Hi everyone.

Sorry, possibly a little long.
I recently had to update my spraying certificate for work. Although a rushed
2 day course, it was interesting to hear what changes had been made in 5yrs,
since last doing the course.
Basically all chemicals have to be approved. This involves extensive
testing, effects etc etc. Chemicals being tested now, unknown to us, may not
be out for 5-10yrs. Not to mention the increased safety window. e.g. A
withholding period of 7days may well be more than enough.
But an interesting note raised is the use of non registered, homemade
organic recipes. To make a chemical yourself, even if it's all organic and
sell it is actually illegal. Well not so much that, but not approved,
therefore if you were to sell veges, sprayed with a homemade organic recipe,
and someone did get sick, you would be liable. THese have not been approved,
nor tested.
While authorities may get around and randomly test veges/fruit sold at the
local market, they can't test all. Marked as "home grown" or "totally
organic", there is no proof or regular testing. Buying fruit from these
sorts of places may actually be more harmful than your local woolies store.
Woolies/coles etc do test them, and there are harsh penalties for
contaminated fruit. e.g. Farmers A, B, and C all sell apples for sale
through woolies/exporting etc. They each have sold $20,000 worth. The apples
are tested, and if any are contaminated they will be traced back to a
particular farmer, he will incur cost of total worth ($60,000). Apparently
this is how it works.
Now this brings me to bio-neem. We have got this chemical from a local
organics place. Safe to use, no witholding period stated, etc etc, according
to label. For all our chemicals we have to have a MSDS stating all about the
chemical, effects of poisoning etc etc, spills, LD rates etc. We didn't have
one for Bio Neem, but a recent purchase of Bio Neem in a new bottle showed a
new label on it with "Poison", so this led us to get a MSDS.
After a while we received one. THis so called safe/organic oil wasn't that
afterall. The MSDS we got wasn't similar to other ones. It actually looked
as if it was typed up by the manufacturers, not even close to any other
style of MSDS I've seen. No LD rates, no mention of flashpoints, vapour
rates, what to do in case of spills. The funny thing is that it stated that
as of March 03 (or 04) it was to be classed as a S6 poison. Now have a look
at some of the pesticides out there, Chlorpyrifos sp? is an S6. Rogor could
be, or maybe it's just a poison. Only one above S6 is S7. The funny thing
was the statement about what to do if swallowed. Something like "due to the
bitterness of neem oil it is unlikely to be swallowed, but it can cause
vomiting, convulsions, nausea...". Now I don't know how many of you have
smelt neem oil, but it's similar to peanut butter, or something like that.
Read a MSDS for Rogor. It will straight out tell you how bad, effects, and
what to do if swallowed. Now I don't know what rogor tastes like, but
judging by the smell, neem oil would win everytime in "which one would be
most likely to be swallowed due to smell".
I just thought I would raise this point that organics aren't always safe, or
the safest. I don't work for a chemical company, I am not against organics
(I have/do use them occasionally). Organics, that involves biological
control or manual work (hand pulling weeds) are going to be relatively safe,
chemicals won't always be safe.
I would choose a toxic, yet tested chemical, one which states witholding
periods, safe use of product, etc etc over a organic, untested, relatively
unlabelled with no safety info, anytime.
Ok, so now the neem oil is classed as a S6. What caused this though? Illness
led to testing? It still doesn't appear to have a NRA (National Registration
Authority) number on it, so I still don't think it's registered. However,
how many people out there know this, are still using it, have used it on
foodstuff type plants, and picked them the next day. I know myself have used
it at work, got the stuff in my face from drift, mixed it without gloves,
used it in my backyard. While I have a 20month old toddler, thankfully I
didn't use it near her, or on anything edible.
Just my $2 worth.
All the above is my opinion/findings, and not to be chosen over any
directions on a label. Instructions, directions and witholding periods
should still be followed, and as always, read the label.
Cheers
Andrew

g'day andrew,

it should be ultra safe as far as humans go andrew, it is a
non-specific insectacide though so that means the good and bad bugs
die. also as is with natural products bugs can become immune with over
use or incorrect use of the product, in that case then a good natural
product can be all but useless. it is the main stay for garderns in
asia so should we create a resistant bug and gets back to there then
they have lost their main weapon so to speak.

so best to use it randomly and as part of your itegrated pest
management program.

that's my opinion on the up front question you asked as for the rest
of waht is written and can hear your comcerns no man made chemical
should be put into the calss of a natural product that wwe home
gardeners may make ours is made and used fresh and used seldom. the
rest sounds like hype from the big supermarkets and from the
regulator. now when i mowed lawns many years ago as did my father we
sprayed commonly for grass grubs and bindi eye, no one ever suffered
any reactions to those applications that where sprayed without any
sort of safety gear as is the norm' nowadays.

me i reckon the regulator can only regulate to the lowest common
denominator and in short they look after the self interest of
themselves and companies.

it all comes down to common sense, eg.,. in the usa they bring rotary
mowers out that are fitted with blade brakes and clutches ok? so some
yippo yank mowing his lawn so he deliberatly runs over a rock in his
lwan that he knew was there then was astounded that the blade clutch
didn't save the mower that is waht happens when common sense is taken
out of the formula and that is not the only instance.

anyhow that's how len who has never bent a cranksahft never cut finger
or foot with mower, and never suffered from sprying things back in the
good old days.

you cannot make things foolproof i ahve said it before all the
licensing and regulations under the sun will not work until you remove
the fool.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
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In article ,
"Andrew G" wrote:

I would choose a toxic, yet tested chemical, one which states witholding
periods, safe use of product, etc etc over a organic, untested, relatively
unlabelled with no safety info, anytime.
Ok, so now the neem oil is classed as a S6. What caused this though? Illness
led to testing? It still doesn't appear to have a NRA (National Registration
Authority) number on it, so I still don't think it's registered. However,
how many people out there know this, are still using it, have used it on
foodstuff type plants, and picked them the next day.

I've never used it, but ISTR that it's the lack of proper data that has led to
the warnings (and S6 classification?).

Ah, here's the bit I remember from Gardening Australia last year:
http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s1129840.htm

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet