Phil L wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
Phil L wrote:
[...]
I noticed a
capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the
supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just
another 'jobs for the boys' ruling

Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to
stop altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys"
is
somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the
result of years of experience and training.

So?
My dad was a painter and decorator but he didn't pay the government
to pass a law stating that all DIY decorating should be banned.

You are certainly far too intelligent to imagine that I'm not
intelligent enough to see why that's a load of dulux. So who is your
target audience?

like the ones where it's now
illegal to replce a lightswitch in your house, or replace a pane
of glass.

It is? OK, Officer, I surrender: you no doubt have a copy of the
law for me or my representative to read. I smell straight
bananas,
wrapped (unhygienically and so perhaps illegally) in discarded
pages of the Daily Mail.

You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and be
a
member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...

Where? Since when? By whose rules?

it's going the same way as
plumbing....it's all safety and who can argue against that? -
maybe
decorators *will* get a law passed, based on the stupidity of the
average person who thinks he can reach 'if I just stand on this
box....'


- To the OP, do what you want, unless you are doing it on a
grand
scale (anything larger than supplying a couple of greengrocers
for
example) you won't get your collar felt.

That at least is almost right. Nobody's going to hassle you for a
few plants from seed sold for a registered charity or even maybe
a
bit of beer money; flog rooted cuttings to a High-Street shop,
and
I begin to lose sympathy.

Why? - if I've had fuchsias growing for the past 20 years and
decide
to flog 12 dozen cuttings to the corner shop, what harm has been
done? - his regular supplier has lost a few quid?

Again, if you follow urg you're surely far too intelligent to imagine
that that is what plant breeders' rights are about. So why say it?

--
Mike.

Mike Lyle wrote:
:: Phil L wrote:
::: Mike Lyle wrote:
::::: Phil L wrote:

::: So?
::: My dad was a painter and decorator but he didn't pay the
::: government to pass a law stating that all DIY decorating should
::: be banned.
::
:: You are certainly far too intelligent to imagine that I'm not
:: intelligent enough to see why that's a load of dulux. So who is
:: your target audience?
::

I don't know what your talking about here - I'm saying that DIY is a
free-for-all, whether it's decorating the lounge or taking cuttings from
your neighbours plants.


::: You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and
::: be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...
::
:: Where? Since when? By whose rules?
::

In the UK. since April 2002. Building regulations.
http://www.fensa.co.uk/homeowners.html


:::
::: Why? - if I've had fuchsias growing for the past 20 years and
::: decide to flog 12 dozen cuttings to the corner shop, what harm
::: has been done? - his regular supplier has lost a few quid?
::
:: Again, if you follow urg you're surely far too intelligent to
:: imagine that that is what plant breeders' rights are about. So why
:: say it?

Err..I'm fairly new here and haven't got a clue what plant breeders rights
are, if they are anything like songwriters' copyrights etc, then I don't
think they have a leg to stand on, once something (whether it's Elton's new
track or a brand new bloom) is out 'in the wilderness', it's a free-for-all
again - you can't stop people from collecting seeds or taking cuttings so
why try?


--
If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.

Phil L wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and
be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...

Where? Since when? By whose rules?


In the UK. since April 2002. Building regulations.
http://www.fensa.co.uk/homeowners.html

Others have commented already, but here's my twopennnorth.

There's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site, and
I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being a member
of anything. What's involved here is _replacement installation_, not
repair. Replacement windows and doors have to meet new requirements,
that's all: and that's a very good thing. A sample from the site:

Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed to
repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved
Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).

And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all my
life, give or take a detail or two.

It seems the FENSA thing is just a hassle-saving measure you should
approve of: as I read it, some installers will be allowed to
self-certify instead of waiting for Building Control to come out and
check.

On music copyright, no, it isn't just a free-for-all: there are
rules, and everybody in the business knows them.

[...]

HTH,
--
Mike.

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
snip

there's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site, and
I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being a member
of anything. What's involved here is _replacement installation_, not
repair. Replacement windows and doors have to meet new requirements,
that's all: and that's a very good thing. A sample from the site:

Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed to
repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved
Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).

And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all my
life, give or take a detail or two.


Whats the site? I've just replaced a number of internal doors, would be
interesting to see what regs apply to a door! I wonder if a door purchased
from a DIY store would anyway meet the regs? And how would someone buying my
house in say 5 years time know if they had been replaced/met the regs?

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Tumbleweed wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
snip

there's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site,
and
I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being a
member
of anything. What's involved here is _replacement installation_,
not
repair. Replacement windows and doors have to meet new
requirements,
that's all: and that's a very good thing. A sample from the site:

Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed
to
repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved
Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).

And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all my
life, give or take a detail or two.


Whats the site? I've just replaced a number of internal doors,
would
be interesting to see what regs apply to a door! I wonder if a
door
purchased from a DIY store would anyway meet the regs? And how
would
someone buying my house in say 5 years time know if they had been
replaced/met the regs?

The site is:
http://www.fensa.co.uk/faq.html#1

I can't imagine what relevance it might have to _interior_ doors.
Well, I suppose there must be something to stop idiots using ordinary
glass at child height in interior doors, but you wouldn't have done
that.

I don't know when you last sold a house, but these days purchasers'
surveyors are extremely picky and own-arse-covering (I bear the
psychological scars a year later!) It helps a lot if you've got
evidence of Building Regs approval, too; a certificate from a FENSA
member is apparently equivalent.

--
Mike.

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Tumbleweed wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
snip

there's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site,
and
I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being a
member
of anything. What's involved here is _replacement installation_,
not
repair. Replacement windows and doors have to meet new
requirements,
that's all: and that's a very good thing. A sample from the site:

Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed
to
repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved
Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).

And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all my
life, give or take a detail or two.


Whats the site? I've just replaced a number of internal doors,
would
be interesting to see what regs apply to a door! I wonder if a
door
purchased from a DIY store would anyway meet the regs? And how
would
someone buying my house in say 5 years time know if they had been
replaced/met the regs?

The site is:
http://www.fensa.co.uk/faq.html#1

I can't imagine what relevance it might have to _interior_ doors.
Well, I suppose there must be something to stop idiots using ordinary
glass at child height in interior doors, but you wouldn't have done
that.

I don't know when you last sold a house, but these days purchasers'
surveyors are extremely picky and own-arse-covering (I bear the
psychological scars a year later!) It helps a lot if you've got
evidence of Building Regs approval, too; a certificate from a FENSA
member is apparently equivalent.

But in an old house how would anyone know if the fittings were not
original, and who would keep builders bills from 20 or 30 years ago?

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

Alan Holmes wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in [...]
I can't imagine what relevance it might have to _interior_ doors.
Well, I suppose there must be something to stop idiots using
ordinary
glass at child height in interior doors, but you wouldn't have
done
that.

I don't know when you last sold a house, but these days
purchasers'
surveyors are extremely picky and own-arse-covering (I bear the
psychological scars a year later!) It helps a lot if you've got
evidence of Building Regs approval, too; a certificate from a
FENSA
member is apparently equivalent.

But in an old house how would anyone know if the fittings were not
original, and who would keep builders bills from 20 or 30 years
ago?

Well, I suppose a professional surveyor could sometimes tell, and
sometimes not tell -- I quite strongly suspect he'd get it right more
often than not (in a really old house it would usually be obvious to
anybody, of course). It's not so much the builder's bills as the
Building Regs evidence; but it would be rash to not to keep the
bills, as you might want to make a claim.

But having just sold a partly-new and partly-old house under the new
rules, I very strongly urge everybody to take these things seriously.
I lost my first potential purchaser because of an over-cautious
surveyor's report: thank Heaven, the next offer came from people
whose surveyor expressed himself differently though describing the
same things.

--
Mike.

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Tumbleweed wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
snip

there's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site,
and
I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being a
member
of anything. What's involved here is _replacement installation_,
not
repair. Replacement windows and doors have to meet new
requirements,
that's all: and that's a very good thing. A sample from the site:

Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed
to
repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved
Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).

And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all my
life, give or take a detail or two.


Whats the site? I've just replaced a number of internal doors,
would
be interesting to see what regs apply to a door! I wonder if a
door
purchased from a DIY store would anyway meet the regs? And how
would
someone buying my house in say 5 years time know if they had been
replaced/met the regs?

The site is:
http://www.fensa.co.uk/faq.html#1

I can't imagine what relevance it might have to _interior_ doors.
Well, I suppose there must be something to stop idiots using ordinary
glass at child height in interior doors, but you wouldn't have done
that.

I don't know when you last sold a house, but these days purchasers'
surveyors are extremely picky and own-arse-covering (I bear the
psychological scars a year later!) It helps a lot if you've got
evidence of Building Regs approval, too; a certificate from a FENSA
member is apparently equivalent.

But in an old house how would anyone know if the fittings were not
original, and who would keep builders bills from 20 or 30 years ago?

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

Mike Lyle wrote:
:: Phil L wrote:
::: Mike Lyle wrote:
:: [...]
:::::: You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work
:::::: and be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...
:::::
::::: Where? Since when? By whose rules?
:::::
:::
::: In the UK. since April 2002. Building regulations.
::: http://www.fensa.co.uk/homeowners.html
::
:: Others have commented already, but here's my twopennnorth.
::
:: There's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site,
:: and I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being a
:: member of anything. What's involved here is _replacement
:: installation_, not repair. Replacement windows and doors have to
:: meet new requirements, that's all: and that's a very good thing. A
:: sample from the site:
::
:: Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed
:: to repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved
:: Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).
::

It's not just replacement windows (IE frames) it's glazing in general, the
actual frames are never going to fall out and kill someone, but if you
install ordinary glass (as opposed to toughened) below a certain height and
someone falls into it and cuts themselves or worse, you can go to jail,
unless of course you are a member of FENSA, pretty much like the members of
CORGI, they are covered, both insurance wise and from those above who carry
out 'investigations'.


:: And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
:: work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all my
:: life, give or take a detail or two.
::
:: It seems the FENSA thing is just a hassle-saving measure you should
:: approve of: as I read it, some installers will be allowed to
:: self-certify instead of waiting for Building Control to come out
:: and check.

What I'm saying is that these pieces of legislation are in place for no
other reason than to line the pockets of those who pushed to get them
introduced.


::
:: On music copyright, no, it isn't just a free-for-all: there are
:: rules, and everybody in the business knows them.
::

But the general public just download whatever music they like without fear
of the law.


--
If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.

Phil L wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
Phil L wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work
and be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...

Where? Since when? By whose rules?


In the UK. since April 2002. Building regulations.
http://www.fensa.co.uk/homeowners.html

Others have commented already, but here's my twopennnorth.

There's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site,
and I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being
a
member of anything. What's involved here is _replacement
installation_, not repair. Replacement windows and doors have to
meet new requirements, that's all: and that's a very good thing.
A
sample from the site:

Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed
to repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with
Approved
Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).


It's not just replacement windows (IE frames) it's glazing in
general, the actual frames are never going to fall out and kill
someone, but if you install ordinary glass (as opposed to
toughened)
below a certain height and someone falls into it and cuts
themselves
or worse, you can go to jail, unless of course you are a member of
FENSA, pretty much like the members of CORGI, they are covered,
both
insurance wise and from those above who carry out 'investigations'.

Sorry: didn't see this before posting my last. No, I can't
necessarily go to jail for it: nobody mentioned the criminal law. I
can be sued, of course, and serve me right; but that costs money, not
liberty.


And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all
my
life, give or take a detail or two.

It seems the FENSA thing is just a hassle-saving measure you
should
approve of: as I read it, some installers will be allowed to
self-certify instead of waiting for Building Control to come out
and check.

What I'm saying is that these pieces of legislation are in place
for
no other reason than to line the pockets of those who pushed to get
them introduced.

I see no pocket-lining mechanism here. If anything, it may be a
tax-saving measure by reducing the need for building inspectors; so I
suppose it lines your pockets and mine a little bit.

On music copyright, no, it isn't just a free-for-all: there are
rules, and everybody in the business knows them.


But the general public just download whatever music they like
without
fear of the law.

No doubt, and the industry doesn't like it. But start selling pirate
discs on a market stall, and things may get more exciting.

--
Mike.