Is there a simple way of stopping ants invading the apple trees.

I bought some grease band which is a kind of sticky tape that you wrap
around the trunk (with the sticky facing outwards).

However this is tricky to fit so the ants can't just crawl under it. They
also seem to be able to cross it, even if it is very slowly.

Is there some sort of sticky paste that I can just paint directly onto the
trunk, or something homemade?

Any ideas?

Thanks

Helen

In article ,
"Helen Hartley" writes:
| Is there a simple way of stopping ants invading the apple trees.

No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.

| I bought some grease band which is a kind of sticky tape that you wrap
| around the trunk (with the sticky facing outwards).
|
| However this is tricky to fit so the ants can't just crawl under it. They
| also seem to be able to cross it, even if it is very slowly.
|
| Is there some sort of sticky paste that I can just paint directly onto the
| trunk, or something homemade?

Ordinary axle grease works fine. The stuff you buy in tins for
machinery.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.

I would disagree. The ants themselves to no harm but from my own
observations, they do actively deter helpful predators such as ladybirds
from removing the aphids resulting in a heavily infested tree.

Paul DS.

In article ,
"Paul D.Smith" writes:
|
| No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
| honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
| wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
| effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
| fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.
|
| I would disagree. The ants themselves to no harm but from my own
| observations, they do actively deter helpful predators such as ladybirds
| from removing the aphids resulting in a heavily infested tree.

Do you have any evidence for that statement? Observations of
apparent conflict is no evidence of anything much. Your claim
is made by many people, but seems to be based entirely on
prejudice (i.e. judging the issue before obtaining evidence).
Specifically:

1) What evidence do you have that they actually deter helpful
predators such as ladybirds (i.e. reduce their numbers or effect
over what would have been the case without the ants)?

2) What evidence do you have that their actions result in a
heavily infested tree, rather than the heavy infestation being
the cause of the ant invasion?

Please note that I am perfectly happy to accept any form of real
evidence as such: a controlled experiment, a statistical analysis
or anything else reasonable.

I have done some analyses of aphids and ants, in my garden and
elsewhere, and have concluded that they have not had any causal
effect in the cases I analysed.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

| I would disagree. The ants themselves to no harm but from my own
| observations,

Your claim is made by many people, but seems to be based entirely on
prejudice ....

... seems to be based on his observations.
--
Tim C.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:16:25 +0100, "Paul D.Smith"
wrote:

No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.

I would disagree. The ants themselves to no harm but from my own
observations, they do actively deter helpful predators such as ladybirds
from removing the aphids resulting in a heavily infested tree.

There's been some debate on this one befo

The two threads starting with the following posts might prove
interesting:

Message-ID:


Message-ID:

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

Nick Maclaren wrote or quoted:
In article ,
"Helen Hartley" writes:

| Is there a simple way of stopping ants invading the apple trees.

No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.

Ants are the aphids' friends - and you know what they say about the
friends of your enemies:

``And ants directly defend the aphids from predators, the
aphids having lost their own defenses as domesticated
animals often do. The ants' success in protecting their
flocks is attested in the lengths that green lacewing larvae
(Chrysopa glossonae) go to sneak past ant defenders to catch
woolly alder aphids (Prociphilus tesselatus). Hälldobler and
Wilson wrote, "The aphids derive their common name from
filaments of waxy "wool" that cover their bodies. The
[lacewing] larvae disguise themselves by "plucking" some of
this material from the bodies of the aphids and applying it
to their own backs. In other words, they employ the "wolf-
in-sheep's–clothing" strategy to fool the ant shepherds that
guard the aphids."

An extreme example cited in The Ants is that of the American
corn-root aphid (Aphis maidiradicis) and an ant (Lasius
neoniger). Colonies of this ant keep the aphids' eggs in
their nests over the winter, and, when the eggs hatch into
nymphs in the spring, carry them to the roots of the aphids'
food plants. If the plants are uprooted, the ants retrieve
the aphids and tote them to another food plant. The ants
also repel potential predators and parasites from their
aphid flocks and, similarly, the ants treat the aphid eggs
as their own, by, for instance, carrying them to safety when
the nest is disturbed. [...]''

- http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publicatio...antfarmers.cfm
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ Remove lock to reply.

In article , Tim Tyler wrote:

Ants are the aphids' friends - and you know what they say about the
friends of your enemies:

Sigh. Do you have any REAL evidence for that - in the UK?

``And ants directly defend the aphids from predators, the
aphids having lost their own defenses as domesticated
animals often do. The ants' success in protecting their
flocks is attested in the lengths that green lacewing larvae
(Chrysopa glossonae) go to sneak past ant defenders to catch
woolly alder aphids (Prociphilus tesselatus). ...

An extreme example cited in The Ants is that of the American
corn-root aphid (Aphis maidiradicis) and an ant (Lasius
neoniger). Colonies of this ant keep the aphids' eggs in
their nests over the winter, ...

- http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publicatio...antfarmers.cfm

All that refers to North America. While we may be a vassal state
of the USA, that does not mean that we have a subset of its ecology.

Yes, I know perfectly well that the phenomenon occurs in the tropics,
and occasionally in the temperate zones. Even there, I doubt that
"ants are the aphids' friends", because it is probably that there
is more ant predation on aphids than ant protection of them. But,
whatever the situation, it is irrelevant to the UK.

To the best of my knowledge, there has been NO serious research on
whether ants EVER (a) cause or (b) enhance aphid attacks in the UK.
My crude investigations indicate that it is at least much less
likely than most people believe, and possibly doesn't occur. But
they were very crude.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote or quoted:
In article , Tim Tyler wrote:

Ants are the aphids' friends - and you know what they say about the
friends of your enemies:

Sigh. Do you have any REAL evidence for that - in the UK?

``And ants directly defend the aphids from predators, the
aphids having lost their own defenses as domesticated
animals often do. The ants' success in protecting their
flocks is attested in the lengths that green lacewing larvae
(Chrysopa glossonae) go to sneak past ant defenders to catch
woolly alder aphids (Prociphilus tesselatus). ...

An extreme example cited in The Ants is that of the American
corn-root aphid (Aphis maidiradicis) and an ant (Lasius
neoniger). Colonies of this ant keep the aphids' eggs in
their nests over the winter, ...

- http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publicatio...antfarmers.cfm

All that refers to North America. While we may be a vassal state
of the USA, that does not mean that we have a subset of its ecology.

Yes, I know perfectly well that the phenomenon occurs in the tropics,
and occasionally in the temperate zones. Even there, I doubt that
"ants are the aphids' friends", because it is probably that there
is more ant predation on aphids than ant protection of them. [...]

AFAICS, that doesn't seem to make sense :-(

IMO, the ants are *farming* the aphids - in similar ways all over the
world.

Just because the ants eat the aphids, that doesn't mean the aphids are
/not/ being farmed. You might just as well argue that humans are not
farming pigs because people have been observed to eat bacon.

But, whatever the situation, it is irrelevant to the UK.

To the best of my knowledge, there has been NO serious research on
whether ants EVER (a) cause or (b) enhance aphid attacks in the UK.

The size of the UK makes it harder to find research on the ant-aphid
symbiosis which is demonstrably applicable. However:

Here's a UK paper showing that the ants are defending the aphids:

``Soldiers effectively defend aphid colonies against predators in the field''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=9514674

....and here's a UK paper showing aphids produced more soldiers when ants
were not in attendance - which strongly suggests the ants were protecting
the aphids:

``Ant tending influences soldier production in a social aphid''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=11052537

How I interpret what I see in my garden is ants farming aphids, by
protecting them, raising them, carrying them up to the tops of plants,
and using them as a technological tool to attack the plants, and steal
their juices - both by sucking the honeydew, and by eating the
resulting plump and juicy aphids.

I fully expect the ant-aphid symbiosis to be global in extent and ancient
in origin.

That doesn't /necessarily/ mean that the ants have an overall negative
influence on the plants the aphids prey on. The ants depend on keeping
the plants alive as well, and their farming may conceivably have
beneficial effects on the plants - as well as on the aphids that
feed on them - perhaps by deterring other predators.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ Remove lock to reply.

In article , Tim Tyler wrote:

Yes, I know perfectly well that the phenomenon occurs in the tropics,
and occasionally in the temperate zones. Even there, I doubt that
"ants are the aphids' friends", because it is probably that there
is more ant predation on aphids than ant protection of them. [...]

AFAICS, that doesn't seem to make sense :-(

Are you serious? Why on earth do you imagine that this particular
ecological association is constant over the whole earth, when no
other one is?

IMO, the ants are *farming* the aphids - in similar ways all over the
world.

Well, you are simply wrong. See any respectable book on entomology.
Michael Chinery "Insects", for example.

Just because the ants eat the aphids, that doesn't mean the aphids are
/not/ being farmed. You might just as well argue that humans are not
farming pigs because people have been observed to eat bacon.

No, it doesn't. But, as far as every reference that I have seen has
said, 'farming' ants are either absent from the UK or EXTREMELY rare,
and even ones that actively 'herd' aphids are not common.

The size of the UK makes it harder to find research on the ant-aphid
symbiosis which is demonstrably applicable.

Would you like to explain that? We have one of the largest and most
effective biological research communities in the world, an ecology
that supports God knows how many ants (but of only a few species),
and hundreds of species of aphids, many of economic importance
(thus meaning that a LOT of research has been done on them).

Here's a UK paper showing that the ants are defending the aphids:

``Soldiers effectively defend aphid colonies against predators in the field''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=9514674

At LAST! All right, that is evidence. More for my point than yours,
but it does include some evidence that at least one ant does protect
at least one aphid in the UK.

Of course, the family of aphids is a minor one in the UK and is not
the family that causes 95% of trouble to farmers and gardeners, and
the abstract says:

These observations provide the first demonstration that soldiers
are effective in defence against natural levels of predation under
field conditions.

Given the relative importance of the families, how much research do
you think will have found no evidence for this effect? Pemphigus
spyrothecae is an aphid that causes galls on poplar trees - NOT
something that is of any economic consequence. As I understand it,
the only relevant aphid in the UK in the Pemphigidae is woolly aphid
of apple trees, which is rarely even visited by ants in my experience.
Almost all of the problem ones are in the Aphididae.

...and here's a UK paper showing aphids produced more soldiers when ants
were not in attendance - which strongly suggests the ants were protecting
the aphids:

``Ant tending influences soldier production in a social aphid''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=11052537

I wasn't aware that there was a significant amount of either ginger
or storax either farmed or naturalised in the UK. The fact that the
authors are British doesn't mean that the ants are.

How I interpret what I see in my garden is ants farming aphids, by
protecting them, raising them, carrying them up to the tops of plants,
and using them as a technological tool to attack the plants, and steal
their juices - both by sucking the honeydew, and by eating the
resulting plump and juicy aphids.

I know you do. And I am pointing out that your interpretation is
prejudice, because you are using your observations to justify your
beliefs and not to check up on them. The evidence is all against
your interpretation being correct.

I fully expect the ant-aphid symbiosis to be global in extent and ancient
in origin.

Doubtless. The former is known to be not the case, however. See
above.

That doesn't /necessarily/ mean that the ants have an overall negative
influence on the plants the aphids prey on. The ants depend on keeping
the plants alive as well, and their farming may conceivably have
beneficial effects on the plants - as well as on the aphids that
feed on them - perhaps by deterring other predators.

That is one possibility.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

An anecdote:

Today I found four large black aphids on the very top of a metre high
passion flower plant which I had moved into the garden - from my nursery -
a few days previously.

I photographed the plant - and have indicated the aphid location with
a red arrow:

http://timtyler.freeshell.org/temp/a...ion_flower.jpg

The rest of the plant was entirely free of aphids - though there
were other similar-looking aphids on the nasturtium in the foreground.

The four aphids were being attended by two ants. I removed the
insects from the plant with my fingers.

My theory about how the aphids arrived at that spot is that the aphids
were carried a metre up into the air by ants - and placed on the plant's
most tender growth area by them.

Possibly this act was performed by the same two ants I found in
attendance.

If this theory is correct it may be possible to observe the transportation
act in progress - with a bit of luck. I'll keep an eye out for this
event. It seems it may be possible to catch the ants in action.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ Remove lock to reply.

Tim Tyler wrote or quoted:

http://timtyler.freeshell.org/temp/a...ion_flower.jpg

[...]

My theory about how the aphids arrived at that spot is that the aphids
were carried a metre up into the air by ants - and placed on the plant's
most tender growth area by them.

Possibly this act was performed by the same two ants I found in
attendance.

If this theory is correct it may be possible to observe the transportation
act in progress - with a bit of luck. I'll keep an eye out for this
event. It seems it may be possible to catch the ants in action.

The event seems too infrequent for me to stand much chance of observing
it :-(

I did some aphid speed tests, though - and was impressed with the
speeds the aphids could manage when stressed - the aphids I saw could
easily have reached the top of the plant under their own steam.

Another possibly-ant-implicated phenomenon I've observed is "leaf-tents"
at the tops of currant bushes. These do not look like a simple side
effect of aphid attack - and look *exactly* as though they are "designed"
to provide UV protection - and heat shade - for the aphids underneath.

I presume these are mainly created by attacking the backs of the leaves,
causing them to curl - and aphids are significantly better placed to
perform such attacks than the attending ants are. However, the leaf
tents appear to have a significant degree of sophistication - and I
suspect that the ants may have had a guiding hand in their creation.

A literature search might help identify whether such a phenomenon has
ever been linked to the presence of ants.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ Remove lock to reply.