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Are we being conned (again)
FarmI wrote:
I know I've done a lot of travel through various bits of rural NSW and Vic over recent years and whatever is happening and why is not a pretty picture. I think our rural areas are pretty well stuffed. My wife was talking to an old timer (80ish) in the district who was pointing out that in her memory of the 1930s and in her parents' memory of the 1900s there were worse droughts and dust storms than in recent years. This informant went on to say that there was no point in complaining, that you had to put up with whatever you got, and that the droughts of old showed there was no climate change. This is by no means an isolated case of this type. The old timer is right that there have been bad droughts and duststorms in the past and that these had nothing to do with climate change. The problem arrises when you extend this to saying that therefore the droughts and duststorms now cannot be due to climate change, or conversely since we had droughts before that were not caused by climate change and we have droughts now, therefore climate change doesn't exist. I don't think any scientist is saying that the droughts we have had recently are simply and solely due to climate change. What they are saying is that existing climate factors that can bring drought like ENSO are likely to get more powerful or more frequent. So the first part of the reason for denial is the confusion between shorter term events like weather, middle term events like ENSO and the long term. There is a second part which I believe it is another common origin of climate change denial in country districts. The way that it works is that when you are on the land you are taught to be a survivor, to find methods of coping, to fix the problem if you can and to endure it if you cannot do anything about it. This is admirable and makes much sense in the environment. The problem comes when attitudes that go with the philosophy are extended beyond their useful scope. In learning to be Stoic and to endure whatever nature throws at you, you are taught not to whinge. To whinge is a sign of weakness, a sign of a pointless attitude that you wish the world to be as you desire it and that you are too stupid to accept it as it really is. If you blame drought on an external agency like climate change you are whingeing, blaming somebody or something else instead of taking responsibility and getting on with the job. If you are a self sufficient farmer whose pride keeps you going in tough times then emotionally you cannot blame climate change because that is admitting you cannot cope. Therefore it doesn't exist. The sad thing is that if they did accept that something bigger than them was going on and put their coping skills to use in new ways they would be better off. We may not have time to wait until younger sons and granddaughters take over with newer attitudes. These are some observations of part of rural NSW that you might find interesting. I am not trying to suggest that any of this necessarily represents you or your situation. David |
#2
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Are we being conned (again)
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
FarmI wrote: I know I've done a lot of travel through various bits of rural NSW and Vic over recent years and whatever is happening and why is not a pretty picture. I think our rural areas are pretty well stuffed. My wife was talking to an old timer (80ish) in the district who was pointing out that in her memory of the 1930s and in her parents' memory of the 1900s there were worse droughts and dust storms than in recent years. This informant went on to say that there was no point in complaining, that you had to put up with whatever you got, and that the droughts of old showed there was no climate change. This is by no means an isolated case of this type. The old timer is right that there have been bad droughts and duststorms in the past and that these had nothing to do with climate change. The problem arrises when you extend this to saying that therefore the droughts and duststorms now cannot be due to climate change, or conversely since we had droughts before that were not caused by climate change and we have droughts now, therefore climate change doesn't exist. Yep. I don't think any scientist is saying that the droughts we have had recently are simply and solely due to climate change. What they are saying is that existing climate factors that can bring drought like ENSO are likely to get more powerful or more frequent. So the first part of the reason for denial is the confusion between shorter term events like weather, middle term events like ENSO and the long term. There is a second part which I believe it is another common origin of climate change denial in country districts. The way that it works is that when you are on the land you are taught to be a survivor, to find methods of coping, to fix the problem if you can and to endure it if you cannot do anything about it. This is admirable and makes much sense in the environment. The problem comes when attitudes that go with the philosophy are extended beyond their useful scope. In learning to be Stoic and to endure whatever nature throws at you, you are taught not to whinge. To whinge is a sign of weakness, a sign of a pointless attitude that you wish the world to be as you desire it and that you are too stupid to accept it as it really is. If you blame drought on an external agency like climate change you are whingeing, blaming somebody or something else instead of taking responsibility and getting on with the job. If you are a self sufficient farmer whose pride keeps you going in tough times then emotionally you cannot blame climate change because that is admitting you cannot cope. Therefore it doesn't exist. The sad thing is that if they did accept that something bigger than them was going on and put their coping skills to use in new ways they would be better off. We may not have time to wait until younger sons and granddaughters take over with newer attitudes. These are some observations of part of rural NSW that you might find interesting. I am not trying to suggest that any of this necessarily represents you or your situation. Yep. Fits in with the Beyond Blue campaigns etc too. But I also think that is both a bit overly pessimistic and a bit too global in how some of our farmers are learning to cope/adapt/innovate. I certainly see where you're coming from though. I was a bit glib when I threw in my 'stuffed' comment. I should have made more effort to explain. As a gardener, I tend to look at growing things and plants that have died. It's when you see trees that must be hundreds of years old dieing or dead or in stress that make you wonder what is going on. These trees have withstood droughts before, have been stressed before and yet have managed to survive - till now. Isolated trees will die but when you see huge numbers dead or so far gone that you know thye won't recover, it rings alarm bells. I do know that our Fed politicians have been told that the future will bring much drier conditions to both the south east of Oz and the south west. That's our food growing areas so not a pretty picture. |
#3
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Are we being conned (again)
FarmI wrote:
There is a second part which I believe it is another common origin of climate change denial in country districts. The way that it works is that when you are on the land you are taught to be a survivor, to find methods of coping, to fix the problem if you can and to endure it if you cannot do anything about it. This is admirable and makes much sense in the environment. The problem comes when attitudes that go with the philosophy are extended beyond their useful scope. In learning to be Stoic and to endure whatever nature throws at you, you are taught not to whinge. To whinge is a sign of weakness, a sign of a pointless attitude that you wish the world to be as you desire it and that you are too stupid to accept it as it really is. If you blame drought on an external agency like climate change you are whingeing, blaming somebody or something else instead of taking responsibility and getting on with the job. If you are a self sufficient farmer whose pride keeps you going in tough times then emotionally you cannot blame climate change because that is admitting you cannot cope. Therefore it doesn't exist. The sad thing is that if they did accept that something bigger than them was going on and put their coping skills to use in new ways they would be better off. We may not have time to wait until younger sons and granddaughters take over with newer attitudes. These are some observations of part of rural NSW that you might find interesting. I am not trying to suggest that any of this necessarily represents you or your situation. Yep. Fits in with the Beyond Blue campaigns etc too. But I also think that is both a bit overly pessimistic and a bit too global in how some of our farmers are learning to cope/adapt/innovate. I certainly see where you're coming from though. In laying out two ways to get to denial I wasn't suggesting that these opinions are universal. There are some really thoughtful and flexible people around who are planning how they are going to deal with longer droughts, heavier rain events and who are thinking there has to be a better way to make stuff grow than just pouring on superphosphate. There are also too many who feel trapped and powerless (for various reasons) who do themselves harm in a variety of ways, mostly men, including refusing to see a doctor and self medication with alcohol. I was a bit glib when I threw in my 'stuffed' comment. I should have made more effort to explain. As a gardener, I tend to look at growing things and plants that have died. It's when you see trees that must be hundreds of years old dieing or dead or in stress that make you wonder what is going on. These trees have withstood droughts before, have been stressed before and yet have managed to survive - till now. Isolated trees will die but when you see huge numbers dead or so far gone that you know thye won't recover, it rings alarm bells. Dead trees bother me too. I do know that our Fed politicians have been told that the future will bring much drier conditions to both the south east of Oz and the south west. That's our food growing areas so not a pretty picture. If I read the figures right the wheat belts, particularly the south west, are the reason that Oz is a net exporter of food. If those become marginal the current trend of digging up good farmland in wetter areas to make suburbs for urban sprawl and to get the coal underneath will need serious rethinking. It might be better if our fearless leaders thought about this before it happens. David |
#4
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Are we being conned (again)
David Hare-Scott wrote:
FarmI wrote: There is a second part which I believe it is another common origin of climate change denial in country districts. The way that it works is that when you are on the land you are taught to be a survivor, to find methods of coping, to fix the problem if you can and to endure it if you cannot do anything about it. This is admirable and makes much sense in the environment. The problem comes when attitudes that go with the philosophy are extended beyond their useful scope. In learning to be Stoic and to endure whatever nature throws at you, you are taught not to whinge. To whinge is a sign of weakness, a sign of a pointless attitude that you wish the world to be as you desire it and that you are too stupid to accept it as it really is. If you blame drought on an external agency like climate change you are whingeing, blaming somebody or something else instead of taking responsibility and getting on with the job. If you are a self sufficient farmer whose pride keeps you going in tough times then emotionally you cannot blame climate change because that is admitting you cannot cope. Therefore it doesn't exist. The sad thing is that if they did accept that something bigger than them was going on and put their coping skills to use in new ways they would be better off. We may not have time to wait until younger sons and granddaughters take over with newer attitudes. These are some observations of part of rural NSW that you might find interesting. I am not trying to suggest that any of this necessarily represents you or your situation. Yep. Fits in with the Beyond Blue campaigns etc too. But I also think that is both a bit overly pessimistic and a bit too global in how some of our farmers are learning to cope/adapt/innovate. I certainly see where you're coming from though. In laying out two ways to get to denial I wasn't suggesting that these opinions are universal. There are some really thoughtful and flexible people around who are planning how they are going to deal with longer droughts, heavier rain events and who are thinking there has to be a better way to make stuff grow than just pouring on superphosphate. There are also too many who feel trapped and powerless (for various reasons) who do themselves harm in a variety of ways, mostly men, including refusing to see a doctor and self medication with alcohol. Helplessness caused by government inaction on logical methods of fighting the climate change? Creating situations where they have to sell out their farms? Things like huge ocean going milk tankers importing milk into Australia? I cerainly would self medicate drinking milk either. I was a bit glib when I threw in my 'stuffed' comment. I should have made more effort to explain. As a gardener, I tend to look at growing things and plants that have died. It's when you see trees that must be hundreds of years old dieing or dead or in stress that make you wonder what is going on. These trees have withstood droughts before, have been stressed before and yet have managed to survive - till now. Isolated trees will die but when you see huge numbers dead or so far gone that you know thye won't recover, it rings alarm bells. Dead trees bother me too. I do know that our Fed politicians have been told that the future will bring much drier conditions to both the south east of Oz and the south west. That's our food growing areas so not a pretty picture. If I read the figures right the wheat belts, particularly the south west, are the reason that Oz is a net exporter of food. If those become marginal the current trend of digging up good farmland in wetter areas to make suburbs for urban sprawl and to get the coal underneath will need serious rethinking. It might be better if our fearless leaders thought about this before it happens. David This situation of building homes in good farming areas has been seen by me since I was ten. As far as pollution goes, these motor companies, when hit by a loss of revenue, due to increased fuel prices all of a sudden CAN produce much more fuel efficient petrol motors. Where is their conscience? Shouldnt technology be used under all circumstances to improve fuel consumption, in the same process, creating less pollution? Me I'm accused of conspiracy theories, when in fact they are all around in business circles.... Who is blind to that? Who is running the counytry? Big business, backed by them PM's get elected, and voters are fooled... |
#5
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Are we being conned (again)
David Hare-Scott wrote:
FarmI wrote: There is a second part which I believe it is another common origin of climate change denial in country districts. The way that it works is that when you are on the land you are taught to be a survivor, to find methods of coping, to fix the problem if you can and to endure it if you cannot do anything about it. This is admirable and makes much sense in the environment. The problem comes when attitudes that go with the philosophy are extended beyond their useful scope. In learning to be Stoic and to endure whatever nature throws at you, you are taught not to whinge. To whinge is a sign of weakness, a sign of a pointless attitude that you wish the world to be as you desire it and that you are too stupid to accept it as it really is. If you blame drought on an external agency like climate change you are whingeing, blaming somebody or something else instead of taking responsibility and getting on with the job. If you are a self sufficient farmer whose pride keeps you going in tough times then emotionally you cannot blame climate change because that is admitting you cannot cope. Therefore it doesn't exist. The sad thing is that if they did accept that something bigger than them was going on and put their coping skills to use in new ways they would be better off. We may not have time to wait until younger sons and granddaughters take over with newer attitudes. These are some observations of part of rural NSW that you might find interesting. I am not trying to suggest that any of this necessarily represents you or your situation. Yep. Fits in with the Beyond Blue campaigns etc too. But I also think that is both a bit overly pessimistic and a bit too global in how some of our farmers are learning to cope/adapt/innovate. I certainly see where you're coming from though. In laying out two ways to get to denial I wasn't suggesting that these opinions are universal. There are some really thoughtful and flexible people around who are planning how they are going to deal with longer droughts, heavier rain events and who are thinking there has to be a better way to make stuff grow than just pouring on superphosphate. There are also too many who feel trapped and powerless (for various reasons) who do themselves harm in a variety of ways, mostly men, including refusing to see a doctor and self medication with alcohol. Helplessness caused by government inaction on logical methods of fighting the climate change? Creating situations where they have to sell out their farms? Things like huge ocean going milk tankers importing milk into Australia? I certainly wouldn't self medicate drinking milk either. I was a bit glib when I threw in my 'stuffed' comment. I should have made more effort to explain. As a gardener, I tend to look at growing things and plants that have died. It's when you see trees that must be hundreds of years old dieing or dead or in stress that make you wonder what is going on. These trees have withstood droughts before, have been stressed before and yet have managed to survive - till now. Isolated trees will die but when you see huge numbers dead or so far gone that you know thye won't recover, it rings alarm bells. Dead trees bother me too. I do know that our Fed politicians have been told that the future will bring much drier conditions to both the south east of Oz and the south west. That's our food growing areas so not a pretty picture. If I read the figures right the wheat belts, particularly the south west, are the reason that Oz is a net exporter of food. If those become marginal the current trend of digging up good farmland in wetter areas to make suburbs for urban sprawl and to get the coal underneath will need serious rethinking. It might be better if our fearless leaders thought about this before it happens. David This situation of building homes in good farming areas has been seen by me since I was ten. As far as pollution goes, these motor companies, when hit by a loss of revenue, due to increased fuel prices all of a sudden CAN produce much more fuel efficient petrol motors. Where is their conscience? Shouldn't technology be used under all circumstances to improve fuel consumption, in the same process, creating less pollution? The computer industry is forced to do so for good reason. So should car makers. Me I'm accused of creating conspiracy theories, when in fact they are all around in business circles.... Who is blind to that? Who is running the country? Big business, backed by them PM's get elected, and voters are fooled... |
#6
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Are we being conned (again)
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#7
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Are we being conned (again)
Jonno wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" Apparently you have never wanted to read this..... http://www.junkscience.com/ I have read some of it actually. It's a big site, what particularly tickled your fancy? David |
#8
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Are we being conned (again)
David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jonno wrote: "David Hare-Scott" Apparently you have never wanted to read this..... http://www.junkscience.com/ I have read some of it actually. It's a big site, what particularly tickled your fancy? David You really do show cynicism. You haven't answered the public servant question. Are you one? |
#9
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Are we being conned (again)
"Jonthe Fly" wrote in message ... David Hare-Scott wrote: Jonno wrote: "David Hare-Scott" Apparently you have never wanted to read this..... http://www.junkscience.com/ I have read some of it actually. It's a big site, what particularly tickled your fancy? David You really do show cynicism. You haven't answered the public servant question. Are you one? I used to be, ah memories of stainless steel in the back. Why is it important to now if a poster has a particular occupation???? The topic is/was gardening with a few diversions into obscurly related fields. Occupation is not relevant to digging a hole. Jim |
#10
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Are we being conned (again)
Jonthe Fly wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote: Jonno wrote: "David Hare-Scott" Apparently you have never wanted to read this..... http://www.junkscience.com/ I have read some of it actually. It's a big site, what particularly tickled your fancy? David You really do show cynicism. How? The site in question deals with many issues. Would you like to know what I think of the health effects of side stream tobacco smoke? It's there but off topic to this NG. I will admit to scepticism (and I believe there ought to be more of it) which is not that same as cynicism. You haven't answered the public servant question. Are you one? What does my occupation have to do with anything? What are the characteristics of public servants that you are interested in? Ah now I see your reply to SG1. Thankyou for suggesting that my material is so good that I could get paid for it but sadly I don't. I am not a public servant and I don't get anything from anybody for anything I post on usenet. Yes I do have a vested interest in spending my time doing this. The welfare of my children and those to come. David |
#11
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Are we being conned (again)
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
FarmI wrote: I do know that our Fed politicians have been told that the future will bring much drier conditions to both the south east of Oz and the south west. That's our food growing areas so not a pretty picture. If I read the figures right the wheat belts, particularly the south west, are the reason that Oz is a net exporter of food. If those become marginal the current trend of digging up good farmland in wetter areas to make suburbs for urban sprawl and to get the coal underneath will need serious rethinking. It might be better if our fearless leaders thought about this before it happens. Sadly they won't given that election cycle and other things. But I do agree whole heartedly. |
#12
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Are we being conned (again)
Snip
I don't think any scientist is saying that the droughts we have had recently are simply and solely due to climate change. What they are saying is that existing climate factors that can bring drought like ENSO are likely to get more powerful or more frequent. So the first part of the reason for denial is the confusion between shorter term events like weather, middle term events like ENSO and the long term. snip WTH is ENSO????? |
#13
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Are we being conned (again)
"SG1" wrote in message ... Snip I don't think any scientist is saying that the droughts we have had recently are simply and solely due to climate change. What they are saying is that existing climate factors that can bring drought like ENSO are likely to get more powerful or more frequent. So the first part of the reason for denial is the confusion between shorter term events like weather, middle term events like ENSO and the long term. snip WTH is ENSO????? Answer: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/ |
#14
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Are we being conned (again)
"Jonno" wrote in message ... "SG1" wrote in message ... Snip I don't think any scientist is saying that the droughts we have had recently are simply and solely due to climate change. What they are saying is that existing climate factors that can bring drought like ENSO are likely to get more powerful or more frequent. So the first part of the reason for denial is the confusion between shorter term events like weather, middle term events like ENSO and the long term. snip WTH is ENSO????? Answer: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/ OK thanks for that. Never seen that acronym b4 and spent 29 years with the BoM. Had it said SOI or similar i would have twigged. But El Ninyo (pronuciation) b4 it had me stumped. Too long out of the bureau. Thanks Jim |
#15
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Are we being conned (again)
"SG1" wrote in message ... "Jonno" wrote in message ... "SG1" wrote in message ... Snip I don't think any scientist is saying that the droughts we have had recently are simply and solely due to climate change. What they are saying is that existing climate factors that can bring drought like ENSO are likely to get more powerful or more frequent. So the first part of the reason for denial is the confusion between shorter term events like weather, middle term events like ENSO and the long term. snip WTH is ENSO????? Answer: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/ OK thanks for that. Never seen that acronym b4 and spent 29 years with the BoM. Had it said SOI or similar i would have twigged. But El Ninyo (pronuciation) b4 it had me stumped. Too long out of the bureau. Thanks Jim Thats OK. I never worked for the BOM, and until you asked, I didnt know either. Teachers learn from qeustions. Glad you asked.... I learnt something too..... |
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