From: Iris Cohen

I hope you know that last summer was very unusual, & this winter is rather
worse than average.

Now that's good news....

American society is considerably more regimented and conformist that in
Europe
Now that is surprising. I always thought it was the other way around.

Good heavens, Iris, wherever did you get that idea? This is such an
enormous country, that has grown so far so fast, that it has needed to
almost impose some degree of uniformity so as to establish and maintain some
form of national identity.

The material in America (on the eastern side, at least) is not as good as
in
Europe. There are fewer suitable species, and those that are most suitable
are
conifers

Maybe that explains why some of us get carried away with tropicals &
subtropicals from all over.

I think you are right. But I still wish people would dig up a few mroe of
those tasty foundation palnts form their front yards.

In fact, there are a couple of species - notably Ficus neriifolia and
Bucida spinosa - that I really wish I could grow effectively here in the
north.

Get a greenhouse or a light garden.

First I have to get a garden!

Colin

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

From: Iris Cohen
American society is considerably more regimented and conformist that in
Europe
Now that is surprising. I always thought it was the other way around.

Good heavens, Iris, wherever did you get that idea? This is such an
enormous country, that has grown so far so fast, that it has needed to
almost impose some degree of uniformity so as to establish and maintain some
form of national identity.

I'm currently reading the Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, and the
author of the preface credits "Poor Richard's Almanack" for creating
a unified American character. Worst news I've heard all week......


The material in America (on the eastern side, at least) is not as good as
in
Europe. There are fewer suitable species, and those that are most suitable
are
conifers

I simply don't believe this, Colin. Give me some time to come up
with examples, but offhand, what is wrong with parsley crataegus,
shadblow, and beach plum? Huh? Huh? Huh?

--
Nina Shishkoff

Riverhead, NY

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

From: Nina Shishkoff

The material in America (on the eastern side, at least) is not as good as
in
Europe. There are fewer suitable species, and those that are most suitable
are
conifers

I simply don't believe this, Colin. Give me some time to come up
with examples, but offhand, what is wrong with parsley crataegus,
shadblow, and beach plum? Huh? Huh? Huh?

Er - I confess I don't know shadblow (sounds like a sinus infection) and I
did mention that there were some good fruiting species here. The crataegus
in the US, however, do not provide the same contorted, flakey barked, dense
twigged material as c. monogyna does in northern Europe. If it does - I
wish someone would show me where!

Actually, I agree I was a little harsh. I am intrigued by the willoww oak
(Quercus phellos). It looks and, from what I have read, sounds like an
excellent species, but I have never seen a bonsai version.

Colin

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Er - I confess I don't know shadblow (sounds like a sinus infection) and I
did mention that there were some good fruiting species here. The crataegus
in the US, however, do not provide the same contorted, flakey barked, dense
twigged material as c. monogyna does in northern Europe. If it does - I
wish someone would show me where!

I think you have to let American species have their own special
characteristics, not think of them as European analogs. Shadblow
(Amelanchier alnifolia) has smooth muscle-y bark, and a literati
growth form- I wouldn't make it do anything else. Aronia is a
similar rosaeous shrub with wonderful fall color. Crataegus
apiifolia (parsley hawthorn) is very twiggy with small leaves and
makes a great mame.

Other nice American bonsai material: highbush blueberries. Great red
flaking bark, nice flowers, nice branching, great root system.
Various woody potentillas; shrubby St. John's wort (Hypericum);
porcelainberry (Ampelopsis), all kinds of native azaleas and
rhododendrons, sheep's laurel (Kalmia).


Europe? Bah- an overgrazed park. We've got wild stuff here. Put on
your tick-repellent and go hike around with a Gleason and Cronquist.
--
Nina Shishkoff

Riverhead, NY

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Nina disagreed with Colin thiswise :


I simply don't believe this, Colin. Give me some time to
come up
with examples, but offhand, what is wrong with parsley
crataegus,
shadblow, and beach plum? Huh? Huh? Huh?


Colin's retort went this way (into which I insert some cogent
commentary ;-):

Er - I confess I don't know shadblow (sounds like a sinus
infection) and I
did mention that there were some good fruiting species here.
The crataegus
in the US, however, do not provide the same contorted, flakey
barked, dense
twigged material as c. monogyna does in northern Europe. If it
does - I
wish someone would show me where!


You might take a close look at the parsley haw (Crataegus
marshallii); it has much the same aspect. Crataegus constitutes
the largest single genus of woody plants in North America with
150 species, plus or minus (E. Palmer, Arnold Arboretum -
retired, and one of the few persons brave enough to take on the
taxonomy of this confusing group). Most of them hybridize
readily, adding to the confusion. The problem with these,
however, is that large specimens of almost any species of haw are
danged hard to dig successfully. That is, perhaps, why you see
so few as large bonsai. They also are armed and dangerous! Some
of the N. American hawthorns rival the various Mimosa (including
the catclaw) for armament. One of our Tallahassee club members
has an excellent large hawthorn bonsai (those who went to BCI
Orlando this year saw it). He has ID'd it as the parsley haw,
but _I_ have my doubts and think it may be C. flava, the yellow
haw. C. flava, has very rough, furrowed gray to black bark. He
disagrees with my diagnosis, so . . . it remains a very nice
hawthorn bonsai of about 36 inches. I probably have somewhere a
poor picture of it from one of our local shows. I'll look.

Shadblow is a regional common name for another fairly large group
of small trees -- the Juneberries or Serviceberries (Amelanchier
species). Lovely clusters of white flowers in the spring, small
leaves, blue berries that the birds don't allow to stay long
enough to enjoy (visually or gastronomically). They are, I
think, best as small bonsai.

Beach plum I don't know, but there are 8-10 very nice wild plums
in the eastern U.S. which should do well if one is willing to put
the effort into a tree that won't live more than 20 years. One
of the best is the Chicasaw plum, P. angustifolia.


Actually, I agree I was a little harsh. I am intrigued by the
willoww oak
(Quercus phellos). It looks and, from what I have read, sounds
like an
excellent species, but I have never seen a bonsai version.


You need to hang around the Appalachian mountains more. Aside
from the tropics, this area (both sides of the mountains, but
primarily on the east and central slopes, has the greatest
variety of native tree and shrubs species of anywhere else on the
planet. A large number of these would be suited for bonsai if
anyone here would think about them and get their minds off
emulating Japanese trees with Japanese species. Most of these
will be deciduous, but there are a few eastern conifers that may
have possibilities, too. This is a sparsely settled area, with
few bonsai growers. (I seem to recall that the Arboretum
collection in Asheville, N.C., had some nice bonsai from
Appalachian species.) The western US is the home of the greatest
variety of conifer species anywhere -- many of which are suited
for bonsai, and many of which are represented by some pretty nice
potted trees in North American collections.

Several American Celtis species, especially C. laevigata, the
American hackberry, are perfect for bonsai. ABS New Orleans had
a large one, that ranks in my mind with the top bonsai I have
seen. It is Guy Guidry's tree, if I recall. And remember the
red-barked sparkleberry (Vaccinium arboreum), I showed you in the
woods next to my house? And then, there's the American hornbeam,
which has better fall color than any of the others -- IMHO.

Anyway, not to get defensive, we do have the trees (I've been
pushing people to use natives for years); we just don't have the
bonsaiests to do them justice. Maybe it will take a very
talented Brit to help us see the potential in them -- but he's
gotta go out and learn our trees, first..

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Crataegus
apiifolia (parsley hawthorn) is very twiggy with small leaves
and
makes a great mame.


The confused haw taxonomy strikes again. All my books have
parsley haw as C. marshalii, and it is a quite large shrub or
small tree. I have several here in my woods that stand 15 feet
tall. I think the world record has a trunk of 12 inches, or so.
Leaves at 1.5 inches are a bit large for mame, but reduce to 3/4
inch.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

From: Jim Lewis

You need to hang around the Appalachian mountains more.

[snipped]


See folks - even a degenerate old hippy can still learn....

Colin

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

From: Nina Shishkoff

Europe? Bah- an overgrazed park. We've got wild stuff here. Put on
your tick-repellent and go hike around with a Gleason and Cronquist.

Ha!

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim: from sea to shining sea.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 12:16 PM
Subject: [IBC] Life in the colonies

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Old hippy, maybe. Degenerate...NAW!!!!
--I crucified my hate and
held the world within my hands--
Neal Ross-Marysville CA


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

This is such an enormous country, that has grown so far so fast, that it has
needed to almost impose some degree of uniformity so as to establish and
maintain some form of national identity.

I thought that was the excuse of the Chinese Communists.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)