Yeah, Jim, the word should be written:
"MICRO-elements", so that everyone would know that the emphasis is on first
syllable.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:29 AM
Subject: [IBC] Microelemnts


On 21 Nov 2004 at 9:58, Theo wrote:

Hi
I normally give some microelements mixed with the repotting soil
and sometimes I sprinkle some this period of the year on the surface
but when is the best period and how often shouldl micro elements be
given to the bonsai ?
once per ear twice ? more often ..
I agree it all depends about the retention of the soil and the washing
of the same for strong rains
any advice?
Thanks

The best way is to fertilize with a fertilizer that already
contains microelements, since trees need and use them all year
long (even hibernating trees need their sustenance).

But they don't need MUCH of any one of them -- fractions of a
percent per unit of fertilizer/water -- and adding microelements
yourself to trees in small pots can easily overdose them.

Once a year, assuming your bonsai soil is a free-draining mix
would be far to little; the stuff would vanish in a day or two,
and I do not know how efficiently trees' roots take up the minor
elements.

So, I'd recommend a fertilizer that contains it all so that your
trees have what they need throughout the year.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests
are like genealogists: We know our roots!

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I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate. Bonsai represent a special way of raising plants without
natural soil. In such a situation, micronutrients are necessary all
year long because the trees have no way to get them unless they are
added exogenously. Since bonsai soils don't store much nutrient, the
fertilizer needs to be added all the time.

NPK fertilizers are meant to add the top 3 limiting nutrients to soils
that otherwise DO NOT LACK for fertility. I always use a full
fertilizer complement with my bonsai because I keep them in turface,
bark and grani-grit, a mixture that lacks micronutrients.

Nina, who is putting her trees in winter storage, except that crummy
abutilon and her pathetic collection of indoor bonsai.

On 23 Nov 2004 at 8:05, Nina Shishkoff wrote:

I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate.

Wow! It had to happen sometime! ;-)

But I know why . . . It's 'cause we're basically "garden
people."

Garden people have never ever been able to pass up the "majic"
elixir of the day, week, month, year, or millennium. If it
promises pumpkins you can make a coach and four out of they'll
buy two batches!

And then, of course, they have to pass this "secret" on to their
neighbors. That's how Superthrive (among others) stays in
business.

So many products are sold to home gardeners under totally false
premises (if not pretenses) that there oughta be a law.

Buyer beware!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Nina

I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to
the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse
ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides
the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is
there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use
coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the
plants grow well. Yes we do provide the three meals i.e. breakfast, lunch
and dinner. I add organic fertilizer *Sterameal* which is a mixture of
bonemeal, hornmeal, hoofmeal, bloodmeal and some more organic ingredients;
three times a year, once in spring second time in mid summer and then in
autumn. Being a slow release fertilizer, it dissolves slowly providing macro
as well as micro elements.

Please answer the first sentence.

Regards

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"



I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate. Bonsai represent a special way of raising plants without
natural soil. In such a situation, micronutrients are necessary all
year long because the trees have no way to get them unless they are
added exogenously. Since bonsai soils don't store much nutrient, the
fertilizer needs to be added all the time.

NPK fertilizers are meant to add the top 3 limiting nutrients to soils
that otherwise DO NOT LACK for fertility. I always use a full
fertilizer complement with my bonsai because I keep them in turface,
bark and grani-grit, a mixture that lacks micronutrients.

Nina, who is putting her trees in winter storage, except that crummy
abutilon and her pathetic collection of indoor bonsai.


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++

************************************************** **************************
****
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


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************************************************** ******************************
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I guess the climate is different as well the species of trees you grow
and their growing season , most probaly is all year round, or more
than in cold climates like Ny or north europe

Anil Kaushik wrote:

Nina

I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to
the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse
ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides
the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is
there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use
coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the
plants grow well. Yes we do provide the three meals i.e. breakfast, lunch
and dinner. I add organic fertilizer *Sterameal* which is a mixture of
bonemeal, hornmeal, hoofmeal, bloodmeal and some more organic ingredients;
three times a year, once in spring second time in mid summer and then in
autumn. Being a slow release fertilizer, it dissolves slowly providing macro
as well as micro elements.

Please answer the first sentence.

Regards

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"




I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate. Bonsai represent a special way of raising plants without
natural soil. In such a situation, micronutrients are necessary all
year long because the trees have no way to get them unless they are
added exogenously. Since bonsai soils don't store much nutrient, the
fertilizer needs to be added all the time.

NPK fertilizers are meant to add the top 3 limiting nutrients to soils
that otherwise DO NOT LACK for fertility. I always use a full
fertilizer complement with my bonsai because I keep them in turface,
bark and grani-grit, a mixture that lacks micronutrients.

Nina, who is putting her trees in winter storage, except that crummy
abutilon and her pathetic collection of indoor bonsai.



************************************************** **************************
****

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****

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Anil Kaushik wrote:

Nina

I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to
the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse
ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix.

snip

Please answer the first sentence.

Regards

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"


Anil:
With the encouragement of my wife, the queen of compost, Anita Hawkins, this year I
started adding compost to my soil as part of the organic component. I have found
that *sifted* compost (note the emphasis) is not dense, but is actually very fluffy
and water still drains well from it. It is certainly not the largest part of my
soil, generally no more than about a third, but I had pretty good results this
year. The more coarse part of my soil is composted bark, turface, and gravel. I
am not as strict in measuring it as some are.

I have not had any problems with root rot, etc. that could happen if I weren't
careful. This provides, I feel, the natural organic elements that the tree is
going to look for in nature.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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HI Craig
I agree with your wife
I started making compost home made
the very best is made with oak leaves or Chestnut leaves this year I
had a huge mushroom and few small ones that come out of it
the compost is very soft and as you do I will use wuth crushed red
lava or granite 3 to 5 mm
1/3 of composta and the rest garnite or lava
I already stared with some and roots are very nice and the soil
dires accordning as you wish if you dd some bark of sequoia
I have few sequoias in my park and 2 has been cut and the bark is
available first I sterilize it in steam with microwawes and than I cut
it in small dices , according teh mix I do can take 1 week to dry


Craig Cowing wrote:

Anil Kaushik wrote:


Nina

I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to
the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse
ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix.


snip

Please answer the first sentence.

Regards

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"



Anil:
With the encouragement of my wife, the queen of compost, Anita Hawkins, this year I
started adding compost to my soil as part of the organic component. I have found
that *sifted* compost (note the emphasis) is not dense, but is actually very fluffy
and water still drains well from it. It is certainly not the largest part of my
soil, generally no more than about a third, but I had pretty good results this
year. The more coarse part of my soil is composted bark, turface, and gravel. I
am not as strict in measuring it as some are.

I have not had any problems with root rot, etc. that could happen if I weren't
careful. This provides, I feel, the natural organic elements that the tree is
going to look for in nature.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************

-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --

+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--
MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4
Private Mail :
«»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«»

Anil Kaushik wrote:


I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to
the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse
ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides
the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is
there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use
coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the
plants grow well.




Anil

There have been good responses to your question, but I believe there was
only one that was close to my feeling about why you are successful in
your regime while we have chosen our soilless route: The answer, I
believe is the difference in our climates. I am sure that it is as hard
for you to imagine what conditions are like in a temperate climate as it
is for me to comprehend growing in the tropics. None the less, I will
take a crack at it.

The species which you grow and your climate means that there is activity
of some sort year round, although I am sure there are periods of slower
growth. In temperate climates there are long periods of almost no growth
activity whatsoever. What this means is that your soil is in a constant
state of wet/dry cycling. That is, water movement is nearly continual.
Under such conditions, soil decomposition is minimal, and soil collapse
is not not much of a problem. But I do note that you repot every year or
so. At that rate of repotting, particle degradation would not be a
problem even for those of us in a temperate climate. Our repotting rates
are usually two to three years, up to ten years or more for pines. This
longer period argues for more stable constituents.

Additionally, in cold climates, the freeze/thaw cycling in winter is a
factor in particle degradation as is the lack of a proper wet/dry
cycling during the dormant season. Our soils tend to stay WET for most
of the winter, which can be as long as October through March. That is a
very long period of inactivity for a mostly inorganic soil. Use of a
stable soilless mix insures that aeration is still present during this
period, and soil composting is minimal. I seldom notice that my soil
collapses much during the growing season for healthy plants, however at
the end of a winter where we get 30 inches of rain in three or four
months, spring definitely brings signs of soil problems, notably soil
levels sinking in nursery containers.

Now of course, it is possible for us in the temperate zones to grow in a
mix similiar to yours, as it is possible for you to grow in soilless
mixes. I have never been dogmatic about soil mixes, that is why I try to
point out the principles of soil theory rather than a rigid recipe. Each
soil recipe is going to require it's own concomitant regime of watering
and other environmental care. In the tropics, yours works fine with your
cultural practices, in temperate zones we are finding that soilless
mixes work best with our cultural practices. If it works, it works. I
usually don't even question what a person uses for soil if their trees
are healthy. However, when someone isn't satisfied with the growth they
are getting, or have a declining tree, the first thing I do is examine
the soil. Most times the soil is too heavy in organic and fine material,
and so I will recommend a soilless mix. Followup has shown me that I am
usually right about this, as health and vigor improves. But this is for
our climate and our cultural practices. This is a problem in an
international forum, so the realization of such and an appropriate
disclaimer are usually helpful.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com


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On 23 Nov 2004 at 8:05, Nina Shishkoff wrote:

I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate.

Wow! It had to happen sometime! ;-)

But I know why . . . It's 'cause we're basically "garden
people."

Garden people have never ever been able to pass up the "majic"
elixir of the day, week, month, year, or millennium. If it
promises pumpkins you can make a coach and four out of they'll
buy two batches!

And then, of course, they have to pass this "secret" on to their
neighbors. That's how Superthrive (among others) stays in
business.

So many products are sold to home gardeners under totally false
premises (if not pretenses) that there oughta be a law.

Buyer beware!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++