----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
snip
Personally, I'd like to see more "bonsai" displayed with artworks
from the same country. It seems a tad silly for us westerners to
ALWAYS display our trees with Japanese or Chinese art. Unless
we're all making cookie-cutter, Japanese-looking bonsai, they're
OUR trees, OUR designs, and should/could be displayed with OUR
art.
Jim Lewis
--------------------

Jim, your sentiment here is likely shared by many, including myself. For
instance, keeping in mind that the Japanese tokonoma, while based on
Japanese cultural decoration, also (mostly) obeys basic artistry - 3-point
display. This kind of display just _works_. So, why not a Western bonsai
display that also follows this basic artistic convention of 3-point display
(not at all Japanese) with something like:
- an scrub oak or mesquite bonsai (windswept) planted on a large slab
covered in sand
- a small animal skull surrounded by sand (as companion)
- an old, broken wagon wheel leaning up against the backdrop wall
or
- a bald cypress (individual or forest) planted on a slab (I like slabs ;-)
- a ceramic menagerie of alligator eyes, head crown and snout (configured
like one resting below the surface of the water, but looking at the world
above) arranged on a piece of black glass
- a branch, festooned with Spanish moss hanging (like the scroll) from the
backdrop

This is still very much in the context of "bonsai" and still very much
artistic (following basic rules of artistry and human perception) and very
much Western.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

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Good Day to All,

perhaps if one remembers the simple rule of the
pot being to the tree as the frame is to the painting.

AND the second simple rule of stimulating the
imagination through the use of a well designed tree.
Thus one would not need the props.

If a painting needs props to explain itself,it is a
failure.Same for a tree.

BUT if I put myself in the shoes of the early odd
tree collectors of China,way back when.I wonder if
we aren't losing the simple appeal that made the
folk of the past seek to take home the objects that
they found in nature ?
[Remember that the mind of man can contemplate
a pebble into an entity,given enough time.]

The problem with this so-called Modern World is that
for most it seems to be pointless to live.
Bonsai/Penjing/Painting requires of the individual some
cultivation of the mind,and I think it is waste trying to
pretend that all are equal in being able to appreciate a love
of nature or refinement.

There will always be greater or lesser than one's self.

Potters pot and seek to refine what they do.This is not
always compatible with functional use.
Perhaps this is why there are traditional shapes for
supporting trees.

Change should come from and through the tree,not it's
container,otherwise it is no longer Penjing/Bonsai.
Khaimraj
[ Caribbean/West Indies,
the drier lands]

*The paintings with Mr.Pall's trees worked because they
are decorative,flat and not mentally very challenging.You
focus on the tree.Were they [ the paintings]really needed,
or are eyes becoming so jaded as to what they should be
really looking at ????????


-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Rutledge
To:
Date: 31 July 2003 13:49
Subject: [IBC] Western Art (was: Pacific Rime exhibit)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
snip
Personally, I'd like to see more "bonsai" displayed with artworks
from the same country. It seems a tad silly for us westerners to
ALWAYS display our trees with Japanese or Chinese art. Unless
we're all making cookie-cutter, Japanese-looking bonsai, they're
OUR trees, OUR designs, and should/could be displayed with OUR
art.
Jim Lewis
--------------------

Jim, your sentiment here is likely shared by many, including myself. For
instance, keeping in mind that the Japanese tokonoma, while based on
Japanese cultural decoration, also (mostly) obeys basic artistry - 3-point
display. This kind of display just _works_. So, why not a Western bonsai
display that also follows this basic artistic convention of 3-point display
(not at all Japanese) with something like:
- an scrub oak or mesquite bonsai (windswept) planted on a large slab
covered in sand
- a small animal skull surrounded by sand (as companion)
- an old, broken wagon wheel leaning up against the backdrop wall
or
- a bald cypress (individual or forest) planted on a slab (I like slabs ;-)
- a ceramic menagerie of alligator eyes, head crown and snout (configured
like one resting below the surface of the water, but looking at the world
above) arranged on a piece of black glass
- a branch, festooned with Spanish moss hanging (like the scroll) from the
backdrop

This is still very much in the context of "bonsai" and still very much
artistic (following basic rules of artistry and human perception) and very
much Western.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas


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Good Day to All,

perhaps if one remembers the simple rule of the
pot being to the tree as the frame is to the painting.


It's probably pointless to extend this discussion too much
farther (as in almost ALL discussions on "bonsai as art"), but I
just don't buy the pot-as-frame argument; it doesn't wash for me
at all. The pot is _at least_ an integral part of the bonsai
design. (And, what, may I ask, were those gawdawful, ornate,
gulded monstrosities around some many "Old Masters" if not the
frame-maker's statement (or at least something that says "this
painting is IMPORTANT, look at the expensive frame I have put it
in.")

Pots are part of the overall bonsai design, and other comments
notwithstanding, _I_ at least can see the possibility of the tree
being part of the pot design.


AND the second simple rule of stimulating the
imagination through the use of a well designed tree.
Thus one would not need the props.


Depends on your point of view. To the sculptor that made his or
her part of a bonsai/art display, the BONSAI might be the "prop."
I think some of those Pacific Rim (and Walter's pics) represented
a pretty good partnership in the art/desiign world.


If a painting needs props to explain itself,it is a
failure.Same for a tree.

THAT is probably true, but see above.


BUT if I put myself in the shoes of the early odd
tree collectors of China,way back when.I wonder if
we aren't losing the simple appeal that made the
folk of the past seek to take home the objects that
they found in nature ?
[Remember that the mind of man can contemplate
a pebble into an entity,given enough time.]

Yup. The question arises (again) -- why?


The problem with this so-called Modern World is that
for most it seems to be pointless to live.
Bonsai/Penjing/Painting requires of the individual some
cultivation of the mind,and I think it is waste trying to
pretend that all are equal in being able to appreciate a love
of nature or refinement.

ALL are not equal. Sometime one may be better than others. At
other times, the combination of two or more elements may be
perfect harmony.

Why do peole insist the everything be absolutes: This is good;
that is bad?

I should NEVER enter into "bonsai and art" debates. They're like
stationary whirlwinds!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just
about all gone." -- Uncle Dave Macon, old-time musician

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Khaimraj Seepersad"
snip
AND the second simple rule of stimulating the
imagination through the use of a well designed tree.
Thus one would not need the props.
If a painting needs props to explain itself,it is a
failure.Same for a tree.
Khaimraj
-----------

There are many similarities between painting and bonsai, but this ain't one
of them. Your observation denies any distinct quality between painting and
bonsai and this is a mistake. Every art has its companion pieces:
- Go to the concert of a popular musician and the music may be wonderful.
The way that the lighting augments the music is also often wonderful.
Without the lighting as a component of the concert, there may well be
diminished impact and interest. It's not a prop, its a companion element
that adds meaning.
- Sculpture nearly always has greater impact when it is shown in a setting
that sets it off well; the use of space and lighting -- the clean slate of a
large room without furniture, a simple spotlight above the work. These
things serve as companions to the work and clear the way for concise
communication to the viewer.
- Paintings, too, use compainion pieces. A blank wall that "frames" the
frame and painting is virtually always better than a cluttered wall. A
properly positioned light adds drama. Even a simple bench placed in front
of the painting (especially when there are few or no other benches around)
helps to add weight to the display and invites interest.

So don't tell me that a painting or a bonsai or any othe work of art is a
failure if it "needs props" to explain itself. What you're referring to are
not props, they're companions and they don't explain, they support. This is
artistry and you, as an artist, should know this. This dog won't hunt.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

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************************************************** ******************************
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Clutching at straws.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Rutledge
To: Khaimraj Seepersad ; bonsailist

Date: 01 August 2003 5:39
Subject: [IBC] Western Art (was: Pacific Rime exhibit)



----- Original Message -----
From: "Khaimraj Seepersad"
snip
AND the second simple rule of stimulating the
imagination through the use of a well designed tree.
Thus one would not need the props.
If a painting needs props to explain itself,it is a
failure.Same for a tree.
Khaimraj
-----------

There are many similarities between painting and bonsai, but this ain't one
of them. Your observation denies any distinct quality between painting and
bonsai and this is a mistake. Every art has its companion pieces:
- Go to the concert of a popular musician and the music may be wonderful.
The way that the lighting augments the music is also often wonderful.
Without the lighting as a component of the concert, there may well be
diminished impact and interest. It's not a prop, its a companion element
that adds meaning.
- Sculpture nearly always has greater impact when it is shown in a setting
that sets it off well; the use of space and lighting -- the clean slate of
a
large room without furniture, a simple spotlight above the work. These
things serve as companions to the work and clear the way for concise
communication to the viewer.
- Paintings, too, use compainion pieces. A blank wall that "frames" the
frame and painting is virtually always better than a cluttered wall. A
properly positioned light adds drama. Even a simple bench placed in front
of the painting (especially when there are few or no other benches around)
helps to add weight to the display and invites interest.

So don't tell me that a painting or a bonsai or any othe work of art is a
failure if it "needs props" to explain itself. What you're referring to
are
not props, they're companions and they don't explain, they support. This
is
artistry and you, as an artist, should know this. This dog won't hunt.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas





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Good Day to All,
Jim typed,

I should NEVER enter into "bonsai and art" debates. They're like
stationary whirlwinds!

ME too.

Jim,the whole frame to Old Master painting has it's own
philosophy.Simply put an Old Master is so powerful,you
don't see the frame.Which can be[the frame ],if you follow
the Dutch,a window to another world.
[Always remember who paid/pays for the frame and
painting,not all have taste.]

There are so many counter arguments,not all are strong
or well developed,but they are mouthed.
Some just like to be controversial,it sells,especially on -
blank walls.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj [ nothing more to say,apologies for the ruffled
feathers.
[West Indies/Caribbean,
the drier lands]


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Lewis
To:
Date: 01 August 2003 5:09
Subject: [IBC] Western Art (was: Pacific Rime exhibit)




I should NEVER enter into "bonsai and art" debates. They're like
stationary whirlwinds!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just
about all gone." -- Uncle Dave Macon, old-time musician

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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

----- Original Message -----
From: "Khaimraj Seepersad"

Clutching at straws.
---------

Heh, heh. Right. ;-) None of what I cited is true. I just made it up.
You got me.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

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************************************************** ******************************
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Good Day to All,
Andy,

there isn't much point in getting upset with me,
for the very same qualities in my personality
that allow me to create,also allow me to have
opinions.

We may touch base once in a while,but obviously
we are going to have strong differences in thinking.

Down here there are too many people who want
to leave their mark on everything.
Change at that level,comes slowly or it should
not come at all.It cannot be forced.
Simply remember that even someone born of
Asian parents is not considered Asian,unless they
also grow up and interact in their respect Asian
country.

The Chinese have a tradition on this island of telling
their children,that they are of Chinese parents,but
that they are not Chinese.
Someone doing Bonsai/Penjing,will in the beginning
mimic.This is normal.
With time the local influences take over.

So an American or Trinidadian doing Bonsai/Penjing
is already changing the rules.This is natural.
With extreme time,it will become tradition.No need
to force it.

Adding skulls and sand no matter how meaningful it
may seem to be,will be novelty not innovation,if it is
forced.
I had a student whose wife drove him mad with the
additions of frogs,and other doll house items to his
Bonsai.This is how it was also viewed publicly.
Lessened his craft.
[Is there not a Japanese form of this already and do
not some of the Chinese trees have boats and people
on them -- I still don't think much of the window
dressing.]

As to paintings and walls,sculpture and space to view,
I believe the painters and potters out there understood
what I said.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj
[West Indies/Caribbean,
the drier lands]


-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Rutledge
To:
Date: 01 August 2003 5:39
Subject: [IBC] Western Art (was: Pacific Rime exhibit)



So don't tell me that a painting or a bonsai or any othe work of art is a
failure if it "needs props" to explain itself. What you're referring to
are
not props, they're companions and they don't explain, they support. This
is
artistry and you, as an artist, should know this. This dog won't hunt.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

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*****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************* **************************
*****
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


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From Khaimraj
AND the second simple rule of stimulating the
imagination through the use of a well designed tree.
Thus one would not need the props.
If a painting needs props to explain itself,it is a
failure.Same for a tree.
Khaimraj
-----------

From Andy:


So don't tell me that a painting or a bonsai or any othe
work of art is a
failure if it "needs props" to explain itself. What you're
referring to are
not props, they're companions and they don't explain, they
support. This is
artistry and you, as an artist, should know this. This dog
won't hunt.

--------------------

Khaimraj and Andy,

I don't think things surround a work of art to be companions
for that work - but, especially in asian art like bonsai and
suiseki, are giving the work a "context" - which does give
additional support to the meaning of the work. These arts
differ, to me, from painting in as much as their context can
be seasonal, or refer to something that is important when
drawn from the collection of objects; context matters very
much. I don't think a frame on a painting was meant in the
same way. A frame can function as an interface between a
room's decor and the painting -or is decorative.
On the other hand in many modern galleries we hang without
framing - so there is no confusion between reaction to frame
and reaction to painting - the viewer supplies his own context
and surrounding. This is a much preferred exhibit now.
I don't find it possible in my experience to see painting
and bonsai/suiseki similar with regard to displaying because
of the weight of meaning connected to the asian display
methods.
Lynn

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Hello to All,
Lynn,

I like this,gives me much to chew on.Thank you.
I see living near a larger Asian culture and probably
less peasant,as down here,really makes a big
difference.
Stay Well,
[and probably more later.]
Khaimraj
[ West Indies/Caribbean,
getting soggy again lands.]


-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Boyd
To:
Date: 01 August 2003 8:46
Subject: [IBC] Western Art (was: Pacific Rime exhibit)


Khaimraj and Andy,

I don't think things surround a work of art to be companions
for that work - but, especially in asian art like bonsai and
suiseki, are giving the work a "context" - which does give
additional support to the meaning of the work. These arts
differ, to me, from painting in as much as their context can
be seasonal, or refer to something that is important when
drawn from the collection of objects; context matters very
much. I don't think a frame on a painting was meant in the
same way. A frame can function as an interface between a
room's decor and the painting -or is decorative.
On the other hand in many modern galleries we hang without
framing - so there is no confusion between reaction to frame
and reaction to painting - the viewer supplies his own context
and surrounding. This is a much preferred exhibit now.
I don't find it possible in my experience to see painting
and bonsai/suiseki similar with regard to displaying because
of the weight of meaning connected to the asian display
methods.
Lynn

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*****
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************************************************* **************************
*****
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Hi Khaimraj,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Khaimraj Seepersad"
Good Day to All,
Andy,
there isn't much point in getting upset with me,
for the very same qualities in my personality
that allow me to create,also allow me to have
opinions.
------------------

No, no, not upset. I just found your comment humorous and full of
politicization and absent of substance. It was not a substantive response,
that's all.
------------------
snip
As to paintings and walls,sculpture and space to view,
I believe the painters and potters out there understood
what I said.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj
------------------

Well, I'm a painter and I've no idea what you mean. I've been trying to
explain my points, why don't you make the same effort. Thanks.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

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