have possibly crossed with something else and would no longer be pure to the 'protected' variety -- Sue Begg Remove my clothes to reply Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! |
#2
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In article , Sue Begg writes: | | I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then they | would have possibly crossed with something else and would no longer be | pure to the 'protected' variety It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers think. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
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In message , Nick Maclaren
writes In article , Sue Begg writes: | | I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then they | would have possibly crossed with something else and would no longer be | pure to the 'protected' variety It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers think. Regards, Nick Maclaren. There's probably a 'committee' involved there somewhere - and we know what sanity they produce :-)) -- Sue Begg Remove my clothes to reply Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! |
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Nick Maclaren wrote:
:: In article , :: Sue Begg writes: :::: :::: I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then :::: they would have possibly crossed with something else and would :::: no longer be pure to the 'protected' variety :: :: It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane :: person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers :: think. God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just another 'jobs for the boys' ruling like the ones where it's now illegal to replce a lightswitch in your house, or replace a pane of glass. - To the OP, do what you want, unless you are doing it on a grand scale (anything larger than supplying a couple of greengrocers for example) you won't get your collar felt. -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. |
#5
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Phil L wrote:
Nick Maclaren wrote: In article , Sue Begg writes: I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then they would have possibly crossed with something else and would no longer be pure to the 'protected' variety It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers think. God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just another 'jobs for the boys' ruling Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to stop altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys" is somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the result of years of experience and training. like the ones where it's now illegal to replce a lightswitch in your house, or replace a pane of glass. It is? OK, Officer, I surrender: you no doubt have a copy of the law for me or my representative to read. I smell straight bananas, wrapped (unhygienically and so perhaps illegally) in discarded pages of the Daily Mail. - To the OP, do what you want, unless you are doing it on a grand scale (anything larger than supplying a couple of greengrocers for example) you won't get your collar felt. That at least is almost right. Nobody's going to hassle you for a few plants from seed sold for a registered charity or even maybe a bit of beer money; flog rooted cuttings to a High-Street shop, and I begin to lose sympathy. -- Mike. |
#6
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In article ,
Mike Lyle wrote: Phil L wrote: God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just another 'jobs for the boys' ruling Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to stop altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys" is somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the result of years of experience and training. It requires neither to stick such a notice onto a variety that has been grown since time immemorial and, unfortunately, there is no law against such deception. I have seen such notices on varieties that I know were not covered by a valid Plant Breeders' Right. That is a consequence of a one-sided law. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#7
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Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , Mike Lyle wrote: Phil L wrote: God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just another 'jobs for the boys' ruling Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to stop altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys" is somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the result of years of experience and training. It requires neither to stick such a notice onto a variety that has been grown since time immemorial and, unfortunately, there is no law against such deception. I have seen such notices on varieties that I know were not covered by a valid Plant Breeders' Right. That is a consequence of a one-sided law. I did say "Well..." I don't want an American drug company stealing the rights to the neem tree any more than you do. There are limits, though. -- Mike. |
#8
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Mike Lyle wrote:
:: Phil L wrote: ::: Nick Maclaren wrote: ::::: In article , ::::: Sue Begg writes: ::::::: ::::::: I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding ::::::: then they would have possibly crossed with something else and ::::::: would no longer be pure to the 'protected' variety ::::: ::::: It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane ::::: person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers ::::: think. ::: ::: God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a ::: capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the ::: supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just ::: another 'jobs for the boys' ruling :: :: Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to :: stop altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys" is :: somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the :: result of years of experience and training. So? My dad was a painter and decorator but he didn't pay the government to pass a law stating that all DIY decorating should be banned. :: ::: like the ones where it's now ::: illegal to replce a lightswitch in your house, or replace a pane ::: of glass. :: :: It is? OK, Officer, I surrender: you no doubt have a copy of the :: law for me or my representative to read. I smell straight bananas, :: wrapped (unhygienically and so perhaps illegally) in discarded :: pages of the Daily Mail. You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...it's going the same way as plumbing....it's all safety and who can argue against that? - maybe decorators *will* get a law passed, based on the stupidity of the average person who thinks he can reach 'if I just stand on this box....' :: ::: - To the OP, do what you want, unless you are doing it on a grand ::: scale (anything larger than supplying a couple of greengrocers for ::: example) you won't get your collar felt. :: :: That at least is almost right. Nobody's going to hassle you for a :: few plants from seed sold for a registered charity or even maybe a :: bit of beer money; flog rooted cuttings to a High-Street shop, and :: I begin to lose sympathy. Why? - if I've had fuchsias growing for the past 20 years and decide to flog 12 dozen cuttings to the corner shop, what harm has been done? - his regular supplier has lost a few quid? -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. |
#9
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Phil L wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote: Phil L wrote: [...] I noticed a capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just another 'jobs for the boys' ruling Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to stop altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys" is somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the result of years of experience and training. So? My dad was a painter and decorator but he didn't pay the government to pass a law stating that all DIY decorating should be banned. You are certainly far too intelligent to imagine that I'm not intelligent enough to see why that's a load of dulux. So who is your target audience? like the ones where it's now illegal to replce a lightswitch in your house, or replace a pane of glass. It is? OK, Officer, I surrender: you no doubt have a copy of the law for me or my representative to read. I smell straight bananas, wrapped (unhygienically and so perhaps illegally) in discarded pages of the Daily Mail. You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass... Where? Since when? By whose rules? it's going the same way as plumbing....it's all safety and who can argue against that? - maybe decorators *will* get a law passed, based on the stupidity of the average person who thinks he can reach 'if I just stand on this box....' - To the OP, do what you want, unless you are doing it on a grand scale (anything larger than supplying a couple of greengrocers for example) you won't get your collar felt. That at least is almost right. Nobody's going to hassle you for a few plants from seed sold for a registered charity or even maybe a bit of beer money; flog rooted cuttings to a High-Street shop, and I begin to lose sympathy. Why? - if I've had fuchsias growing for the past 20 years and decide to flog 12 dozen cuttings to the corner shop, what harm has been done? - his regular supplier has lost a few quid? Again, if you follow urg you're surely far too intelligent to imagine that that is what plant breeders' rights are about. So why say it? -- Mike. |
#10
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Mike Lyle wrote:
:: Phil L wrote: ::: Mike Lyle wrote: ::::: Phil L wrote: ::: So? ::: My dad was a painter and decorator but he didn't pay the ::: government to pass a law stating that all DIY decorating should ::: be banned. :: :: You are certainly far too intelligent to imagine that I'm not :: intelligent enough to see why that's a load of dulux. So who is :: your target audience? :: I don't know what your talking about here - I'm saying that DIY is a free-for-all, whether it's decorating the lounge or taking cuttings from your neighbours plants. ::: You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and ::: be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass... :: :: Where? Since when? By whose rules? :: In the UK. since April 2002. Building regulations. http://www.fensa.co.uk/homeowners.html ::: ::: Why? - if I've had fuchsias growing for the past 20 years and ::: decide to flog 12 dozen cuttings to the corner shop, what harm ::: has been done? - his regular supplier has lost a few quid? :: :: Again, if you follow urg you're surely far too intelligent to :: imagine that that is what plant breeders' rights are about. So why :: say it? Err..I'm fairly new here and haven't got a clue what plant breeders rights are, if they are anything like songwriters' copyrights etc, then I don't think they have a leg to stand on, once something (whether it's Elton's new track or a brand new bloom) is out 'in the wilderness', it's a free-for-all again - you can't stop people from collecting seeds or taking cuttings so why try? -- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. |
#11
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On 9/5/05 20:59, in article ,
"Phil L" wrote: snip Why? - if I've had fuchsias growing for the past 20 years and decide to flog 12 dozen cuttings to the corner shop, what harm has been done? - his regular supplier has lost a few quid? After 20 years, you might be in the clear! But plants with Plants Breeders Rights on them are exactly like inventions with a patent on them. You must not produce copies (cuttings) of them. My husband has PBR on a couple of things and I can tell you that to the breeder some plants are worth a lot of money, depending on the demand and popularity. So, having done the work and paid for the PBR and the trials and everything else that has to be done, which can also cost a thousand or two, a plant breeder would have every right to stop you selling his plants for your gain. And these things *are* followed up to my certain knowledge. Now, all that said, nobody is going to go after anyone who takes a few cuttings to give to friends or sell at a charity stall - the rip off would have to be on a much larger scale than that. But your 144 fuchsias would take 144 royalty payments away from the original breeder and it is quite possible that the breeder would take a dim view of that if it became known. I know we certainly would. PBR is there to protect the interests of the person who has done all the work, used their time and their skill, spent their money, paid for the trials and licences, so effectively, you would be taking their money away from them. I knew the man who invented the Black & Decker workmate and some years ago he told me that never a month went by without his agent having to fight some case over others trying to rip them off with copies - as it is for large 'solid' objects, so it is for PBR plants. Just because they're plants and easier to copy (propagate) doesn't mean it isn't illegal to do so. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon (remove the weeds to email me) |
#12
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In article ,
Sacha wrote: But your 144 fuchsias would take 144 royalty payments away from the original breeder ... No, they wouldn't. Perhaps a dozen. That myth is quoted by the current entertainment monopolists, to try to deprive the public of rights. Note that I am not opposing PBRs in principle or most practice though, as I said, I have seen them abused. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#13
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Phil L wrote:
You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...it's going the same way as plumbing.... You don't, in most domestic cases. What about greenhouses? it's all safety and who can argue against that? There are lots of arguments against over- or inappropriate regulation. |
#14
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Phil L wrote: You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...it's going the same way as plumbing.... You don't need to be in anything to replace glass. But if you replace a whole window you either need FENSA or a building control application. |
#15
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"Phil L" wrote in message k... Nick Maclaren wrote: :: In article , :: Sue Begg writes: :::: :::: I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then :::: they would have possibly crossed with something else and would :::: no longer be pure to the 'protected' variety :: :: It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane :: person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers :: think. God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just another 'jobs for the boys' ruling like the ones where it's now illegal to replce a lightswitch in your house, or replace a pane of glass. It's not illegal to replace a light switch. The new rules on electrical work require the Local Authority's building control department to be told about most electrical work but NOT repairs, replacements and other maintenance work. Neither do they have to be told about the addition of extra power or lighting points or other alterations to existing circuits unless these are in a kitchen, bathroom or outside. This "you need an electrician to change a bulb" stuff is a myth! -- Neil Visit my Peak District walking website - www.peakwalking.co.uk |
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