Hi all,

I've put together and have published a web-book - "Artistic Foundations of
Bonsai Design." It is a web-based publication that examines the
fundamentals of artistry as they can be applied to bonsai. It is a free
resource for enthusiasts on the web. Hope you enjoy it.
www.bonsai365.com/book/index.html

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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Andy,

Great job, thanks for sharing.

Dennis Howke

Andy Rutledge wrote:

Hi all,

I've put together and have published a web-book - "Artistic Foundations of
Bonsai Design." It is a web-based publication that examines the
fundamentals of artistry as they can be applied to bonsai. It is a free
resource for enthusiasts on the web. Hope you enjoy it.
www.bonsai365.com/book/index.html

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

************************************************* *******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************* *******************************


-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --


+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++




************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Andy Rutledge wrote:

Hi all,

I've put together and have published a web-book - "Artistic Foundations of
Bonsai Design." It is a web-based publication that examines the
fundamentals of artistry as they can be applied to bonsai. It is a free
resource for enthusiasts on the web. Hope you enjoy it.
www.bonsai365.com/book/index.html

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

The examples offered in photographs and graphics are good, but the book is marred
by an overly strident and defensive style. IMHO.

Craig Cowing
NY
zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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The examples offered in photographs and graphics are good, but
the book is marred
by an overly strident and defensive style. IMHO.


Suggestion: Let's not go here . . . at least not on the list.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL -- Bonsai List
manager

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
The examples offered in photographs and graphics are good, but
the book is marred
by an overly strident and defensive style. IMHO.
------------------
Suggestion: Let's not go here . . . at least not on the list.
Jim Lewis
-----------------------------------------------------------

That's okay, Jim. Craig is right, in some measure. That's what I was
aiming at (the strident part) and the defensiveness is something that might
surely be inferred - if for no other reason than the stridency. Not that I
necessarily agree with that, but I'm biased.

I'm okay with that, though. Not so sure about the "marred" part, though. I
think perhaps "characterized" is rather a better word. ;-) JMO.

Fundamentals should be presented as a strict and narrow road. There can be
no room for much fluidity and malleability when learning "rules" (gosh I
hate that word). These were just the tip of the iceberg, the shallow end of
the art pool. There's so much more to this than could be covered in even a
very thick book. A series of thick books, maybe. But then, once you get the
basics down, there is little reason to go quantifying all of the myriad
variations and permutations that can embody artistry. That's part of the
point, I guess.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Andy Rutledge wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
The examples offered in photographs and graphics are good, but
the book is marred
by an overly strident and defensive style. IMHO.
------------------
Suggestion: Let's not go here . . . at least not on the list.
Jim Lewis
-----------------------------------------------------------

That's okay, Jim. Craig is right, in some measure. That's what I was
aiming at (the strident part)

Relax, Andy. Drink less coffee. No need to be hyper in your efforts to promote
bonsai as an art. It's a gentle art, at least the way I see it. I really don't
see much room for polemics.

and the defensiveness is something that might
surely be inferred - if for no other reason than the stridency. Not that I
necessarily agree with that, but I'm biased.


Of course you're biased. You wrote it. Now, perhaps "defensive" was not the best
term but at this point I can't really find another term to describe what I was
trying to say.


I'm okay with that, though. Not so sure about the "marred" part, though. I
think perhaps "characterized" is rather a better word. ;-) JMO.

My use of the word "marred" is intentional. What you have in the book about the
specifics of artistic principles applied to bonsai is fine, although I'd add that
I'd be interested to see how you apply these principles to your own trees,
something that most authors of books on bonsai do.

If the purpose of the book is polemical rather than simply presenting artistic
principles, then I can see why a strident style is not a defect but a means to an
end. I guess what it comes down to is that I see no need here for polemics. If
someone else doesn't see bonsai as an art, that's their problem, not mine. For me,
I do what I can to set an example.

Fundamentals should be presented as a strict and narrow road. There can be
no room for much fluidity and malleability when learning "rules" (gosh I
hate that word).

Then don't use it. ;0}

These were just the tip of the iceberg, the shallow end of
the art pool. There's so much more to this than could be covered in even a
very thick book. A series of thick books, maybe.

Clearly, it would take a tremendous effort to quantify artistic principles in
bonsai.

But then, once you get the
basics down, there is little reason to go quantifying all of the myriad
variations and permutations that can embody artistry. That's part of the
point, I guess.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Well, there isn't any need for you or any given author to qualify the possible
variations. That's up to bonsai enthusiasts to do. That's what art is. Limitless
possibilities.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I found it thought provoking but having a very western point of view, a view
which was thrown into sharp counterpoint as I am currently reading a book on
Chinese painting. Some basic tenets of western art, like originality - (and
thus communication in Andy's terms) were to the Chinese painters of quite
secondary importance and what mattered was dexterity of excecution: much
like one might get upset if a concert pianist started ad-libbing in the
middle of a Mozart piano concerto. The Chinese scholars really liked working
within a set of rules, which is why they managed to keep a civilisation
going for two thousand years.

Thus one thing I don't think the book treats well, and could definitely
benefit from, is an expansion on how cultural and individual expectations
are bound up into the concepts we call art and to analyse whether bonsai
(and penjing before it) were actually what we would consider art forms in
their original conception. We have adopted a concept out of its original
context(s) and are now trying to work out what it means when placed into a
wholly different western context. Since we don't generally have a tradition
of meditation or magic in the west, we are putting it into a catch-all
bucket we call art.

The explanation is helpful if it helps people enjoy their trees more, and I
think it will, but for me there is much more going on in the practice of
bonsai than creating an artwork - otherwise I'd go back to painting.

But anyway thanks for putting it out there,

Sean.

"Craig Cowing" wrote in message
...
Andy Rutledge wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
The examples offered in photographs and graphics are good, but
the book is marred
by an overly strident and defensive style. IMHO.
------------------
Suggestion: Let's not go here . . . at least not on the list.
Jim Lewis
-----------------------------------------------------------

That's okay, Jim. Craig is right, in some measure. That's what I was
aiming at (the strident part)

Relax, Andy. Drink less coffee. No need to be hyper in your efforts to
promote
bonsai as an art. It's a gentle art, at least the way I see it. I really
don't
see much room for polemics.

and the defensiveness is something that might
surely be inferred - if for no other reason than the stridency. Not
that I
necessarily agree with that, but I'm biased.


Of course you're biased. You wrote it. Now, perhaps "defensive" was not
the best
term but at this point I can't really find another term to describe what I
was
trying to say.


I'm okay with that, though. Not so sure about the "marred" part,
though. I
think perhaps "characterized" is rather a better word. ;-) JMO.

My use of the word "marred" is intentional. What you have in the book
about the
specifics of artistic principles applied to bonsai is fine, although I'd
add that
I'd be interested to see how you apply these principles to your own trees,
something that most authors of books on bonsai do.

If the purpose of the book is polemical rather than simply presenting
artistic
principles, then I can see why a strident style is not a defect but a
means to an
end. I guess what it comes down to is that I see no need here for
polemics. If
someone else doesn't see bonsai as an art, that's their problem, not mine.
For me,
I do what I can to set an example.

Fundamentals should be presented as a strict and narrow road. There can
be
no room for much fluidity and malleability when learning "rules" (gosh I
hate that word).

Then don't use it. ;0}

These were just the tip of the iceberg, the shallow end of
the art pool. There's so much more to this than could be covered in
even a
very thick book. A series of thick books, maybe.

Clearly, it would take a tremendous effort to quantify artistic principles
in
bonsai.

But then, once you get the
basics down, there is little reason to go quantifying all of the myriad
variations and permutations that can embody artistry. That's part of
the
point, I guess.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Well, there isn't any need for you or any given author to qualify the
possible
variations. That's up to bonsai enthusiasts to do. That's what art is.
Limitless
possibilities.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
Relax, Andy. Drink less coffee. No need to be hyper in your efforts to
promote
bonsai as an art. It's a gentle art, at least the way I see it. I really
don't
see much room for polemics.
-----------------

Sure. I guess I'm not tuned in to the hyperactivity and polemics you're
referring to.
-----------------

My use of the word "marred" is intentional. What you have in the book
about the
specifics of artistic principles applied to bonsai is fine, although I'd
add that
I'd be interested to see how you apply these principles to your own trees,
something that most authors of books on bonsai do.
-----------------

I agree. I did use 2 of my trees in 4 of the examples. One of the trees
involves a before/after restyling that was covered in the extensive article
from BTOJ. The principles covered there are directly related to and
supported by the elements covered in the book. Like most enthusiasts, I use
my own trees for exercises of artistry, but like with most enthusiasts, some
are not the kind of material that lend themselves to high artistry. ;-)

I could have used more of my trees, of course, but I opted instead for the
highest quality material in the photos. These higher quality bonsai also
show the contrast better (great material, poor composition).
-----------------

If the purpose of the book is polemical rather than simply presenting
artistic
principles, then I can see why a strident style is not a defect but a
means to an
end. I guess what it comes down to is that I see no need here for
polemics. If
someone else doesn't see bonsai as an art, that's their problem, not mine.
For me,
I do what I can to set an example.
-----------------

Again, contrary to your assumption, the book was not an exercise at
polemics. It was meant to address elements of our endeavor that have not,
IMO, been adequately covered in bonsai texts. If it were only meant to be
argumentative I would have contrasted my points with specifics offered in
those other texts rather than merely present information and examination.
Other bonsai texts are not bad. They're different. This one is, likewise,
different. The style of presentation was intentionally passionate, but this
in no way makes it argumentative or an attempt at controversy. I'm sorry,
but I just don't see where you're getting this idea or where you are going
with this. Now who's being polemic? ;-)
-----------------

Clearly, it would take a tremendous effort to quantify artistic principles
in
bonsai.
Well, there isn't any need for you or any given author to qualify the
possible
variations. That's up to bonsai enthusiasts to do. That's what art is.
Limitless
possibilities.
Craig Cowing
------------------

Exactly my point of my statement to which you're replying. I'm glad that we
end on a note of accord. Take care.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hi Sean,

Thanks for your thoughtful response and observations. You are correct in
that my text did not address the concepts inherent in (or stay within the
strictures of) penjing. It is important, I believe, that we not generalize
bonsai and penjing as the same thing. They are not. Bonsai presupposes a
host of issues that penjing is not at all concerned with. This was
definitely a "bonsai" book.

As for what bonsai or penjing began as, they are not relevant to this
treatment either. This is a contemporary text for a contemporary art. If
it does not apply to your pursuits with potted trees, I can understand, but
then, it was not meant to (if that is the case).

I would caution you, however, not to confuse "artistic" concerns with
"western" ideals. The things I examine in the book are the "lingua franca"
of contemporary bonsai as practiced in Japan. The top Japanese artists are
"artists" as we Westerners understand the term. There is, of course, a
conspicuous difference between Japanese and Chinese traditions with respect
to potted tree art. This has to be recognized in any examination of the
endeavor and my book was only concerned with "bonsai."

Thanks for your thoughts, however. I know that I'm not the guy to write
anything that has to do with penjing. I don't practice penjing and have not
studied penjing. Them's the breaks. ;-)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Hayes"
I found it thought provoking but having a very western point of view, a
view
which was thrown into sharp counterpoint as I am currently reading a book
on
Chinese painting. Some basic tenets of western art, like originality -
(and
thus communication in Andy's terms) were to the Chinese painters of quite
secondary importance and what mattered was dexterity of excecution: much
like one might get upset if a concert pianist started ad-libbing in the
middle of a Mozart piano concerto. The Chinese scholars really liked
working
within a set of rules, which is why they managed to keep a civilisation
going for two thousand years.
Thus one thing I don't think the book treats well, and could definitely
benefit from, is an expansion on how cultural and individual expectations
are bound up into the concepts we call art and to analyse whether bonsai
(and penjing before it) were actually what we would consider art forms in
their original conception. We have adopted a concept out of its original
context(s) and are now trying to work out what it means when placed into a
wholly different western context. Since we don't generally have a
tradition
of meditation or magic in the west, we are putting it into a catch-all
bucket we call art.
The explanation is helpful if it helps people enjoy their trees more, and
I
think it will, but for me there is much more going on in the practice of
bonsai than creating an artwork - otherwise I'd go back to painting.
But anyway thanks for putting it out there,
Sean.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Andy:

I've put together and have published a web-book - "Artistic Foundations of
Bonsai Design."

www.bonsai365.com/book/index.html

In your caveats, you say that the book isn't for those just starting out.
I'm a complete neophyte, but I still found your book informative. I've read
other bonsai books to get an introduction, but yours did a good job pulling
together the reasons for the rules for me. Your book helped the rules make
sense to me. Thanks!


Eric

after watching all the hoopla and comments after
posting to share the 'book'...the educator in me
has to say...andy, do you like what you've made?...
and if you do, then whoo hooooo...that's what counts...
if it helped you to MAKE it...then purpose served...
and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it.
period.
smiles,
alicia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 2:18 PM
Subject: [IBC] New Bonsai Design Book


----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
Relax, Andy. Drink less coffee. No need to be hyper in your efforts to
promote
bonsai as an art. It's a gentle art, at least the way I see it. I
really
don't
see much room for polemics.
-----------------

Sure. I guess I'm not tuned in to the hyperactivity and polemics you're
referring to.
-----------------

My use of the word "marred" is intentional. What you have in the book
about the
specifics of artistic principles applied to bonsai is fine, although I'd
add that
I'd be interested to see how you apply these principles to your own
trees,
something that most authors of books on bonsai do.
-----------------

I agree. I did use 2 of my trees in 4 of the examples. One of the trees
involves a before/after restyling that was covered in the extensive
article
from BTOJ. The principles covered there are directly related to and
supported by the elements covered in the book. Like most enthusiasts, I
use
my own trees for exercises of artistry, but like with most enthusiasts,
some
are not the kind of material that lend themselves to high artistry. ;-)

I could have used more of my trees, of course, but I opted instead for the
highest quality material in the photos. These higher quality bonsai also
show the contrast better (great material, poor composition).
-----------------

If the purpose of the book is polemical rather than simply presenting
artistic
principles, then I can see why a strident style is not a defect but a
means to an
end. I guess what it comes down to is that I see no need here for
polemics. If
someone else doesn't see bonsai as an art, that's their problem, not
mine.
For me,
I do what I can to set an example.
-----------------

Again, contrary to your assumption, the book was not an exercise at
polemics. It was meant to address elements of our endeavor that have not,
IMO, been adequately covered in bonsai texts. If it were only meant to be
argumentative I would have contrasted my points with specifics offered in
those other texts rather than merely present information and examination.
Other bonsai texts are not bad. They're different. This one is,
likewise,
different. The style of presentation was intentionally passionate, but
this
in no way makes it argumentative or an attempt at controversy. I'm sorry,
but I just don't see where you're getting this idea or where you are going
with this. Now who's being polemic? ;-)
-----------------

Clearly, it would take a tremendous effort to quantify artistic
principles
in
bonsai.
Well, there isn't any need for you or any given author to qualify the
possible
variations. That's up to bonsai enthusiasts to do. That's what art is.
Limitless
possibilities.
Craig Cowing
------------------

Exactly my point of my statement to which you're replying. I'm glad that
we
end on a note of accord. Take care.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hi Alicia,

Thanks for your thoughts. I have to confess that I'm far more interested in
how useful and accurate my work is rather than how much I like it
personally. Of course I like it, but I'd not say "that's what counts." In
this case, since it was written not for me but for other enthusiasts, what
other people think about it is pretty much the whole ball game. If others
don't like it, whatever educational value it might have will be moot.

I agree that there are many things that we do that we should find importance
in how "we" appreciate the effort or the result. A book meant to offer
instruction and insight to others is not one of them, I think. JMO.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "alicia-dr-hankins"
after watching all the hoopla and comments after
posting to share the 'book'...the educator in me
has to say...andy, do you like what you've made?...
and if you do, then whoo hooooo...that's what counts...
if it helped you to MAKE it...then purpose served...
and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it.
period.
smiles,
alicia

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

What Alicia said !
I'm a relative newbie ... very passionate about it .. in need of
guidance and some rules. I also don't want to spend a whole lot of
money. Thank you for your hard work, sir !


(Andy Rutledge) wrote in message news:001a01c3aabf$da23a370$0c0110ac@andy...
Hi Alicia,

Thanks for your thoughts. I have to confess that I'm far more interested in
how useful and accurate my work is rather than how much I like it
personally. Of course I like it, but I'd not say "that's what counts." In
this case, since it was written not for me but for other enthusiasts, what
other people think about it is pretty much the whole ball game. If others
don't like it, whatever educational value it might have will be moot.

I agree that there are many things that we do that we should find importance
in how "we" appreciate the effort or the result. A book meant to offer
instruction and insight to others is not one of them, I think. JMO.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "alicia-dr-hankins"
after watching all the hoopla and comments after
posting to share the 'book'...the educator in me
has to say...andy, do you like what you've made?...
and if you do, then whoo hooooo...that's what counts...
if it helped you to MAKE it...then purpose served...
and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it.
period.
smiles,
alicia

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Carl Rosner++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++