Is there a simple way of stopping ants invading the apple trees.

I bought some grease band which is a kind of sticky tape that you wrap
around the trunk (with the sticky facing outwards).

However this is tricky to fit so the ants can't just crawl under it. They
also seem to be able to cross it, even if it is very slowly.

Is there some sort of sticky paste that I can just paint directly onto the
trunk, or something homemade?

Any ideas?

Thanks

Helen

In article ,
"Helen Hartley" writes:
| Is there a simple way of stopping ants invading the apple trees.

No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.

| I bought some grease band which is a kind of sticky tape that you wrap
| around the trunk (with the sticky facing outwards).
|
| However this is tricky to fit so the ants can't just crawl under it. They
| also seem to be able to cross it, even if it is very slowly.
|
| Is there some sort of sticky paste that I can just paint directly onto the
| trunk, or something homemade?

Ordinary axle grease works fine. The stuff you buy in tins for
machinery.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.

I would disagree. The ants themselves to no harm but from my own
observations, they do actively deter helpful predators such as ladybirds
from removing the aphids resulting in a heavily infested tree.

Paul DS.

In article ,
"Paul D.Smith" writes:
|
| No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
| honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
| wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
| effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
| fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.
|
| I would disagree. The ants themselves to no harm but from my own
| observations, they do actively deter helpful predators such as ladybirds
| from removing the aphids resulting in a heavily infested tree.

Do you have any evidence for that statement? Observations of
apparent conflict is no evidence of anything much. Your claim
is made by many people, but seems to be based entirely on
prejudice (i.e. judging the issue before obtaining evidence).
Specifically:

1) What evidence do you have that they actually deter helpful
predators such as ladybirds (i.e. reduce their numbers or effect
over what would have been the case without the ants)?

2) What evidence do you have that their actions result in a
heavily infested tree, rather than the heavy infestation being
the cause of the ant invasion?

Please note that I am perfectly happy to accept any form of real
evidence as such: a controlled experiment, a statistical analysis
or anything else reasonable.

I have done some analyses of aphids and ants, in my garden and
elsewhere, and have concluded that they have not had any causal
effect in the cases I analysed.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

| I would disagree. The ants themselves to no harm but from my own
| observations,

Your claim is made by many people, but seems to be based entirely on
prejudice ....

... seems to be based on his observations.
--
Tim C.

In article ,
martin writes:
| On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:29:45 +0200, Tim Challenger
| wrote:
|
| | I would disagree. The ants themselves to no harm but from my own
| | observations,
|
| Your claim is made by many people, but seems to be based entirely on
| prejudice ....
|
| ... seems to be based on his observations.
|
| and perhaps the observations of "many people".

Not ONE of whom has EVER provided any reason to believe that
their observations justify the conclusion. This is what the word
"prejudice" means, what I meant, and what I attempted to clarify
pointing out the meaning - to restore it, "i.e. judging the issue
before obtaining evidence".

Observations are not evidence. Observations backed up by analysis
can be evidence. HOWEVER, every single one of the ant-agonists
I have ever seen post that claim as a fact has used the following
chain of thought:

I believe that ants deter ladybirds etc. which enhance aphid
infestations.

I believe that ants transfer aphids to cause infestations.

I have observed a strong (and not denied) association between
ants and aphid infestations.

I have observed apparent conflict between ants and ladybirds
(which I have not seen reported as anything more than apparent
conflict).

I have observed ants carrying aphids.

This is all compatible with my beliefs, therefore my beliefs
are true.

That is prejudice.

I have enquired many times in many forums, and have so far not seen
any admissible evidence that ants enhance aphid infestations, let
alone cause them. I haven't even asked for CONVINCING evidence,
merely ADMISSIBLE evidence, but have so far not been shown any.
Dammit, the evidence for Saddam's control of WMD is STILL better
than the evidence for ants doing the above!

I have provided some admissible, if rather inconclusive, evidence
that ants rarely do what is claimed.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:16:25 +0100, "Paul D.Smith"
wrote:

No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.

I would disagree. The ants themselves to no harm but from my own
observations, they do actively deter helpful predators such as ladybirds
from removing the aphids resulting in a heavily infested tree.

There's been some debate on this one befo

The two threads starting with the following posts might prove
interesting:

Message-ID:


Message-ID:

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

Nick Maclaren wrote or quoted:
In article ,
"Helen Hartley" writes:

| Is there a simple way of stopping ants invading the apple trees.

No, but why do you want to? All they are doing is collecting the
honeydew from sap-sucking insects. Despite the tales of the old
wives, there is no evidence that the ants do any harm - there is
effectively NO evidence that they encourage infestations, and a
fair amount that they are completely irrelevant.

Ants are the aphids' friends - and you know what they say about the
friends of your enemies:

``And ants directly defend the aphids from predators, the
aphids having lost their own defenses as domesticated
animals often do. The ants' success in protecting their
flocks is attested in the lengths that green lacewing larvae
(Chrysopa glossonae) go to sneak past ant defenders to catch
woolly alder aphids (Prociphilus tesselatus). Hälldobler and
Wilson wrote, "The aphids derive their common name from
filaments of waxy "wool" that cover their bodies. The
[lacewing] larvae disguise themselves by "plucking" some of
this material from the bodies of the aphids and applying it
to their own backs. In other words, they employ the "wolf-
in-sheep's–clothing" strategy to fool the ant shepherds that
guard the aphids."

An extreme example cited in The Ants is that of the American
corn-root aphid (Aphis maidiradicis) and an ant (Lasius
neoniger). Colonies of this ant keep the aphids' eggs in
their nests over the winter, and, when the eggs hatch into
nymphs in the spring, carry them to the roots of the aphids'
food plants. If the plants are uprooted, the ants retrieve
the aphids and tote them to another food plant. The ants
also repel potential predators and parasites from their
aphid flocks and, similarly, the ants treat the aphid eggs
as their own, by, for instance, carrying them to safety when
the nest is disturbed. [...]''

- http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publicatio...antfarmers.cfm
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ Remove lock to reply.

In article , Tim Tyler wrote:

Ants are the aphids' friends - and you know what they say about the
friends of your enemies:

Sigh. Do you have any REAL evidence for that - in the UK?

``And ants directly defend the aphids from predators, the
aphids having lost their own defenses as domesticated
animals often do. The ants' success in protecting their
flocks is attested in the lengths that green lacewing larvae
(Chrysopa glossonae) go to sneak past ant defenders to catch
woolly alder aphids (Prociphilus tesselatus). ...

An extreme example cited in The Ants is that of the American
corn-root aphid (Aphis maidiradicis) and an ant (Lasius
neoniger). Colonies of this ant keep the aphids' eggs in
their nests over the winter, ...

- http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publicatio...antfarmers.cfm

All that refers to North America. While we may be a vassal state
of the USA, that does not mean that we have a subset of its ecology.

Yes, I know perfectly well that the phenomenon occurs in the tropics,
and occasionally in the temperate zones. Even there, I doubt that
"ants are the aphids' friends", because it is probably that there
is more ant predation on aphids than ant protection of them. But,
whatever the situation, it is irrelevant to the UK.

To the best of my knowledge, there has been NO serious research on
whether ants EVER (a) cause or (b) enhance aphid attacks in the UK.
My crude investigations indicate that it is at least much less
likely than most people believe, and possibly doesn't occur. But
they were very crude.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote or quoted:
In article , Tim Tyler wrote:

Ants are the aphids' friends - and you know what they say about the
friends of your enemies:

Sigh. Do you have any REAL evidence for that - in the UK?

``And ants directly defend the aphids from predators, the
aphids having lost their own defenses as domesticated
animals often do. The ants' success in protecting their
flocks is attested in the lengths that green lacewing larvae
(Chrysopa glossonae) go to sneak past ant defenders to catch
woolly alder aphids (Prociphilus tesselatus). ...

An extreme example cited in The Ants is that of the American
corn-root aphid (Aphis maidiradicis) and an ant (Lasius
neoniger). Colonies of this ant keep the aphids' eggs in
their nests over the winter, ...

- http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publicatio...antfarmers.cfm

All that refers to North America. While we may be a vassal state
of the USA, that does not mean that we have a subset of its ecology.

Yes, I know perfectly well that the phenomenon occurs in the tropics,
and occasionally in the temperate zones. Even there, I doubt that
"ants are the aphids' friends", because it is probably that there
is more ant predation on aphids than ant protection of them. [...]

AFAICS, that doesn't seem to make sense :-(

IMO, the ants are *farming* the aphids - in similar ways all over the
world.

Just because the ants eat the aphids, that doesn't mean the aphids are
/not/ being farmed. You might just as well argue that humans are not
farming pigs because people have been observed to eat bacon.

But, whatever the situation, it is irrelevant to the UK.

To the best of my knowledge, there has been NO serious research on
whether ants EVER (a) cause or (b) enhance aphid attacks in the UK.

The size of the UK makes it harder to find research on the ant-aphid
symbiosis which is demonstrably applicable. However:

Here's a UK paper showing that the ants are defending the aphids:

``Soldiers effectively defend aphid colonies against predators in the field''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=9514674

....and here's a UK paper showing aphids produced more soldiers when ants
were not in attendance - which strongly suggests the ants were protecting
the aphids:

``Ant tending influences soldier production in a social aphid''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=11052537

How I interpret what I see in my garden is ants farming aphids, by
protecting them, raising them, carrying them up to the tops of plants,
and using them as a technological tool to attack the plants, and steal
their juices - both by sucking the honeydew, and by eating the
resulting plump and juicy aphids.

I fully expect the ant-aphid symbiosis to be global in extent and ancient
in origin.

That doesn't /necessarily/ mean that the ants have an overall negative
influence on the plants the aphids prey on. The ants depend on keeping
the plants alive as well, and their farming may conceivably have
beneficial effects on the plants - as well as on the aphids that
feed on them - perhaps by deterring other predators.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ Remove lock to reply.

In article , Tim Tyler wrote:

Yes, I know perfectly well that the phenomenon occurs in the tropics,
and occasionally in the temperate zones. Even there, I doubt that
"ants are the aphids' friends", because it is probably that there
is more ant predation on aphids than ant protection of them. [...]

AFAICS, that doesn't seem to make sense :-(

Are you serious? Why on earth do you imagine that this particular
ecological association is constant over the whole earth, when no
other one is?

IMO, the ants are *farming* the aphids - in similar ways all over the
world.

Well, you are simply wrong. See any respectable book on entomology.
Michael Chinery "Insects", for example.

Just because the ants eat the aphids, that doesn't mean the aphids are
/not/ being farmed. You might just as well argue that humans are not
farming pigs because people have been observed to eat bacon.

No, it doesn't. But, as far as every reference that I have seen has
said, 'farming' ants are either absent from the UK or EXTREMELY rare,
and even ones that actively 'herd' aphids are not common.

The size of the UK makes it harder to find research on the ant-aphid
symbiosis which is demonstrably applicable.

Would you like to explain that? We have one of the largest and most
effective biological research communities in the world, an ecology
that supports God knows how many ants (but of only a few species),
and hundreds of species of aphids, many of economic importance
(thus meaning that a LOT of research has been done on them).

Here's a UK paper showing that the ants are defending the aphids:

``Soldiers effectively defend aphid colonies against predators in the field''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=9514674

At LAST! All right, that is evidence. More for my point than yours,
but it does include some evidence that at least one ant does protect
at least one aphid in the UK.

Of course, the family of aphids is a minor one in the UK and is not
the family that causes 95% of trouble to farmers and gardeners, and
the abstract says:

These observations provide the first demonstration that soldiers
are effective in defence against natural levels of predation under
field conditions.

Given the relative importance of the families, how much research do
you think will have found no evidence for this effect? Pemphigus
spyrothecae is an aphid that causes galls on poplar trees - NOT
something that is of any economic consequence. As I understand it,
the only relevant aphid in the UK in the Pemphigidae is woolly aphid
of apple trees, which is rarely even visited by ants in my experience.
Almost all of the problem ones are in the Aphididae.

...and here's a UK paper showing aphids produced more soldiers when ants
were not in attendance - which strongly suggests the ants were protecting
the aphids:

``Ant tending influences soldier production in a social aphid''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=11052537

I wasn't aware that there was a significant amount of either ginger
or storax either farmed or naturalised in the UK. The fact that the
authors are British doesn't mean that the ants are.

How I interpret what I see in my garden is ants farming aphids, by
protecting them, raising them, carrying them up to the tops of plants,
and using them as a technological tool to attack the plants, and steal
their juices - both by sucking the honeydew, and by eating the
resulting plump and juicy aphids.

I know you do. And I am pointing out that your interpretation is
prejudice, because you are using your observations to justify your
beliefs and not to check up on them. The evidence is all against
your interpretation being correct.

I fully expect the ant-aphid symbiosis to be global in extent and ancient
in origin.

Doubtless. The former is known to be not the case, however. See
above.

That doesn't /necessarily/ mean that the ants have an overall negative
influence on the plants the aphids prey on. The ants depend on keeping
the plants alive as well, and their farming may conceivably have
beneficial effects on the plants - as well as on the aphids that
feed on them - perhaps by deterring other predators.

That is one possibility.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote or quoted:
In article , Tim Tyler wrote:

Yes, I know perfectly well that the phenomenon occurs in the tropics,
and occasionally in the temperate zones. Even there, I doubt that
"ants are the aphids' friends", because it is probably that there
is more ant predation on aphids than ant protection of them. [...]

AFAICS, that doesn't seem to make sense :-(

Are you serious? Why on earth do you imagine that this particular
ecological association is constant over the whole earth, when no
other one is?

What didn't make sense was the idea that - because orgainisms of
one species eat organisms from another one, the two species are
not in a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship.

Humans eat lettuces. However humans and lettuces are in a
mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship. The lettuce evolves
to be better and tastier food - since *despite* the fact that
tasty lettuces get eaten, their equally tasty sisters get
deliberately cultivated to provide seed for the next season.

IMO, the ants are *farming* the aphids - in similar ways all over the
world.

Well, you are simply wrong. See any respectable book on entomology.
Michael Chinery "Insects", for example.

What are you claiming here? That there are differences in the ways that
ants farm aphids in different locations? Just because there are
similarities, that doesn't exculde the possibility of there also
being differences. I stand by my statement.

Just because the ants eat the aphids, that doesn't mean the aphids are
/not/ being farmed. You might just as well argue that humans are not
farming pigs because people have been observed to eat bacon.

No, it doesn't. But, as far as every reference that I have seen has
said, 'farming' ants are either absent from the UK or EXTREMELY rare,
and even ones that actively 'herd' aphids are not common.

You've presented no evidence to that effect, that I've seen.

The size of the UK makes it harder to find research on the ant-aphid
symbiosis which is demonstrably applicable.

Would you like to explain that? We have one of the largest and most
effective biological research communities in the world, an ecology
that supports God knows how many ants (but of only a few species),
and hundreds of species of aphids, many of economic importance
(thus meaning that a LOT of research has been done on them).

UK is a small country, most research on ants is performed elsewhere.

For example, one of the main bibles on ant behaviour is Wilson's
"The Ants" - http://www.the-scientist.com/1991/05/27/18/6

Wilson is from America - as is most of the research on ants I see.

Here's a UK paper showing that the ants are defending the aphids:

``Soldiers effectively defend aphid colonies against predators in the field''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=9514674

At LAST! All right, that is evidence. More for my point than yours,
but it does include some evidence that at least one ant does protect
at least one aphid in the UK.

Of course, the family of aphids is a minor one in the UK and is not
the family that causes 95% of trouble to farmers and gardeners, and
the abstract says:

These observations provide the first demonstration that soldiers
are effective in defence against natural levels of predation under
field conditions.

Given the relative importance of the families, how much research do
you think will have found no evidence for this effect?

Research with negative findings rarely gets published.

Maybe that is why you have failed to cite anything on the subject.

...and here's a UK paper showing aphids produced more soldiers when ants
were not in attendance - which strongly suggests the ants were protecting
the aphids:

``Ant tending influences soldier production in a social aphid''

- http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=11052537

I wasn't aware that there was a significant amount of either ginger
or storax either farmed or naturalised in the UK. The fact that the
authors are British doesn't mean that the ants are.

OK, fair enough. Try these:

UK Organic association factsheets:

``Some ants ‘farm’ aphids for the honeydew that they produce. This means
that they protect them from predators and move the pests around a plant
to new ‘pastures’. If a tree is badly infested with ants and aphids, a
band of insect glue round the trunk stops the ants climbing up the
tree. Without protection, aphid numbers will decline as they are
exposed to more parasites and predators.''

- http://www.hdra.org.uk/factsheets/pc10.htm

``Ants have learnt to ‘farm’ these creatures, milking them for a fresh
honeydew drink. Like all good farmers, ants look after their livestock,
protecting them from predators and moving them to new feeding grounds.
This can spread both the pests, and the diseases they carry.''

- http://www.hdra.org.uk/factsheets/pc1.htm

The Royal Horticultural Society - on ants and aphids:

``Ants can protect aphids from attack by ladybirds and other predators in
order to secure their supply of honeydew. Increased numbers of aphids
may result in more damage to plants.''

- http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles0701/ants.asp

A page about wood ants in Scotland:

``Wood ant tracks are not only on the ground, but are three dimensional,
leading up trees into the canopy above. The ants not only hunt in the
trees, they are known to farm as well. Wood ants have a symbiotic
relationship with aphids (for example Symydobius oblongus). The aphids
are `milked' by the ants who gently stroke them to get them to release
droplets of honeydew, a food that is rich in sugars, acids, salts and
vitamins. To the aphids this is their waste product as they have to suck
a lot of tree sap to get the protein they require. In return for the
honeydew the ants protect their precious sugar source from predators and
competing sap sucking insects.''

- http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/tfl.woodants.html

How I interpret what I see in my garden is ants farming aphids, by
protecting them, raising them, carrying them up to the tops of plants,
and using them as a technological tool to attack the plants, and steal
their juices - both by sucking the honeydew, and by eating the
resulting plump and juicy aphids.

I know you do. And I am pointing out that your interpretation is
prejudice, because you are using your observations to justify your
beliefs and not to check up on them. The evidence is all against
your interpretation being correct.

All *what* evidence?

All the evidence I've seen supports the idea that ants and aphids
tend to form mutually beneficial symbiotic relationships.

I've witnessed phenomena which I can only explain in terms of ant
protection of aphids:

For example last year my bronze fennel was attacked in the autumn by
aphids at ground level. The strange thing was, that the aphids were all
protected by a 4cm high wall of dirt, close up against the fennel stem.
I regularly knocked this off with a stick - and it was regularly rebuilt.
The plant was about four feet from two ants nests. The only conclusion I
regard as plausible is that the ants were responsible for building the
protective wall around the aphid infestation.

Your claim - that ants in the UK don't look after aphids - is the
one that seems to lack any supporting evidence.

I fully expect the ant-aphid symbiosis to be global in extent and ancient
in origin.

Doubtless. The former is known to be not the case, however. See
above.

....where nothing to the contrary is presented - AFAICS.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ Remove lock to reply.

In article , Tim Tyler writes
What are you claiming here? That there are differences in the ways that
ants farm aphids in different locations?

Not too far fetched. Different locations may well have different species
of ants, and, just because one species farms aphids, doesn't mean to say
all the other species do too.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

Kay wrote or quoted:
In article , Tim Tyler writes

What are you claiming here? That there are differences in the ways that
ants farm aphids in different locations?

Not too far fetched. Different locations may well have different species
of ants, and, just because one species farms aphids, doesn't mean to say
all the other species do too.

Not all species of ants farm aphids.

Ants still do farm aphids on a global basis, though - probably excepting
the arctic and antarctic regions.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ Remove lock to reply.

In article , Tim Tyler wrote:

Are you serious? Why on earth do you imagine that this particular
ecological association is constant over the whole earth, when no
other one is?

What didn't make sense was the idea that - because orgainisms of
one species eat organisms from another one, the two species are
not in a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship.

I did not claim that. What I claimed was the following:

I have seen no evidence that ants either cause aphid infestations
or enhance them in the UK, and that my observations and most of
the other information I have seen indicates that it probably does
not happen, at least as far as it affects gardeners.

Note that the requirement for causing or enhancing an infestation
is a stronger one than for ants acting to defend aphids. It also
requires such a defence to make a significant difference.

Also, the CONTEXT was that of aphid infestations as they affect
gardeners. I can easily believe that there are occasional and
irrelevant exceptions, or even that there are a few, rare aphid/
ant symbioses that affect a few gardeners. I haven't seen any
evidence for the latter, but it wouldn't surprise me.

IMO, the ants are *farming* the aphids - in similar ways all over the
world.

Well, you are simply wrong. See any respectable book on entomology.
Michael Chinery "Insects", for example.

What are you claiming here? That there are differences in the ways that
ants farm aphids in different locations? Just because there are
similarities, that doesn't exculde the possibility of there also
being differences. I stand by my statement.

Would you claim that someone going out to pick elderberries is farming
the elder trees? Or that people shooting rabbits are farming them?

Just because the ants eat the aphids, that doesn't mean the aphids are
/not/ being farmed. You might just as well argue that humans are not
farming pigs because people have been observed to eat bacon.

No, it doesn't. But, as far as every reference that I have seen has
said, 'farming' ants are either absent from the UK or EXTREMELY rare,
and even ones that actively 'herd' aphids are not common.

You've presented no evidence to that effect, that I've seen.

I am pretty sure that you have responded to posts of mine where I
gave it in the past, so I think that you have forgotten. I have
posted at least the following:

I have observed black ants cohabiting with ladybird larvae on
the same aphid patch.

I have done a crude (but fairly reliable) analysis of aphid
populations on some plants (mainly broad beans) in my garden
and elsewhere, and have found evidence that the populations
were being spready by rain and adult aphids but not ants.

I have searched the net and some other places for evidence of
the claims that ants cause or enhance aphid infestations, and
found effectively damn-all.

I know that aphid infestations are a major agricultural problem,
and I knew people working on defences, but not one was even
considering attacking the ants. This indicates that they knew
it was an irrelevance.

The size of the UK makes it harder to find research on the ant-aphid
symbiosis which is demonstrably applicable.

Would you like to explain that? We have one of the largest and most
effective biological research communities in the world, an ecology
that supports God knows how many ants (but of only a few species),
and hundreds of species of aphids, many of economic importance
(thus meaning that a LOT of research has been done on them).

UK is a small country, most research on ants is performed elsewhere.

But a lot of work on aphids is, or at least was, performed here. As
I said, they are a major agricultural pest.

OK, fair enough. Try these:

UK Organic association factsheets:

``Some ants ‘farm’ aphids for the honeydew that they produce. This means
that they protect them from predators and move the pests around a plant
to new ‘pastures’. ...

``Ants have learnt to ‘farm’ these creatures, milking them for a fresh
honeydew drink. Like all good farmers, ants look after their livestock,
protecting them from predators and moving them to new feeding grounds.

The Royal Horticultural Society - on ants and aphids:

``Ants can protect aphids from attack by ladybirds and other predators in

order to secure their supply of honeydew. ...
A page about wood ants in Scotland:

... In return for the
honeydew the ants protect their precious sugar source from predators and
competing sap sucking insects.''

Look, do you understand the difference between statements and facts?

My investigations indicate that those statements are simply copying
a "well known fact", but that "fact" has little or no evidence to
support it and may well be a myth. I have so far found effectively
no EVIDENCE to support it, and my research indicates that it is very
likely false.

Can you provide any references to real evidence?

All the evidence I've seen supports the idea that ants and aphids
tend to form mutually beneficial symbiotic relationships.

I don't think that you have looked very hard, then. I know that some
ants do, and probably even some UK ants do, but I have found none
that it is a phenomenon in the UK that is significant enough to affect
gardeners.

I've witnessed phenomena which I can only explain in terms of ant
protection of aphids:

For example last year my bronze fennel was attacked in the autumn by
aphids at ground level. The strange thing was, that the aphids were all
protected by a 4cm high wall of dirt, close up against the fennel stem.
I regularly knocked this off with a stick - and it was regularly rebuilt.
The plant was about four feet from two ants nests. The only conclusion I
regard as plausible is that the ants were responsible for building the
protective wall around the aphid infestation.

Ah! Yes, I will accept that as evidence. I have never seen it, in
my garden or any other, but I have heard of it. Are you claiming
that most (or even the most common) ants will build such walls?
If so, why are they so rarely reported?

Your claim - that ants in the UK don't look after aphids - is the
one that seems to lack any supporting evidence.

I have never made that claim, as you should know. I have stated that
I believe that they RARELY do, and that such behaviour makes effectively
damn-all difference to gardeners.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please produce it.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.