Hi,

this is a question about a new planting of native trees into pasture
in the UK. This NG seems to be almost entirely US oriented, but
perhaps this is a widespread problem, or there are UK subscribers here
as well.

Taking advantage of a Forestry Commission grant I have planted half a
hectare of mixed oak, ash and alder with a variety of shrubs for a
graded edging consisting of hazel, hawthorn, field maple and guelder
rose. (please excuse me their latin names!) These were cell-grown
plants. Being a novice I have done everything by the book, using tree
shelters, keeping them weed-free, and so on.

In the 1st planting year (2001) there was a late frost soon after the
first leaves came out and they got hammered. This mostly affected the
ash. In the same year they had to cope with a summer drought as well.
This combination really set them back and many had to be replaced.

Last year was a good one, with a long wet summer, and nearly all the
plants made good growth. This year, a couple of nights ago, there was
another late frost which has again destroyed most of the new leaf,
hitting the ash again, and also the oak. The alder seem tougher and
the shrubs are not affected at all.

The question, finally, is: why are these native trees so susceptible
to frost? I would have expected them to be fully hardy (they were sold
as such). And I have noticed that these new plantings always come into
leaf before the established trees --including saplings-- in the
existing hedgerows around. Will these new trees ever adapt better to
their surroundings, or are they a lost cause? It's very galling
because ash grow like weeds around here (S W Wales), except for me.

Any advice or information welcomed...

Thanks


Brian Mitchell

Brian Mitchell wrote:

Hi,

this is a question about a new planting of native trees into pasture
in the UK. This NG seems to be almost entirely US oriented, but
perhaps this is a widespread problem, or there are UK subscribers here
as well.

Taking advantage of a Forestry Commission grant I have planted half a
hectare of mixed oak, ash and alder with a variety of shrubs for a
graded edging consisting of hazel, hawthorn, field maple and guelder
rose. (please excuse me their latin names!) These were cell-grown
plants. Being a novice I have done everything by the book, using tree
shelters, keeping them weed-free, and so on.

In the 1st planting year (2001) there was a late frost soon after the
first leaves came out and they got hammered. This mostly affected the
ash. In the same year they had to cope with a summer drought as well.
This combination really set them back and many had to be replaced.

Last year was a good one, with a long wet summer, and nearly all the
plants made good growth. This year, a couple of nights ago, there was
another late frost which has again destroyed most of the new leaf,
hitting the ash again, and also the oak. The alder seem tougher and
the shrubs are not affected at all.

The question, finally, is: why are these native trees so susceptible
to frost? I would have expected them to be fully hardy (they were sold
as such). And I have noticed that these new plantings always come into
leaf before the established trees --including saplings-- in the
existing hedgerows around. Will these new trees ever adapt better to
their surroundings, or are they a lost cause? It's very galling
because ash grow like weeds around here (S W Wales), except for me.

Any advice or information welcomed...

Thanks


Brian Mitchell


Welcome to the group! Not being familiar with your actual site and
conditions, I'd guess that maybe you got offsite stock and had bad luck
with the weather - a common occurrance anywhere you depend on nurseries.
Try to get stock from local seed whenever possible. Usually really
off-site stuff doesn't die for several years.

There was a an active group of primarily UK foresters around a few years
ago. The association of online foresters or some such - Does anyone know
if Nick's web page still up?
Mike H.

Why not just transplant trees and shrubs you can get from nearby hedgerows?
--
Joe Zorzin



"Brian Mitchell" wrote in message
...
Hi,

this is a question about a new planting of native trees into pasture
in the UK. This NG seems to be almost entirely US oriented, but
perhaps this is a widespread problem, or there are UK subscribers here
as well.

Taking advantage of a Forestry Commission grant I have planted half a
hectare of mixed oak, ash and alder with a variety of shrubs for a
graded edging consisting of hazel, hawthorn, field maple and guelder
rose. (please excuse me their latin names!) These were cell-grown
plants. Being a novice I have done everything by the book, using tree
shelters, keeping them weed-free, and so on.

In the 1st planting year (2001) there was a late frost soon after the
first leaves came out and they got hammered. This mostly affected the
ash. In the same year they had to cope with a summer drought as well.
This combination really set them back and many had to be replaced.

Last year was a good one, with a long wet summer, and nearly all the
plants made good growth. This year, a couple of nights ago, there was
another late frost which has again destroyed most of the new leaf,
hitting the ash again, and also the oak. The alder seem tougher and
the shrubs are not affected at all.

The question, finally, is: why are these native trees so susceptible
to frost? I would have expected them to be fully hardy (they were sold
as such). And I have noticed that these new plantings always come into
leaf before the established trees --including saplings-- in the
existing hedgerows around. Will these new trees ever adapt better to
their surroundings, or are they a lost cause? It's very galling
because ash grow like weeds around here (S W Wales), except for me.

Any advice or information welcomed...

Thanks


Brian Mitchell

Hi Brian, welcome to the group.

No worries, Brian - trees grow well in many areas of the world, not just
the US...
The following information should serve you well, even though it comes from
someone here.
While I don't often like to generalize, it is better than no help at
all. Frost
is a common problem in all geographical locations primarily in low-lying
(elevationally or topographically speaking) areas. Being in SW wales, the
proximity to
the ocean may be a factor, too, although I would actually think that might
be better. Younger trees are more succeptable to frost than that of older
trees, particularly because of the lack of mature root systems.

With mature root systems of naturally-occuring trees, the trees will
likely sprout back
new leaves, but with the lack of these extra energy reserves, the trees
will more than
likely die. So the answer to your question is that it is not a "lost
cause". I would give them
at least until August to sprout back new leaves, and if they don't then,
replace them.

A half-hectare piece is too large to use a tarp, but tarping these trees
would certainly help.
Pretty soon that bloody frost will be gone, and you'll be able to plant
some more trees.

Here's a suggestion: Construct a hot house - a small framed uninsulated
house using clear,
plastic visqueen or other rolled good material so that inside the house
the climate stays warmer
for longer periods of time. Purchase some large 12" pots, or construct
some place to put some of
your pasture soil inside the hothouse and plant your seedlings in there
for a year or maybe two. This
way, the roots of your trees get used to that type of soil and you don't
get problems with the frost
until the trees build up enough root mass to recharge new growth.
Transplant the trees carefully about
the 2nd or 3rd week of June. If you get a frost after that, it's just bad
luck, but chances are you won't.
Even if you do, your little ones now have more defensive power to fight
the frost. It may be cost or time
prohibitive, but that depends on your situation.

Good luck,

Geoff Kegerreis

Michigan, USA



Brian Mitchell wrote:

Hi,

this is a question about a new planting of native trees into pasture
in the UK. This NG seems to be almost entirely US oriented, but
perhaps this is a widespread problem, or there are UK subscribers here
as well.

Taking advantage of a Forestry Commission grant I have planted half a
hectare of mixed oak, ash and alder with a variety of shrubs for a
graded edging consisting of hazel, hawthorn, field maple and guelder
rose. (please excuse me their latin names!) These were cell-grown
plants. Being a novice I have done everything by the book, using tree
shelters, keeping them weed-free, and so on.

In the 1st planting year (2001) there was a late frost soon after the
first leaves came out and they got hammered. This mostly affected the
ash. In the same year they had to cope with a summer drought as well.
This combination really set them back and many had to be replaced.

Last year was a good one, with a long wet summer, and nearly all the
plants made good growth. This year, a couple of nights ago, there was
another late frost which has again destroyed most of the new leaf,
hitting the ash again, and also the oak. The alder seem tougher and
the shrubs are not affected at all.

The question, finally, is: why are these native trees so susceptible
to frost? I would have expected them to be fully hardy (they were sold
as such). And I have noticed that these new plantings always come into
leaf before the established trees --including saplings-- in the
existing hedgerows around. Will these new trees ever adapt better to
their surroundings, or are they a lost cause? It's very galling
because ash grow like weeds around here (S W Wales), except for me.

Any advice or information welcomed...

Thanks

Brian Mitchell

On Fri, 16 May 2003 20:47:03 -0700, mhagen wrote:



Welcome to the group!...

Aside from that wail of despair, I doubt I have anything to contribute
to a discussion among real foresters, but thank you.


. . . Not being familiar with your actual site and
conditions, I'd guess that maybe you got offsite stock and had bad luck
with the weather - a common occurrance anywhere you depend on nurseries.
Try to get stock from local seed whenever possible. Usually really
off-site stuff doesn't die for several years.

It was nursery stock, and not from the immediate area, but from a
nursery a couple of hundred miles further north, which I would have
thought might have added a further hardiness factor, but maybe not.

The damage seems not to be total; a setback rather than a massacre.
Your last sentence sounds a bit ominous. Are you saying that really
of-site stuff does eventually die off? I do hope not. If the Forestry
Commission come round in 3 years --which they will-- and find no
trees, I believe they're empowered to transport me to the Colonies :-)


BM




There was a an active group of primarily UK foresters around a few years
ago. The association of online foresters or some such - Does anyone know
if Nick's web page still up?
Mike H.

On Sat, 17 May 2003 06:42:49 -0400, "Joe Zorzin"
wrote:


Why not just transplant trees and shrubs you can get from nearby hedgerows?

Hi,

I am renovating this property, part of which involves re-laying and
planting the boundary hedges, and I have "won" about 20 ash saplings
this way. But there are some 700 trees in the 1/2 hectare, and this is
not wild open country but very domestic and cultivated hill-farm land.
If I went plundering my neighbours' hedgerows on that scale, I think
they'd have something to say about it!


BM

On Sat, 17 May 2003 14:05:46 GMT, Geoff Kegerreis
wrote:

Hi Brian, welcome to the group.

Thanks.



With mature root systems of naturally-occuring trees, the trees will
likely sprout back
new leaves, but with the lack of these extra energy reserves, the trees
will more than
likely die. So the answer to your question is that it is not a "lost
cause". I would give them
at least until August to sprout back new leaves, and if they don't then,
replace them.

Looking more closely at them, most of the trees seem to have in tact
growing points and probably will come back. Ths is a great relief,
because replacing them all would be an expense of money and time I
couldn't really afford.


A half-hectare piece is too large to use a tarp, but tarping these trees
would certainly help.
Pretty soon that bloody frost will be gone, and you'll be able to plant
some more trees.

Yes, it's already gone and --touching wood with crossed fingers while
whistling-- there won't be another this year. It was sort of a freak,
a single night of hard air frost after a month of mild temperatures.
And I've got fruit trees, ornamental shrubs, soft fruit as well as the
woodland trees and shrubs, but it was only the standard woodland trees
that were hit. I'm supposing this is because they had only just come
into leaf and were still tender, while everything else has been in
leaf for a while.


Here's a suggestion: Construct a hot house - a small framed uninsulated
house using clear,
plastic visqueen or other rolled good material so that inside the house
the climate stays warmer
for longer periods of time. Purchase some large 12" pots, or construct
some place to put some of
your pasture soil inside the hothouse and plant your seedlings in there
for a year or maybe two. This
way, the roots of your trees get used to that type of soil and you don't
get problems with the frost
until the trees build up enough root mass to recharge new growth.
Transplant the trees carefully about
the 2nd or 3rd week of June. If you get a frost after that, it's just bad
luck, but chances are you won't.
Even if you do, your little ones now have more defensive power to fight
the frost. It may be cost or time
prohibitive, but that depends on your situation.

To have raised my own trees from seed as you suggest would have been
the best way, I agree, but I was impatient to have trees. Getting
single whips from a nursery just down the road would have been the
next best step, but the nursery I did use offered a much better deal.
Perhaps what I need is not so much arboricultural training as
decision-making training!

Thanks to you and everyone for the advice and comfort!


BM

There was a an active group of primarily UK foresters around a few years
ago. The association of online foresters or some such - Does anyone know
if Nick's web page still up?
Mike H.



I found the UK website.
Try these people.
http://www.foresters.org/ask.htm

There was a an active group of primarily UK foresters around a few years
ago. The association of online foresters or some such - Does anyone know
if Nick's web page still up?
Mike H.



I found the UK website.
Try these people.
http://www.foresters.org/ask.htm

There was a an active group of primarily UK foresters around a few years
ago. The association of online foresters or some such - Does anyone know
if Nick's web page still up?
Mike H.



I found the UK website.
Try these people.
http://www.foresters.org/ask.htm

There was a an active group of primarily UK foresters around a few years
ago. The association of online foresters or some such - Does anyone know
if Nick's web page still up?
Mike H.



I found the UK website.
Try these people.
http://www.foresters.org/ask.htm

Trees can learn simple words like hello and thank you.


Brian Mitchell wrote in message
...
Hi,

this is a question about a new planting of native trees into pasture
in the UK. This NG seems to be almost entirely US oriented, but
perhaps this is a widespread problem, or there are UK subscribers here
as well.

etc

On Sun, 18 May 2003 17:40:12 -0700, mhagen wrote:



There was a an active group of primarily UK foresters around a few years
ago. The association of online foresters or some such - Does anyone know
if Nick's web page still up?
Mike H.



I found the UK website.
Try these people.
http://www.foresters.org/ask.htm


Many thanks.


BM