take a tree and leave it in a normal nursery pots, shape it and work with it
for a number of years and then in due course place them in to Bonsai pots?
If this is so, could you please explain to me why you can not take a seedling
or a cutting that has been propagated and place immediately into a Bonsai pot
once they have taken and are showing new growth?

Once you place a tree in a bonsai pot, to all intents & purposes it stops
growing, especially the trunk. The goal in bonsai is to have a mature appearing
tree in miniature. To achieve that mature look, and a nice thick tapered trunk,
the tree must be grown for a number of years in the ground, if it is hardy, and
if not, in a large nursery pot. Once you have the trunk the way you want it,
then you can put it in a bonsai pot & work on the branches. Also, for most
species, it is too stressful to do a lot of pruning, styling, & wiring, & then
pot them immediately. I can't tell you how many trees I've killed that way.
Once you do the major styling & wiring, you should leave them in the nursery
pot for six months to a year before you put them in a bonsai pot. If nothing
else, bonsai teaches you patience.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

I like to get the roots of standard nursery stock sorted out as soon as
possible when converting them to bonsai. The roots of most nursery stock
are generally rather poorly arranged for bonsai - tangled, knotted,
one-sided, pot bound, etc. So I will cut the top back to get the right
sized tree (no fancy styling now), then work on the roots to get them
arranged, and finally pot it up in a training box - generally 3 -4 times the
volume of the proper sized bonsai pot. The tree will live in either the
training box or perhaps the ground after a couple of years in the box
depending upon what growth and styling are necessary.

The reasons I like this order a
- Sometimes the roots are too horrible to make a good bonsai so I don't have
years of styling invested in a tree with a major defect.
- I like the look of a bonsai with good roots going into the soil - it
anchors the composition for me.
- Major root rearrangement is stressful and is one of the prime times to
kill the tree - killing a nursery stock is easier to take than killing a
well developed bonsai. Obviously I take the root arrangement more slowly
(several years) for a well developed bonsai.
- Arranging the roots in a training box will give stronger growth than root
bound in a nursery pot or even just potted up into the next larger nursery
pot after the first year.
- The connection between roots and branches is fairly strong in some species
so having uniform roots will make it easier to balance the top growth of the
tree.

Finally, I also like to start with seedlings so I can get the roots right to
start. However, it takes many years of training box or ground to get the
trunk large enough be a good bonsai. But you have good roots when it is
time to style the tree.

Marty

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Xref: kermit rec.arts.bonsai:63340

At 08:11 AM 5/10/03 -0700, MartyWeiser wrote:
I like to get the roots of standard nursery stock sorted out as soon as
possible when converting them to bonsai. The roots of most nursery stock
are generally rather poorly arranged for bonsai - tangled, knotted,
one-sided, pot bound, etc. So I will cut the top back to get the right
sized tree (no fancy styling now), then work on the roots to get them
arranged, and finally pot it up in a training box - generally 3 -4 times the
volume of the proper sized bonsai pot. The tree will live in either the
training box or perhaps the ground after a couple of years in the box
depending upon what growth and styling are necessary.....

Marty

Your point is well taken. This is also how I would proceed. However, for
beginners there are other considerations. The prime one is that they really
want to play with these plants, but they have almost no experience.
Throwing them directly into root pruning and repotting sets them up for
disappointment without letting them have any fun.

By allowing them to first style the plants, they get some instant
gratification without immediately killing the plants. Hopefully they will
get a better idea of how to root prune and repot within a year or two and
greatly increase their chance of success. After which, they can follow your
good advice.



Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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In a message dated 5/10/03 11:11:31 AM, writes:
The roots of most nursery stock are generally rather poorly arranged for
bonsai -- tangled, knotted, one-sided, pot bound, etc.

So are the roots of many trees sold for bonsai, also.
Iris

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Brent,

A very good point with regards to beginners and those with few trees - we
all need some bonsai that look good or are at least on a path we can see to
looking good. I guess we should encourage folks to inspect the roots,
remove those that circle, loosen the edges, and repot into a larger diameter
pot in the spring after they initially style the tree. They should also
plan to work on the roots periodically as they style the tree. Finally, I
would encourage beginners to buy a low cost maple or similar tree that will
take severe root pruning (do you have some suggestions?) and do a full root
pruning with washing to learn about the process. If the tree lives they
have learned and started a tree on the path with good roots. If it does
not, they are not out much money and have also learned what is too much.

Marty

Brent's response

Marty

Your point is well taken. This is also how I would proceed. However, for
beginners there are other considerations. The prime one is that they really
want to play with these plants, but they have almost no experience.
Throwing them directly into root pruning and repotting sets them up for
disappointment without letting them have any fun.

By allowing them to first style the plants, they get some instant
gratification without immediately killing the plants. Hopefully they will
get a better idea of how to root prune and repot within a year or two and
greatly increase their chance of success. After which, they can follow your
good advice.



Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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************************************************** ******************************
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Iris,

Yep, good root pruning takes time and is a bit risky for the tree. Both cut
into the supplier's profit margin unless the buyer sees value and is willing
to pay for the better rootage. However, most bonsai buyers do see the value
added to the tree since the roots are buried. I think the IBC is educating
more buyers to the value.

So are the roots of many trees sold for bonsai, also.
Iris

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At 06:05 PM 5/10/03 -0700, MartyWeiser wrote:
Brent,

A very good point with regards to beginners and those with few trees - we
all need some bonsai that look good or are at least on a path we can see to
looking good. I guess we should encourage folks to inspect the roots,
remove those that circle, loosen the edges, and repot into a larger diameter
pot in the spring after they initially style the tree. They should also
plan to work on the roots periodically as they style the tree. Finally, I
would encourage beginners to buy a low cost maple or similar tree that will
take severe root pruning (do you have some suggestions?) and do a full root
pruning with washing to learn about the process. If the tree lives they
have learned and started a tree on the path with good roots. If it does
not, they are not out much money and have also learned what is too much.

Marty

It's odd, but for years I didn't really pay much attention to the
aesthetics of roots. I only wanted healthy roots so the plants would grow.
But the longer I stay in this business, the more particular I become
about roots, nebari, and graft unions. I'm not sure we can impart that
value on beginners, but it doesn't hurt to try.

Now, it is my standard practice to do some root work whenever I repot, not
only for bonsai in training, but for the thousands of common nursery plants
(I guess everything is prebonsai to some degree) that I grow. I have even
begun paying attention to root work in transpanting seedlings, new
cuttings, and new grafts. It has cost me some plants too, but the survivors
are much more valuable. In general, at every repotting, I try to remove as
much of the old soil as possible, and will even hose off evey last speck of
it, if conditions are appropriate. This allows me a complete inspection of
the roots. At the very least, I untangle the roots, correct crossing and
circling roots, rake out small surface feeder roots, and spread the roots
radially when repotting. This doubles or triples the time it takes to
repot, but as I said, the product is so much better, and it makes me feel
better. Just a couple thousand more to go.

I have said it here befo I have one nearly ironclad rule of root
pruning- Remove only ONE large offending root at each repotting. You can
almost always get away with this if you are repotting sensibly, that is, in
the correct season, on heathy plants, and with correct aftercare. Wholesale
root carnage will almost always get you in trouble unless you absolutely
know what you're doing.

As for practice plants, most nurseries sell green Japanese maple seedlings,
Acer palmatum for a reasonable price. A nice big one gallon plant shouldn't
cost more than about $10 and probably a lot less. At this time of the year
(May and early June in N. hemisphere), you can whack these pretty good.
There is still enough time in the season for them to recover. You can trunk
chop it (you should remove nearly all the foliage in one way or another)
and immediately unpot it and do extensive root work. Removing half the
roots is usually pretty safe. Repot with good bonsai type soil, put it in
SHADE, and leave it there for the rest of the season, don't prune anything
off, it needs the new growth to regenerate the root system. Do this as root
lesson, not a styling lesson, resist the urge to pinch, bend, wire, or cut.
Be prepared for it to DIE, do this as a training exercise only, but you may
be pleasantly surprised. Other maples that respond well to this treatment
are Hedge Maple, Acer campestre, and Trident Maple, Acer buergerianum, but
these are harder to find in nurseries.



Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++